nyrk
Innocent Bystander
Did I mention this is a rant? Sense really has no place in it.[Mo0:0]
Posts: 3 
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Post by nyrk on Mar 13, 2009 1:48:19 GMT -5
Regarding the appearance of the First as Joyce, it's interesting that, in a way, what it said did happen, only it happened in reverse. Joyce-as-The First says: In the end, Buffy won't choose you. Well, in Empty Places, isn't it Dawn that doesn't choose Buffy? She sides against her. And I feel the memory of what Joyce-as-The First had said played a part in that decision, augmenting Dawn's own insecurities and lack of trust, at that point, in her sister's judgment. Which would be the goal of the First's little charade as Joyce in CwDP.
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Skeptic
Initiative Soldier
[Mo0:24]
Posts: 344
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Post by Skeptic on Mar 13, 2009 11:20:25 GMT -5
I agree. The First was all about dividing them so that they fall, and sometimes that meant to tell the dirty truth. You know, the truth is sometimes far more painful than the alternative. And to an extent, even a great extent, it succeeded. But in the end, Buffy was able to reunite everyone under her banner and that's what defeated the First. Well, that and the Hellmouth was esploded, which put a temporary kibosh on its plans.
Telling the truth often suited the First's means. It got right to the most painful heart of the matter. In Dawn's case, it was her fear of being abandoned by Buffy (irony is funny). In Faith's case, it was her fear that Buffy would never love her. And so on. All these small little seeds of doubt and fear add up after time, and cause the First's mission be manifested on its own.
Another reason why kicking Buffy out was wrong and misguided on so, so many levels. Buffy's the only one that didn't fall for all that hooey. Sure, she wavered but in the end, she knew they were tricks and what those tricks were trying to do. Which makes it even crazier that she had to take care of these people, who later turned their back completely on her and threw her to the wolves - which is exactly what the First wanted.
This ep left me with such a raw, pissed-off feeling. I can't believe it hasn't changed even a tiny little bit since I first saw it on air!
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Post by kittyfantastico on Mar 15, 2009 13:07:45 GMT -5
Yeah, the first often does tell the truth. But I don't think there was ever any indication that it can't or won't lie.
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Post by loveisabird on Mar 15, 2009 17:06:00 GMT -5
The version that aired lost the line where Buffy says she's paid the price too, sometimes, didn't it? That was a good line. I like that line too. I hated how Buffy was made into a bitch just so they could kick her out the house in that eppy. Giles bringing up Jenny was uncalled for, it reminds me of 'Revelations' when Xander mentions Buffy not saving Jenny. I think its disgusting when the deaths of people gets blamed on Buffy  |
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Skeptic
Initiative Soldier
[Mo0:24]
Posts: 344
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Post by Skeptic on Mar 15, 2009 22:12:45 GMT -5
I've been watching a few eps from S7 tonight. I watched Conversations, and Bring On the Night, and now I'm near the end of Showtime. I have a lot of thoughts that I can't adequately sum up because I'm really wonky (pain meds) (and btw, if any of this sounds weird, that might be the reason) but, this is the gist of it:
All of their trust wavered like mad before Buffy showed them that the unstoppable ubervamps were stoppable in Showtime. Then they all backed her because she'd demonstrated her skill. She took a beating and a half to get there, but she snapped that crusty's head off in the end with a piece of wire.
If you want my opinion, nobody fought as hard or as dirty to fight off the Bringers and ubervamps, as Buffy did. Everybody just wanted to act like it really wasn't going to happen, like they all wouldn't need to be exactly that tough and bloody to get there. Some put in good effort, but I don't believe that any of them, Scoobies (and Giles) included, believed exactly what they were facing. It's one thing to read it in books, and see someone else doing it. It's quite another to actually do it.
So when it got too real for them, later in Empty Places, and they weren't organized because they didn't understand the threat and didn't train accordingly, that's when they got their mob mentality on and threw their only protector into the tiger pits.
But in Showtime, they backed her once they saw. They were afraid, and disbelieving of both the strength of what they were facing, and of Buffy's ability to kick its supernatural ass, and that's why she took such harsh measures to a) prove that ubervamps could be killed and b) prove that she knew what she was doing. Once they saw, you'd think they would have changed, though, and actually started believing that they had to get ready to fight hard and nasty, down to the last woman standing and all that... but they still behaved like a bunch of ill-organized, silly, sometimes rude, power-tripping nubs. And once Caleb came into the picture, and he really showed them the power of believing, that's when they decided it was Buffy's fault everyone was dying.
The First was very effective that way. It undermined Buffy's entire plan and made her potentials perpetually open to attack and shook her own beliefs to the core. It made her question whether or not she could go on. And it almost succeeded - and might have, if not for Spike, and to an extent, Faith, who were the only voices of reason once Buffy wasn't allowed any more.
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Post by Rebecca on Apr 10, 2009 19:43:42 GMT -5
I am definitely on Buffy's side in Empty Places, on a tactical level. She's the General. She knew that girls were going to die, which she accepted way prior to Dirty Girls in not getting close to the potentials. Giles even asked her if she could handle exactly that in Lies My Parents Told Me, but that seems to go out the window just two episodes later.
Tactically, she never said that everyone had to go, just that they had to be together in the plan. She was open to talk strategy, but they jumped on her for going forward with the mission. It's the mission that matters. That's what they didn't get.
Honestly, I cannot blame anyone in the house. I think they were manipulated by The First, playing on their fears, which made them question Buffy's decision making, question her leadership. And in that, I don't blame the writers. Why it isn't inferred by the audience that The First had its puppet strings all over that one-sided-verbal-beating is baffling to me.
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Post by Skytteflickan88 on Apr 11, 2009 8:20:26 GMT -5
In the title of this thread, it says 7-19. Why? Is it because it's the 19th episode? (I'm too lazy to count).
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Post by Wyndam on Apr 11, 2009 11:01:56 GMT -5
In the title of this thread, it says 7-19. Why? Is it because it's the 19th episode? (I'm too lazy to count). Yeah, 7-19 means Season 7 episode 19. |
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Post by Greer on Apr 11, 2009 12:50:09 GMT -5
Honestly, I cannot blame anyone in the house. I think they were manipulated by The First, playing on their fears, which made them question Buffy's decision making, question her leadership. And in that, I don't blame the writers. Why it isn't inferred by the audience that The First had its puppet strings all over that one-sided-verbal-beating is baffling to me. That's a different point that I've never thought of before. I mean, I've always been peeved at the house for kicking her out and 100% on her side, but I never thought of the First manipulating them before. Can you think of any specific examples? I think that's a really interesting opinion, IMO. (haha for the wording of that). |
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Post by Skytteflickan88 on Apr 11, 2009 13:01:10 GMT -5
I bet the First has talked to them of screen too.
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Post by Rebecca on Apr 11, 2009 15:27:12 GMT -5
By this point, the Hellmouth had gotten so "hot" with bad mojo that people were fleeing their homes. It makes sense that The First used whatever doubts the Scoobies and Potentials had about Buffy to turn them against her. You can read insecurity and doubt in each line they used against her, much baseless in the circumstance if viewed rationally.
The First is a manipulator. We saw multiple accounts of The First using people's fears and insecurities in order to push them around (i.e., Angel, Spike, Andrew, Robin, all of the Potentials with Eve, Chloe). In that scene everyone's feelings built upon each other to a boiling point. The First had this happen to beat insecurities into Buffy until she reached a new low: alone, homeless, defeated, and missionless. It was only because of Spike (who had already defied The First) that Buffy found her mission again.
In the end, we don't see The First talking to each of the Potentials and Scoobies, but with all that bad mojo around Sunnydale, it makes sense that one-on-one conversations wouldn't be necessary at that point. I'm busy right now and can't go through that transcript to point out insecurites the First played on for each character, but I might do that later if there's interest.
EDIT: On second (or third, fourth) thought, I'm putting something together with lines from the transcript. I'll post later tonight.
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Post by Greer on Apr 11, 2009 19:06:04 GMT -5
Rebecca,
It's starting to make a lot more sense now. I wonder if there were ever any lines/scenes with The First in it, and what they were? Hmm...this is a really good theory/idea.
I'm looking forward to reading it and then interpreting it from my end too.
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Post by Rebecca on Apr 11, 2009 20:04:40 GMT -5
Upon review, it is never blatantly said that The First manipulates the Scoobies and Potentials to kick Buffy out of the house. I am mostly reading subtext. I also read the house conversation with the idea that both Faith and Buffy are less affected by this Hellmouth mojo. They are acting like themselves in this environment and everyone else has their fears and doubts augmented by The First.
The First uses manipulation on insecurities, fears, doubts, and anxieties toward an end goal. There are many examples of this, most of which are The First taking the non-corporeal form of a deceased person and talking to them. However in Empty Places, we see the effect of the Hellmouth. People and demons alike are fleeing the area, and those who didn’t acted with augmented fear and anxiety. For example the policemen:
Arguably, none of these officers would have acted so if it were not for the Hellmouth being all Hellmouthy.
I think it’s important to note what I believe the motive was for The First, to separate her from her friends. The First clearly expected and wanted Buffy to attack the Seal of Danzelthar/Hellmouth with the Potentials.
The First wanted Buffy to lead the Potentials against the Seal, knowing full well that the Scythe was at the vineyard, which it planned to exploit. As soon as Buffy reveals that she intends to attack the vineyard, the Scoobies and Potentials jump on her rationality instead of working with her to refine an actual plan. They had fears and anxiety definitely, who could blame them? But it was out of character for them to go so far as they did, just like the policemen. One could say it was just the Seal/Hellmouth, but The First clearly had motive to keep her from the vineyard. And who controls the Hellmouth?
Like I said before, it’s never blatantly said that The First manipulated their emotions to keep them from the vineyard. It's just my interpretation of the episode.
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Post by Greer on Apr 12, 2009 7:53:17 GMT -5
That really makes a lot of sense; I've never really thought twice regarding the policemen before. Who knows how The First appeared to them, whether it was the First masquerading as someone or it sent an agent there. We all know that it can send itself to people and become whatever they respect, love, or fear; so that totally explains why they went crazy on Faith; I like that theory better than the Hellmouth being all cranky(even though it is technically acting via The First).
I also like how you pointed out that it didn't affect Buffy & Faith very much, if at all. I never saw the crazy Hellmouthish things that took effect in the others. We all know that they could've been manipulated in ways that we were unaware of(i.e. The First could've come to Dawn as Joyce and I bet you that Dawn wouldn't have wanted her to go anywhere; the end story is, it could've manipulated everyone to its own liking).
Excellent interpretation, I really enjoyed seeing a different perspective of this episode.
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Post by Rebecca on Apr 12, 2009 12:34:16 GMT -5
Thanks, I always appreciate positive feedback  One thing though, I didn't interpret The First actually appearing as a form or sending an Agent to get their emotions roaring. It was evident to me from memories of the episode and re-reading transcripts that it was the Hellmouth's power affecting people's fear, almost as an Agent of The First itself. This episode was the first time we'd seen the Hellmouth's power grow so strong, and I don't think it's a coincidence that the Scoobies acted so OOC while this was all going on, playing right into The First's hands. |
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Nicholas
Descendant of a Toaster Oven
One Good Scare
Tonight I'm Dancing.[Mo0:16]
Posts: 656
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Post by Nicholas on Apr 17, 2009 13:03:11 GMT -5
I think the First was doing exactly what they needed to do, with making Buffy's group doubt her, and considering the amount of damage that Caleb did to the lot the last time, they knew they shouldnt go there again. It was set up perfectly because frankly, I believe that the group was right in saying that Buffy needed to back down and regroup. Although Buffy was right when she said that caleb was guarding something, her being kicked out and spending the night with Spike needed to happen in order for her to realize that she alone needed to go into the Vineyard.
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