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Post by hitnrun017 on Mar 20, 2009 14:00:21 GMT -5
I'm happy Buffy died instead of being turned, but I think that would have been a pretty cool story. Lots of issues could have been brought up. What would Buffy be like? Will the gang have to kill her? I'd imagine it sort of being like Gunn in After the Fall. It could've worked well, would've made an interesting episode arc until they gang figured out how to fix her.
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Post by snizapman6294 on Mar 21, 2009 19:28:08 GMT -5
i totally agree, but i fell like joss would've spun it like since buffy's a slayer, she automatically has a soul when turned or something to that effect.
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Saturn 5
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Post by Saturn 5 on Mar 22, 2009 5:13:41 GMT -5
In Nightmares Buffy is turned into a vampire but she's still Buffy so maybe Slayers can't really be ever fully turned
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Joe
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Post by Joe on Mar 22, 2009 7:25:01 GMT -5
In Nightmares Buffy is turned into a vampire but she's still Buffy so maybe Slayers can't really be ever fully turned In Nightmares she was able to control herself but she mentioned a couple times that she was "getting hungry". It might have been a battle with herself that season trying to quench her hunger. |
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Post by Greer on Mar 22, 2009 8:17:25 GMT -5
In Nightmares Buffy is turned into a vampire but she's still Buffy so maybe Slayers can't really be ever fully turned I know that I've heard of Slayers being turned in non-canon lit of Buffy, but I wonder if in canon they can't be turned. That would still be a final way of resisting the evil, like there was some non-soul-take-away if a Slayer was turned. As Xander says, the "Nya na na na na" approach(it looks funny when I type it, just say it  I wonder why that was never brought up in the whole 7 seasons of Buffy. That would've been an interesting battle, especially to see if the Slayer's powers got bumped up because she would've turned undead. |
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Post by Skytteflickan88 on Mar 23, 2009 13:33:50 GMT -5
I wouldn't have thought a vampire slayer could ever be turned truly as their soul's are already inhabited part demon. Is there for any specific reason you think that the slayer essence effects/is a part of Buffy's soul? I just assumed that in a human body, you can have both a soul and demon-essence(possibly several of both), that they are two different things. And I think there's a difference between a demon like the the Dark Age-demon and Angel's demon. It's like, the dark age demon was a person but the vampire demon is just a infection. Not sure how to explain it. I think that Buffy could be turned, because her slayer-demon isn't a person, it has no conscience. |
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Post by Skytteflickan88 on Mar 24, 2009 13:49:03 GMT -5
Does any demon have a conscience. Lorne. Of course, he might not be a "full demon", but he isn't human, and still has a conscience. |
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Paul
Ensouled Vampire
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Post by Paul on Mar 24, 2009 15:56:52 GMT -5
Well and Clem thinking back.... Ok so that statement has been trumpted. Does Clem really have a conscience? I mean, I know he's a nice guy but he also eats kittens and socialises with vampires. I think Clem was a nuetral demon who was always on his best behaviour because the Slayer lived in town. |
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Post by Skytteflickan88 on Mar 24, 2009 16:01:44 GMT -5
I think Clem was nice to the people who were nice to him (although he seems to be okay with Harmony trying to bite him to death). He doesn't seem to be the judging type.
I'm not sure if that means that he doesn't care about anyone or that he cares about everyone or that he just cares about the people who are nice to him.
But he did hang out with Spike, a bloodthirsty killer. And now Harmony. So he probably doesn't value human life that much.
Let's just say that I don't want him dead, but I'd be careful around him, in case one of his demon buddies wants a snack and he decides to be nice to his buddy and brings me to him.
About eating kittens, ewww, but hey, I eat cows so I can't say "Don't do that".
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Paul
Ensouled Vampire
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Post by Paul on Mar 24, 2009 17:08:28 GMT -5
I'd compare him to Harmony; she's "technically evil" but controls herself when around Angel. That might be why Clem and Harm get on so well, neither of them are very good at being evil.
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Post by Greer on Mar 25, 2009 12:23:02 GMT -5
I take that just as the generalization that all humans are 'technically good' and all demons are 'technically evil'. Of course there's going to be some variation amongst each category, with exceptions to the rules of demons(i.e. Doyle) and humans(i.e. Billy), but each is variable still.
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Post by Skytteflickan88 on Mar 25, 2009 12:30:10 GMT -5
I'm not sure exactly what Paul meant, but if he meant that Harmony's "technically evil", in the way that she does evil things just because they're evil (like in Disharmony and Real Me) and betrays her boss to his enemy, then yeah, she's evil. She's bad at being evil, but it's the (evil) thought that counts.
I'm not sure of the exact definition of the word "technically" tough....
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Post by Greer on Mar 25, 2009 20:31:33 GMT -5
True. She does say she's evil, i.e. the reason for why she betrayed Angel in "Not Fade Away" with the telling of his secret plan. Clem seems more conscious of his actions, in a way. I don't know if he had to make any moral decisions, I mean he played Kitten poker and left Sunnydale, and then hung out with Harmony, but were there any times when he needed to make a right or wrong decision? I don't know.
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Just Willow
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Post by Just Willow on Apr 1, 2009 22:50:42 GMT -5
*jumps in*
I know an early draft of Bargaining 1 & 2 was that the gang would have to travel to hell to bring Buffy back, but they scrapped it when they decided Buffy was going to be in heaven.
all that stuff with Willow seeing Tara again sounds beautiful. i would have loved to see that so much!
for the Doyle being evil, they couldn't have done that even if they wanted to. Glenn Quinn died. The actor himself died not too long after his character did.
I'm glad the Gift stayed as it is. Buffy being turned, Faith dying, Xander evil? i'm not a fan of that plot. Epic, i'm sure it would be, but i wouldn't enjoy it as much as i did the actual version.
As for bringing Tara back with a wish. WHY DIDN'T THEY DO THAT!? it would have been incredible. I can honestly see the look on Alyson Hannigan's face as she turns around and sees Tara standing there. Wow, it's making me cry, and they never even did it!
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Paul
Ensouled Vampire
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Post by Paul on Apr 1, 2009 23:29:28 GMT -5
So all demons are 'technically evil' to you? No, not at all, some demons are entirely benevolent. Lorne, for example, proved to be very much the hero. But just because a demon is friendly doesn't mean they're not evil. Skip and D'Hoffryn, for example, disarmed us with their charming personalities before reminding us how evil they are. Most fans seem to assume Clem is a good demon when we actually know very little about him. I'm not saying he's not a nice guy, but in the Buffyverse that doesn't mean he isn't a little bit evil on the side.  He never really displayed a conscience beyond "Uh oh, the Slayer's here, I'd better play nice..." As for bringing Tara back with a wish. WHY DIDN'T THEY DO THAT!? it would have been incredible. I can honestly see the look on Alyson Hannigan's face as she turns around and sees Tara standing there. Wow, it's making me cry, and they never even did it! I believe Amber Benson wanted to leave Tara's memory alone. Or she was working on another project. I don't know, the reasons vary... IMO, the whole storyline with Kennedy and struggling with the guilt of moving on was far superior to the proposed "Oh yay, Tara's alive again!" idea. But I know you don't agree.  |
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Post by Skytteflickan88 on Apr 2, 2009 5:17:17 GMT -5
I believe Amber Benson wanted to leave Tara's memory alone. Or she was working on another project. I don't know, the reasons vary... I think for the The First appearances, she said no, because she didn't want to hurt the fans, and for Chosen she was busy. But I don't know where I have the interview to prove it... |
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Paul
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Post by Paul on Apr 2, 2009 8:50:11 GMT -5
I believe Amber Benson wanted to leave Tara's memory alone. Or she was working on another project. I don't know, the reasons vary... I think for the The First appearances, she said no, because she didn't want to hurt the fans, and for Chosen she was busy. But I don't know where I have the interview to prove it... Yeah, I know she definitely didn't want to do "Conversations..." because she thought it would upset the fans to see Tara being evil. Screw the sensitive fans, Tara as the First would have been terrifying and would have made that episode so much better... :broody: As for her later appearances, I don't know what her exact reasons were for not returning. Like I said, I think it was for the best anyway.  |
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stakey
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Post by stakey on Apr 2, 2009 9:35:16 GMT -5
As much as I LOVE Tara and HATE Kennedy, im glad they didnt do the whole spell thing to bring Tara back.
In my eyes it would have been a cheap effect, nullifying the end of season 6 and making The Killer In Me a complete waste of time.
People die, they dont come back. I like it when fantasy shows do keep to this fact, it makes it more relateable and gives room for more character developement such as Willow dealing with her grief.
As an audience we can align ourselves far better with the character of Willow at Taras grave crying in 'Help' compared to her reaction when her dead loved one just waltzs into the room and being all 'Im Back!'
The only really good point in the whole idea I think is Buffy giving her wish over to make someone else happy. I find that idea more moving and interesting than just Oh yay Tara is back.
So yeh, Love Tara etc...but Im glad that idea was scrapped. Plus it would have taken up more screen time which was desperately needed to show Buffy and her planning of the final battle etc.
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Paul
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Post by Paul on Apr 2, 2009 9:56:23 GMT -5
As much as I LOVE Tara and HATE Kennedy, im glad they didnt do the whole spell thing to bring Tara back. In my eyes it would have been a cheap effect, nullifying the end of season 6 and making The Killer In Me a complete waste of time. People die, they dont come back. I like it when fantasy shows do keep to this fact, it makes it more relateable and gives room for more character developement such as Willow dealing with her grief. As an audience we can align ourselves far better with the character of Willow at Taras grave crying in 'Help' compared to her reaction when her dead loved one just waltzs into the room and being all 'Im Back!' The only really good point in the whole idea I think is Buffy giving her wish over to make someone else happy. I find that idea more moving and interesting than just Oh yay Tara is back. So yeh, Love Tara etc...but Im glad that idea was scrapped. Plus it would have taken up more screen time which was desperately needed to show Buffy and her planning of the final battle etc. I agree that the way they planned to bring back Tara was cheap for a number of reasons. First of all, I seriously doubt that Buffy, of all people, would force someone back to life when they were at peace. Especially Tara, who respected the laws of nature and magic more than anyone. Also, the idea that she would just pop back to life with no negative consequences after months of being dead and everything Willow went through is just way too easy. Your example of crying-graveside-Willow being more relatable than that happy-reunited-Willow is true. I'm not saying fantasy characters should never be resurrected, but Willow working through her grief is a far more mature and powerful storyline. "The Killer in Me" is such an underrated episode and one of the best in season seven, if not the entire show. I also agree that, while I wasn't a fan of the Tara resurrection concept, the fact that Buffy would be so kind and selfless as to bring back her friend's soulmate with her only wish is so heartwarming. That's really the only redeeming part of that idea. Btw, you say that bringing back Tara would nullify "The Killer in Me"... I always got the impression that Kennedy and that storyline were only created after Joss learned they couldn't get Amber. If Tara had come back, I don't think Kennedy would ever have existed...  |
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Just Willow
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Post by Just Willow on Apr 2, 2009 12:20:13 GMT -5
I don't think Kennedy would ever have existed... which would have beena big plus for everyone. But yeah, i guess bringing her back would have been a little lame. And i loved Conversations the way it was. I really liked how they said Willow couldn't see her because she killed people. It really brings into light the consequences of actions. |
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