Joss-less Buffy 'Reboot' = BIG BAD!

[dravenuk]

Nov 23, 2010 20:52:13 GMT -5 Shane said:

I'm not approaching this as Buffy, the show. It's how a fan of the show got inspired by the character and wants to get her version of the character (albeit under different circumstances) produced. She didn't mention Season 8 so I don't think she considers that part of Buffy's journey, which a lot of people don't.

And this is what annoys me. Who the hell is she to think she has the right to get ‘her version’ of Buffy on screen? She should either approach Joss or just stick to writing fan fiction to express her Buffy related ideas. Better still she should just go off and create something of her own rather than feeding off of the still living body of something she purports to love. At the very least she should speak to Joss and try and come to some understanding, get some input and advice. That at least would be common courtesy when you are about to seriously mess with someone else’s creation.

And as for the Season 8 thing… It is canon whether people like it or not. It is the official Joss and Fox sanctioned continuation of the TV show in comic form. People can choose to not read it and to ignore it, and that’s fine, but it doesn’t change the simple fact that it is official Buffy canon just as much as seasons 1 through 7.

Nov 23, 2010 20:52:13 GMT -5 Shane said:

Still skeptical, though. What would be the draw? I fear a lot of the script will be twisted to capitalize on the vampire craze. If there was a huge Buffy/slayer craze going around I'd be more welcoming.

I agree. I just don’t see the point…apart from a cynical cash grab. This reeks of Twilight/True Blood cash in to me. I’d be amazed if there ends up being anything remotely recognisable of Buffy. And the sad thing is if it’s successful it will become the definitive version of the character and could well spell the end for Joss’s Buffy in comics or elsewhere.

Nov 23, 2010 20:52:13 GMT -5 Shane said:

Nov 23, 2010 10:02:35 GMT -5 dravenuk said:

I'm not morally opposed to remakes or reboots...but only when there is artistic merit. Not just for pure financial gain. Joss is right. Buffy should live on after him. A reboot in the distant future post-joss would be fine. But to actively do it while the guy is still writing his Buffy and while its fandom is still so big and active and vocal is crazy and disrespectful to Joss and to the millions of fans around the world. It comes across as just a cynical, ill timed cash grab.

Agreed. But if the studios are willing to take a chance on it then it has potential and at least some artistic merit (which comes in all forms). I just hope it doesn't become something other than what Joss meant it to be.

I struggle to see any potential for artistic merit, only cold, hard financial gain. However, I admit I could be wrong and it might end up as a perfectly good movie in its own right. It just won’t be Buffy. Buffy to me is intrinsically linked to Joss. Anything else using the name to make money is just a phoney, an imitation. As I said earlier, once Joss is dead and gone then others are free to reinterpret Buffy as they see fit. Prior to that, the very least they should do is to consult him, work with him and receive his blessing in the same way Paramount dealt with the Trek franchise when Roddenberry was still around. He might not have been running it but he was still involved, still a consultant, still giving his blessing.

Nov 23, 2010 20:52:13 GMT -5 Shane said:

And for a lot of people he already left when the show ended. It's not gaining much popularity (?) so this could turn out to be a good thing. I keep separate versions of Buffy and I don't see this as part of Joss's Buffy.

Problem is, to me, Joss and Buffy are intrinsically linked. She’s his avatar as he once said himself.

And when Buffy ended, Joss was still involved. He was still working on Angel and there were other related Buffyverse things going on which needed his ultimate approval – novels, comics etc.

And I disagree about it not gaining much popularity. I always find it heartening to come here and find so many young people, kids, teens, who only discovered Buffy fairly recently and have become massive fans. The season 8 comics have been a big sales success and won awards and critical acclaim. And the show is continually repeated here in the UK on SyFy and FX with active forums and blogs online. Plus it is constantly turning up in lists of the best this that or the other. Earlier this year the UK's SFX Magazine's online poll for the top 25 TV shows of all time had Buffy at number two (Doctor Who was number one). In 2008, Empire magazine conducted a poll of the top 50 shows of all time. Buffy came number 2 behind The Simpsons. Also in 2008, Buff jumping to her death at the end of 'The Gift' won the Emmy for most dramatic TV moment of all time. The fandom is big and continues to grow. People tend not just to like Buffy; they tend to love it with a passion.

Interesting to note how this is making news in even the ‘serious’ broadsheet papers such as the UK’s The Guardian, which so far has four separate articles about the reboot since yesterday. Overall opinion from article comments is highly negative just as they seem to be right across the web. It’s actually rather heartening in times like this. You get to hear from people, sometimes people you didn’t expect (including some people at work who I didn’t know were fans), about how much they love the show, what it means to them.
www.guardian.co.uk/film/2010/nov/23/buffy-rises-again-new-film?intcmp=239

On a side note…

By coincidence I was watching the BBC’s arts review show last Friday night called boringly ‘The Review Show’ and Buffy was name checked. The context was the new Harry Potter film and modern mythologies. One of the panel members (a panel made up of serious writers and academics) encouraged the others to watch Buffy as a really good example of a modern mythology done well. I gave a little cheer. Yay for the Bufster.

[jellymoff]

Nov 24, 2010 10:09:21 GMT -5 dravenuk said:

And this is what annoys me. Who the hell is she to think she has the right to get ‘her version’ of Buffy on screen? She should either approach Joss or just stick to writing fan fiction to express her Buffy related ideas. Better still she should just go off and create something of her own rather than feeding off of the still living body of something she purports to love. At the very least she should speak to Joss and try and come to some understanding, get some input and advice. That at least would be common courtesy when you are about to seriously mess with someone else’s creation.

I think people need to stop blaming the writer for this. This was going to happen with our without Whit Anderson. If she didn't say yes someone else would have. I have a hard time believing that if approached, 99% of the fans that are currently up in arms about this would take the job. It's an opportunity to reinvent their favorite character. Hopefully Ms. Anderson is the fan she says she is, and she will do her best to do right by the character. Better to have it in the hands of someone who loves the character than someone who knows nothing about Buffy.

As for Joss, well he knew what he was getting in to when he signed the rights away. I think that is reflected in his reaction. While disappointed, he seems respectful.

That being said, I have mixed feelings about the reboot. When it comes down to it though, entertainment is a business, and companies will do what they think makes financial sense. If they own the property they have every right to work with it.

I'll see this, mostly so I can speak intelligently about it. If it is good, then I will say its good. Also, we have to remember that this is a reboot of the movie, not our beloved TV show. The Terminator Franchise has told may stories in the universe, not all in continuity. Terminator Salvation came out while the TV show was on the air. It did not ruin the awesomeness that was the SCC despite the crapfest that was Salvation.

Yes, I would rather Joss be involved, but I'm not of the mindset that this is the worst thing that could have ever happened.

[angeliclestat]

It all depends on what type of fan your are.

Many fans are Joss fans first and foremost. Then Buffy. Those fans are only loyal to Joss and therefore are unsurprisingly angry about this.

However there are probably a greater amount of people who aren't devoted to Joss, and will go to see this film because they know they Buffy name, so there is a good chance that it will be a success.

[AndrewCrossett]

Nov 24, 2010 13:45:23 GMT -5 angeliclestat said:

However there are probably a greater amount of people who aren't devoted to Joss, and will go to see this film because they know they Buffy name, so there is a good chance that it will be a success.

It takes more than a familiar name to make a movie a success.

A majority of the fans who would be motivated to pay money to see a movie based on the "Buffy" name, will also have some familiarity with the character. And 15 minutes into this movie, will be sitting there saying "WTF is this?..."

[iigreenii]

I just recently read Kristy Swanson's thought's. She supports the reboot and would even act in it if they asked her. Let's just say the comments weren't very nice regarding her response. People are passionate about Buffy/Joss. Even more than I realized.

[midwesternwatcher]

I'm sure the "new" Buffy will be different from the old. The absence of Joss will make little difference in the new characterization, but the new actress will.

The James Bond franchise rolls on happily, despite multiple changes of both actor and writer. The different Bonds are indeed different characters. Fans shrug and accept them as different versions of Bond, all valid. Why can't Buffy fans do the same thing?

angeliclestat, I'm the kind of fan who is devoted to Buffy. I don't care about Joss, who "signed off" on "Queen of the Slayers" and sold out the whole story line to get a fifth season of Angel. I want more good Buffy stories and I'm delighted to see them coming out, no matter from where.

[Shane]

@Andrew: Okay, I think I see things clearer now. Kinda awesome that all this was your gut reaction. I'm still trying to figure it all out.

@dravenuk: Wow, I didn't know a lot of that. But I meant it wasn't gaining popularity the way Star Trek did. As in, is another TV show likely? Also, I haven't seen fisking done so politely in quite some time.


I guess I'm not seeing the difference between people making money off Joss's creation with and without his consent. I get that it's up to Joss whether or not he feels comfortable with the different projects but there needs to be some reasoning to make others feel the same way about it. What plans does/did Joss have for Buffy? How does this affect them? Maybe it's been pointed out already and I didn't get it then either. (Am I a Gen Y'er or a Gen Z'er?) To me, the financial divide seems to be more between WB and Fox. I see Buffy as an idea so I'm okay with another version of her.

Again, I still don't think this will be a Buffy I'd be interested in. But that's more because of what I see as marketable in today's (or 2012's) culture so I don't want to (pre)judge the movie based on that.

I'm also looking at this in another way now. If it manages to grab public attention in a huge way maybe Fox will let Joss make his own movie to cut out the competition. That'd be all kinds of awesome.

[batboy99]

Ugh,Im sorry but i think this is a terrible idea. Especially without Joss and Sarah. I know some people would be fine with just having Joss involved, but I honestly think they at least need Sarah too.

And I hate how they compared this movie to Nolan revamping Batman. Its completely different. Batman is a comic character first and formost. He's a drawing, theres not specific actor who is Batman. Buffy is a live action tv series that lasted for 7 seasons and there is one face that belongs to the name Buffy, and thats SMG.(And yes I know that Swanson was technically the first Buffy, but c'mon, we can't seriously count that.)

Id much rather have an animated series/movie at this point. At least that way, even without Joss' total involvement, we can still has the original characters and have the voices of people who sound like the original cast or just the orignal cast themselves.

As a hardcore, die-hard Buffy fan, I am saddened about this news. I will say though, that I want them to get to casting just to see who they have in mind for the role, but after that I hope the movie dies(unless they want SMG back and she accepts because she IS Buffy. Nuff said). Im a Buffy fan first and formost,dare I say more so than I am a Joss fan, but I truly beleive Joss should have SOMETHING to do with this,even if its just like the comics and just giving his permission. But I know I'm going to be against another girl as Buffy, but that is just me.

[midwesternwatcher]

I love SMG too. But she's now too old to play Buffy as we knew her. I could imagine a film where an older Buffy, played by SMG, would tutor a younger Slayer, "Karate Kid" style, but I don't think this film will be it.

What's so bad about letting another actress have her chance? She won't have all the beauties and virtues of SMG, but she'll have other qualities of her own.

[drgreenevil]

My opinions...

I have been a huge Batman fan my entire life. But even before i was born there were 4-5 different incarnations of the character running around. In the last 5-10 the number of incarnations has basically tripled.
So having multiple versions of the character is nothing big to me. One does not detract from the others.
I just want new Buffy adventures.

I'm with the crowd who says lets try something new. I'm really curious to see what Vertigo and the WB create. Especially after the writer saying that this isn't a high school Buffy. Makes me think this might not be an origin story.
(At the same time though I get these terrible "Buffy in Space" visions.)(But then I start thinking "Buffy in Space" sounds kinda cool.)
Especially if Vertigo makes something really scary. A really scary Buffy would be really cool. Actually make it look like she is fighting vampires out of actual fear, not just teen/young adult angst.

Also with the crowd that doesn't think Joss Whedon is just a super great artist. Yes, he is a good story teller. But if he is so great why does he really only have one profitable story to his name.

[jellymoff]

^^^ Don't agree with you about Joss only having 1 profitable story to his name. Dr. Horrible was groundbreaking in the way it was distributed and is considered a major success. The Emmy awards basically made up a category because of it. While Firefly was not a huge success, it has garnered a cult following that produced a movie and several comic books and novels. Dark Horse would not keep publishing Serenity comics if it was not profitable. I think we will find Dollhouse to be the same, as there are many comics coming in the future. In addition, Whedon wrote one of the most successful and highly regarded X-Men series in recent times. Oh, and someone must have faith in him, because he is directing this little movie called The Avengers.

[The Night Lord]

I have limited faith in Joss directing The Avengers. Sooo don't want him to screw it up, but it's Joss...something might go wrong

[Scarygothgirl]

midwesternwatcher, I don't think I'd have a problem if Buffy turned into a James Bon type thing where there were loads of films with different actresses. But the fact that there's just going to be this one new film is annoying. I imagine people were annoyed to begiin with when Bon first changed actor. I think it would be pretty awesome if Buffy was simelar to the James Bond fanchise actually...

[whitecandy]

I am sceptical about this film, but am getting more used to the idea. As a friend of mine said yesterday, who is a HUGE Star Trek fan, he went through the same emotions when the news came out that they were making a new movie, as the cast had played those roles for almost thirty years abd were iconic characters. He said that the new movie created the right balance of the best of the old yet refreshing it for those who had never seen it, and it worked. It opened a whole new life for ST and lots of people, myself included, decided to revisit the original show.

I am crossing my fingers that the person in charge of this Buffy remake has the same dedication, understanding and passion that the Star Trek person did

[AndrewCrossett]

Well, it's Thanksgiving, so I'd like to thank Joss, and all the others who worked on his vision, for the many years of enjoyment he's given me. I'm hoping for another 13 at least, no matter how many big middle fingers the Hollywood Greed Machine throws at him.

Here's to the real Buffy... accept no cheap counterfeits.

[dravenuk]

Nov 24, 2010 13:29:47 GMT -5 jellymoff said:

Nov 24, 2010 10:09:21 GMT -5 dravenuk said:

And this is what annoys me. Who the hell is she to think she has the right to get ‘her version’ of Buffy on screen? She should either approach Joss or just stick to writing fan fiction to express her Buffy related ideas. Better still she should just go off and create something of her own rather than feeding off of the still living body of something she purports to love. At the very least she should speak to Joss and try and come to some understanding, get some input and advice. That at least would be common courtesy when you are about to seriously mess with someone else’s creation.

I think people need to stop blaming the writer for this. This was going to happen with our without Whit Anderson. If she didn't say yes someone else would have. I have a hard time believing that if approached, 99% of the fans that are currently up in arms about this would take the job. It's an opportunity to reinvent their favorite character.

I just don’t understand the mindset. If I was a professional writer and a huge fan as she claims to be then I wouldn’t dream of ‘officially’ messing with Buffy, not unless Joss had relinquished all creative control and/or had given his blessing. Even then, I would still seek his input and ideas and final blessing on any script. Buffy is not Whit Anderson’s or any other writers’ character to reinvent just because they want to; not while Joss is still breathing and still writing Buffy. He may not legally own certain copyrights but morally and ethically (to me at least) he has full and final say over everything Buffy until he either dies or says he is happy not to. Anything else is just disrespectful at the very least. I have far too much respect and admiration for him and love for his creation to even contemplate such a thing. But maybe I’m old fashioned that way. I will never be rude or hostile personally towards Whit Anderson (or anyone else involved in this reboot), I’m sure she’s a very nice person. She may even turn out to be a very good writer. But I reserve the right to fundamentally disagree with what she (and Warners and Atlas) want to do even though they are perfectly within their legal rights to do it.

Nov 24, 2010 18:39:54 GMT -5 midwesternwatcher said:

The James Bond franchise rolls on happily, despite multiple changes of both actor and writer. The different Bonds are indeed different characters. Fans shrug and accept them as different versions of Bond, all valid. Why can't Buffy fans do the same thing?

That is a totally different thing. The Bond films have almost all been made by the same company, Eon, headed up by the Broccoli family. And Ian Fleming, Bond’s creator, was involved from the start right up until he died. The exceptions were the terrible Casino Royale spoof in 1963, and in 1983 where something similar happened as is now happening to Buffy and a rival Bond film was made in Never Say Never Again. Kevin McClory, who co-wrote Thunderball, owned the rights to that story and went to court in order to gain remake rights, which he managed to do. Hence Sean Connery returned for Never Say Never Again the same year that Eon put out Octopussy with Roger Moore. But the difference was that McClory only had the remake rights to that one story. He couldn’t use the Bond character in anything else so there was no chance of a rival franchise. If the Kazui’s and co. could only do a remake of the original film and nothing more then I wouldn’t be especially bothered. It would be a blip that could easily be ignored. The problem is that they can potentially create a whole new franchise which has nothing to do with Joss and the Buffy we know and love; a franchise which will essentially replace Joss’s Buffy as the ‘real’ Buffy in the eyes of the world. And no matter how good or bad the reboot might be in its own right, I think that to do so without at the very least Joss’s input and consent is fundamentally wrong.

Nov 24, 2010 19:52:34 GMT -5 Shane said:

What plans does/did Joss have for Buffy? How does this affect them? Maybe it's been pointed out already and I didn't get it then either.

Joss has said he’d love to do more Buffy on screen if the chance arose. At the 2008 Paleyfest reunion he stated he’d drop the comic and almost anything else to work with SMG and the gang again on another Buffy project. Obviously people’s schedules would have to coincide. And Fox et al would have to want to invest in it. He said that one of the main reasons that the season 8 comic exists is that he just can’t get her out of his system. He simply has to play in that sandbox and has lots of stories left to tell. Buffy is deeply personal and deeply connected to him. Of course, what with him committed to The Avengers, this would prove more difficult to do now than it would have back then. I’d always hoped that if The Avengers hits big he’d get the choice of doing anything he wanted and would use that clout to get a Buffy movie off the ground. This new turn of events just makes that all the more unlikely.

Nov 24, 2010 19:52:34 GMT -5 Shane said:

I'm also looking at this in another way now. If it manages to grab public attention in a huge way maybe Fox will let Joss make his own movie to cut out the competition. That'd be all kinds of awesome.

That would be awesome but I think that it would be highly unlikely seeing as how all Buffy movie rights are tied up with the Kazui’s who are behind this licensing to Atlas and Warners.

[iloveromy]

Mark my words: they are going to revamp Buffy with an urban angle.

No judgment one way or the other but I think they are going to go with a karate kid reboot style.

[midwesternwatcher]

Nov 25, 2010 10:29:53 GMT -5 dravenuk said:

Nov 24, 2010 13:29:47 GMT -5 jellymoff said:

That is a totally different thing. The Bond films have almost all been made by the same company, Eon, headed up by the Broccoli family. And Ian Fleming, Bond’s creator, was involved from the start right up until he died. The exceptions were the terrible Casino Royale spoof in 1963, and in 1983 where something similar happened as is now happening to Buffy and a rival Bond film was made in Never Say Never Again. Kevin McClory, who co-wrote Thunderball, owned the rights to that story and went to court in order to gain remake rights, which he managed to do. Hence Sean Connery returned for Never Say Never Again the same year that Eon put out Octopussy with Roger Moore. But the difference was that McClory only had the remake rights to that one story. He couldn’t use the Bond character in anything else so there was no chance of a rival franchise. If the Kazui’s and co. could only do a remake of the original film and nothing more then I wouldn’t be especially bothered. It would be a blip that could easily be ignored. The problem is that they can potentially create a whole new franchise which has nothing to do with Joss and the Buffy we know and love; a franchise which will essentially replace Joss’s Buffy as the ‘real’ Buffy in the eyes of the world. And no matter how good or bad the reboot might be in its own right, I think that to do so without at the very least Joss’s input and consent is fundamentally wrong.

The Bond films have all been made by one company? Other than the name, everything about that company (personnel, philosophy, policies) has changed several times since the 60s. It's not the same company at all. Nothing that lives can remain the same for 50 years.

Forget all the legal mumbo-jumbo. What do people see on the screen? Bond is sometimes a bastard, sometimes a gentleman. The plots sometimes borrow from cold-war politics, sometimes stick to the near-fantasy of SPECTRE. All these are variations on the same thing, and the different Bonds are variations on the same character. This is good! It's the very diagnostic of life!

The monotonous theme I hear on this thread is, "keep it the same, the same, the characters the same, the writers the same, the actors the same, no growth, no development, nothing new, let's stay in our comfortable rut." That's the real reason you guys want Joss to be involved. You want him to be a watchdog to make sure nothing new happens.

Don't you see this is a formula for death?

[Scarygothgirl]

What was wrong with Buffy ending where it did? I mean I'd love a one-off movie with all the original cast and writers, but I'm happy with keeping Buffy as it is. It's like if someone tried to remake Donnie Darko, there is no need for it because as it is is fine. Buffy should be left alone, I like it as it is.

[midwesternwatcher]

Nov 25, 2010 14:55:47 GMT -5 Scarygothgirl said:

What was wrong with Buffy ending where it did? I mean I'd love a one-off movie with all the original cast and writers, but I'm happy with keeping Buffy as it is. It's like if someone tried to remake Donnie Darko, there is no need for it because as it is is fine. Buffy should be left alone, I like it as it is.

I'm glad somebody finally said it.

If you want to stick with seven seasons, or five, or three, that's fine with me. But I don't see why anyone should be offended if some of us want to explore other possibilities.

Buffy has been around since 1997, or 1992 if you count the original movie. Superman has been around since 1938, yet it is still possible to write Superman stories and make Superman movies that will attract an audience. Wouldn't it be strange if it turns out there are no more good stories to tell in the Buffyverse?

And if there are, don't you want them told?

Now for a really heretical thought. Prepare to be shocked!

Maybe there are good stories in the Buffyverse that Joss Whedon cannot tell. He is a particular person, he has a certain mindset, his vision is limited, as is everyone's. Maybe we need someone else to work out the full range of Buffyverse possibilities.