Joss-less Buffy 'Reboot' = BIG BAD!

[dravenuk]

Nov 25, 2010 15:08:56 GMT -5 midwesternwatcher said:

If you want to stick with seven seasons, or five, or three, that's fine with me. But I don't see why anyone should be offended if some of us want to explore other possibilities.

That’s what fan fiction is there for. I honestly believe that Buffy doesn’t belong to you or to me or to anyone but Joss. Legally the name and situations from the first movie belong to the Kazui's but morally Buffy as an idea and as an icon belongs to Joss.

Personally speaking, while Joss is still alive and well and wanting to work on Buffy I have no interest in anyone else’s take on the character. It just isn’t relevant. There is only one Buffy. Period. But if others disagree then so be it. It looks like you are all gonna get your wish. So I’ll just sit in a corner and grumble obscenities while nursing my DVD box set and SMG action figure.

[AndrewCrossett]

Nov 25, 2010 12:56:21 GMT -5 midwesternwatcher said:

The monotonous theme I hear on this thread is, "keep it the same, the same, the characters the same, the writers the same, the actors the same, no growth, no development, nothing new, let's stay in our comfortable rut." That's the real reason you guys want Joss to be involved. You want him to be a watchdog to make sure nothing new happens.

Is that what you see Joss as? A hack dedicated to keeping Buffy's story a predictable formula? And do you really see season 8 as an example of "nothing new happening?" Come on. Fans are up in arms because there's too much new happening. Fan sites are full of people who claim they don't even recognize Buffy or these characters or this story anymore. It's about as far from stagnant "same old same old" as you can get. And honestly, there's no way I would accept some of these storytelling decisions from anyone but Joss.

I believe a creator should have creative ownership over his characters and story, unless and until he decides to surrender it. Most of the fandom agrees with that, it seems. I don't believe Joss should have to see his creation caught up in some kind of weird socialist utopia where his work is the common property of all mankind, to be tinkered with and trashed however they wish.

I also don't think a story has to go on forever, passing from hand to hand, in order to be a great story. I'm content to see Buffy's story end when Joss decides it should. I'll miss it, but I'll have a masterpiece to look at for the rest of my life.

His character, his story, his decision on what he wants to do with her. Not a formula for death, but a formula for a coherent story guided by its creator from its beginning to its end.

I shouldn't be able to make my own series of Harry Potter movies, appropriating the character and idea for my own purposes, to compete with the ones authorized by J.K. Rowling, even if I have a slip of paper giving me the technical legal right to do so. And Warner Bros. shouldn't be able to create their own "Buffy the Vampire Slayer" franchise in the hopes of eclipsing and replacing that of the person who put his heart and soul and genius into making Buffy worthy of WB's notice in the first place.

[rogue11]

They need to stop this right now!!!!!
Why would they make this film, people all over the internet are apparently furious about it because they're basically going to make a half-ass remake of a legendary tv show. The show hasn't even become a classic, its still fresh in so many people's minds. the comics book is also still running so the Buffy story isn't even over technically.
I'm glad that Joss was clear that he was not happy with the decision. Buffy was his creation, who ever the hell is making this movie remake disaster is taking his creation and using it just to make a profit.
Lets face it, this isn't even about a fresh new take on the characters, its about making money off other people's hard work, its dirty and wrong.
And can people stop making remakes of films less than a decade after the finish?
The Buffy tv show was already a remake of the movie, they're making a remake of a remake. stop pushing it and dont go through with this movie.
The woman writing the script is some actor who couldn't make it in the business, when she talked about her take on Bufffy, it was so basic with no critical insights really. I'm sure she'll come up with a watered down script of the tv show.
This remake will be the high school musical to Joss's Whedon's Titantic.

[CowboyGuy]

Seems like this project is gonna happen whether we love the idea or not. All I hope is that the team behind this movie watches the entire show to understand the concept of the mythology and the character of Buffy. Even if they can't/won't use any of the show's characters or stories, I hope that watching the show would show them who Buffy is supposed to be.

Amanda Seyfried for Buffy Summers?

I wonder if they'd go with that whole reincarnation thing, the menstrual cramps, and the mole...like they did in the movie? I hope not!

[AndrewCrossett]

I would prefer that if the movie does get made (and that's a big if), they make it as different from the TV series as possible. I don't want the two getting confused in people's minds.

I don't really care about them doing justice to Buffy, because this isn't Buffy.

[BuffyFanOne]

itsjustmovies.com/13170

[Skytteflickan88]

Nov 25, 2010 12:56:21 GMT -5 midwesternwatcher said:

The monotonous theme I hear on this thread is, "keep it the same, the same, the characters the same, the writers the same, the actors the same, no growth, no development, nothing new, let's stay in our comfortable rut." That's the real reason you guys want Joss to be involved. You want him to be a watchdog to make sure nothing new happens.

That's a unfair generalization. Like AndrewCrossett said, Buffy continues to evolve with Joss' help, and for some people, evolve too much. Season 8 has been anything but a comfortable rut. Hell, for every season, there's something new making the fans go WTF??? True, in a way it's all the same, because it's one story, but to say nothing new happens is wrong.

Thing is, there's a difference between wanting a new Buffy and wanting more of the old one. I really don't call it a rut saying the Buffy we have, who is awesome, is enough and we want more of her, and not wanting a new Buffy that's "stolen" and re-made.

[dusktodawn]

Honestly, I'm confused over all the angry responses from the fans about this remake. Personally, I'm actually kind of excited to see a new take on Buffy - especially by someone who's a fan of Buffy. She's not involved with a remake of the TV series, is she? No, and if she honestly were, I think it would be a more worthy reason for angry responses.

I agree, it sucks that Joss isn't able to be the one to remake Buffy, and I wanna see Sarah Michelle Gellar star as Buffy one more time before she decides she doesn't want to, but at this point I don't see it happening.

Also, please don't bite my head off for this, but this is just my opinion, but some of the posts I've seen involving this remake make me think people have forgotten that Sarah's version of Buffy isn't the only version of Buffy. Sarah may have made the character popular, but Kristy did come first.

Remakes may not be the best thing to happen to the film industry, but they're certainly not the worst thing either. Who knows, maybe the remake will be good? Maybe wait for a trailer before judging this?

Nov 25, 2010 22:20:30 GMT -5 CowboyGuy said:

Amanda Seyfried for Buffy Summers?

I can't really see Amanda Seyfried as Buffy. I posted this in the chatbox before, but how about Adrianne Palicki? I liked her in Friday Night Lights, and after seeing her being suggested as Buffy by one of the writers at Entertainment Weekly, I agree, I could see her as Buffy.

[Shane]

Nov 25, 2010 21:10:29 GMT -5 AndrewCrossett said:

I believe a creator should have creative ownership over his characters and story, unless and until he decides to surrender it. Most of the fandom agrees with that, it seems. I don't believe Joss should have to see his creation caught up in some kind of weird socialist utopia where his work is the common property of all mankind, to be tinkered with and trashed however they wish.

I think this is what I was not getting. Perhaps because I don't pay much attention to the behind-the-scenes stuff. It seems the Kuzuis could have made money by selling their rights back then. But they chose to keep them and are cashing in now. I think it's just smart/lucky investment so I don't have much problem with it.

I'll have to read up more on how this affects Joss's plans (I don't think Joss was really getting anywhere) and then decide whether to support it but I'm not against it in principle. (Yet. )

If the newer audience find it lacking, I hope they ask why the TV show got 7 seasons and a spin-off in the first place. And then go check out all the awesomeness. But who knows, maybe they'll like this one more... <_<

[midwesternwatcher]

I've read a couple of posts here that strike me funny. I said that some fans are resistant to change, wanting Buffy to stay "the same old thing." The response I get is that many fans are complaining about too much change in S8. You guys actually agree with me.

Somebody used the phrase "weird socialist utopia." What I am suggesting is not revolutionary. If anything, it's reactionary. In nature, all ideas belong to everybody. What's weird is the notion that an idea can be somebody's private property, a crazy fiction that can be maintained only by the constant intervention of the police.

The "common property of all mankind" in the realm of ideas includes, among other things, vampires, witches, werewolves, ghosts, wizards, gods as from Greece and Egypt, and iconic figures like Paul Bunyon, John Henry, and Hercules (who represents the archers of the ancient Greek army). I could give some 20th century examples, too. We all know what Santa Claus looks like, right? The Santa Claus of today was invented for a Coca Cola ad. We can name the Seven Dwarves, right? Those names were invented for the Walt Disney movie.

Someday, I hope, the notion of a Slayer will become linked to the vampire legend. In a hundred years, somebody who's never heard of Joss Whedon will write a vampire story that includes a Slayer and the audience will accept it without a qualm.

Did I say in a hundred years? I hope it's less. The sooner the better.

That's how I think it will turn out. And that's the best possible outcome. The alternative is that BtVS will be a "masterpiece to admire" that people will look at only when and because some teacher forces them.

There are many books, and even some movies, that survive in this half-life zone. I cringe to think of them. Let them die decently! And sometimes they do. Have any of you heard of a book called "The Courtier," by Baldassare Castiglione? It was written about 1500, and was a towering classic for 350 years, an essential element of the education of every gentleman and lady in Europe and America. Then it disappeared. It had nothing to say to the people of 1850. It has even less to say now.

That's the last fate I want for Buffy.

[dravenuk]

Nov 25, 2010 21:10:29 GMT -5 AndrewCrossett said:

Nov 25, 2010 12:56:21 GMT -5 midwesternwatcher said:

The monotonous theme I hear on this thread is, "keep it the same, the same, the characters the same, the writers the same, the actors the same, no growth, no development, nothing new, let's stay in our comfortable rut." That's the real reason you guys want Joss to be involved. You want him to be a watchdog to make sure nothing new happens.

Is that what you see Joss as? A hack dedicated to keeping Buffy's story a predictable formula? And do you really see season 8 as an example of "nothing new happening?" Come on. Fans are up in arms because there's too much new happening. Fan sites are full of people who claim they don't even recognize Buffy or these characters or this story anymore. It's about as far from stagnant "same old same old" as you can get. And honestly, there's no way I would accept some of these storytelling decisions from anyone but Joss.

I believe a creator should have creative ownership over his characters and story, unless and until he decides to surrender it. Most of the fandom agrees with that, it seems. I don't believe Joss should have to see his creation caught up in some kind of weird socialist utopia where his work is the common property of all mankind, to be tinkered with and trashed however they wish.

I also don't think a story has to go on forever, passing from hand to hand, in order to be a great story. I'm content to see Buffy's story end when Joss decides it should. I'll miss it, but I'll have a masterpiece to look at for the rest of my life.

His character, his story, his decision on what he wants to do with her. Not a formula for death, but a formula for a coherent story guided by its creator from its beginning to its end.

I shouldn't be able to make my own series of Harry Potter movies, appropriating the character and idea for my own purposes, to compete with the ones authorized by J.K. Rowling, even if I have a slip of paper giving me the technical legal right to do so. And Warner Bros. shouldn't be able to create their own "Buffy the Vampire Slayer" franchise in the hopes of eclipsing and replacing that of the person who put his heart and soul and genius into making Buffy worthy of WB's notice in the first place.

Exactly.

My only proviso is that I'd be happy to see a Buffy reboot/remake now as long as Joss was involved and/or had given his blessing. Or that it was done by others a sensitive time after Joss has eventually passed on to that great Whedonverse in the sky. After all, Buffy is a modern myth. And myths get reinterpreted and retold over and over throughout time just as to this day we still get retellings of ancient Greek myths and stories. Nothing wrong with that. It’s great. I don't want Buffy to die as a myth, to fade away. All good myths should be retold throughout time.

My anger comes from the fact that while Joss is still around, Buffy belongs to him (unless he says otherwise). And it is up to him to decide what 'official' version of her we get to see. Legally this ain't the case of course. But ethically I see it as an absolute. I'm not quite sure why other people don't get that. Would anyone here really like to have something they've poured their life in to, worked so hard to make in to something special, something beloved (along with lots of help of course) pretty much discarded by a bunch of suits and a wannabe writer who are basically saying that the story you are still telling and that is still very popular, needs to be updated? This is implying that what you’ve done, what you are still doing is somehow not relevant and that you are not producing anything worthwhile anymore, that they know better.

Andrew’s Harry Potter example is a good one. Would Harry Potter fans have wanted to see someone else come in and ‘reboot’ JK Rowling’s series with their own book or movie while she was still writing hers? Or even now, so soon after the books have finished? Even if legally someone could it wouldn’t make it right. Just because you can do something doesn’t mean you should do something. Joss is still writing Buffy. He is still telling her story. So this 'reboot' just isn’t right. Sorry, but that’s how I feel. To me, even if this film ends up being a good movie in its own right, it won’t be Buffy. Not unless Joss says so. Until Joss says otherwise there is only one Buffy. Joss’s Buffy. Accept no substitute.

[loveisabird]

I honestly cant understand why some people are pro-reboot. It feels to me that the people wanting this reboot are people who were under 10 years old when the show was airing. But thats just my opinion.

[AndrewCrossett]

midwesternwatcher... clearly we have vastly different opinions on the ethics of this situation. Like, matter/antimatter different.

It would be kind of pointless to keep going over the same arguments over and over and over. Unless and until a miracle occurs and Joss decides to endorse and get involved in this off-brand parody of his creation, my feelings on it aren't going to change. I doubt yours will either.

I'm going to let my previous posts (and my sig) speak for my position on this matter, though I'll certainly chime in if anyone has any new points to make.

I'm determined not to let this depressing news ruin my holidays. Hopefully next Wednesday's issue of season 8 won't ruin them, either.

[Mr. Savath Bunny]

Could you imagine the crazy Harry Potter fans if some who wasn't JKR decided to keep the Harry Potter movies going... but wait, we're doing them "over" again. Without the original writer... or cast... and we aren't doing the same story with Harry's friends or past enemies involved... It sounds ludicrous, seriously. Why tamper with a good thing - if the freaking Anderson lady really WAS a fan, why not do a FRAY movie... then you have a whole new idea to play with and the general public is all about future scifi meets vampires mix? Come on.

[jellymoff]

Nov 26, 2010 10:43:23 GMT -5 Mr. Savath Bunny said:

Could you imagine the crazy Harry Potter fans if some who wasn't JKR decided to keep the Harry Potter movies going... but wait, we're doing them "over" again. Without the original writer... or cast... and we aren't doing the same story with Harry's friends or past enemies involved... It sounds ludicrous, seriously. Why tamper with a good thing - if the freaking Anderson lady really WAS a fan, why not do a FRAY movie... then you have a whole new idea to play with and the general public is all about future scifi meets vampires mix? Come on.

I'm going to ask this again (and I'm not picking on you particularly). Why are people bashing the writer for this? She has nothing to do with the legality of this or making it happen. She was hired to write this movie, not a Fray movie, not a movie with the TV Character. She has no control over the situation. Should she have said no to a job that could potentially help her career take off?

Nov 25, 2010 12:40:43 GMT -5 iloveromy said:

Mark my words: they are going to revamp Buffy with an urban angle.

No judgment one way or the other but I think they are going to go with a karate kid reboot style.

In that case they should cast Bianca Lawson, she's still playing teenagers!

[dravenuk]

Nov 26, 2010 11:27:44 GMT -5 jellymoff said:

Nov 26, 2010 10:43:23 GMT -5 Mr. Savath Bunny said:

Could you imagine the crazy Harry Potter fans if some who wasn't JKR decided to keep the Harry Potter movies going... but wait, we're doing them "over" again. Without the original writer... or cast... and we aren't doing the same story with Harry's friends or past enemies involved... It sounds ludicrous, seriously. Why tamper with a good thing - if the freaking Anderson lady really WAS a fan, why not do a FRAY movie... then you have a whole new idea to play with and the general public is all about future scifi meets vampires mix? Come on.

I'm going to ask this again (and I'm not picking on you particularly). Why are people bashing the writer for this? She has nothing to do with the legality of this or making it happen. She was hired to write this movie, not a Fray movie, not a movie with the TV Character. She has no control over the situation. Should she have said no to a job that could potentially help her career take off?

Yes, personaly I think she should have said no.

Sorry, but I just think it is ethically wrong what is being done. You can choose to be a part of it or choose not to. The writer has chosen to be a part of it. Just because it might get her started in a writing career.

So what?

Joss didn't create Buffy in order to help someone else take his idea and mess with it against his will in order to make a name for themselves. It sounds as if Whit Anderson went to Charles Roven and co. (probably as part of pitch meetings with various writers) and sold them on her idea. But Buffy is not her idea to sell. She's Joss's. Instead, why can't Whit come up with an original idea of her own to sell? But this is the culture we seem to live in where people want to constantly feed off of others hard work to bolster their own futures.

I'm sure Whit believes sincerely that she's doing what she's doing out of love for Buffy. I give her the benefit of the doubt on that and I don't wish her ill. But when Joss is obviously not happy, resigned but not happy, then why on earth would she still think its okay?

[jellymoff]

Dravenuk, I just don't think that is realistic. In a world where jobs are hard to come by (especially writing jobs) and money is needed for mere survival, people are going to be motivated by cash.

To play devil's advocate, I ask this: Why did Joss ever give up the rights in the first place if he loves Buffy so much? How could he ever allow anyone else to gain control of his property? My guess is he was young, broke, and looking for his big break.

[AndrewCrossett]

Nov 26, 2010 14:15:35 GMT -5 jellymoff said:

To play devil's advocate, I ask this: Why did Joss ever give up the rights in the first place if he loves Buffy so much? How could he ever allow anyone else to gain control of his property? My guess is he was young, broke, and looking for his big break.

He wrote a movie script for the Kuzuis, and they owned all the rights to it from the start. After the movie came out (having been revised beyond much recognition of the original script), Joss asked to buy the TV rights to the Buffy property. Thinking those rights would be worthless, they sold them, with the condition that they get a producer credit (and, I guess, a percentage of the money) from any TV series based on Buffy. They kept the theatrical movie rights.

Then Joss sold his TV rights to Fox in order to get BtVS made.

[midwesternwatcher]

Nov 26, 2010 9:38:07 GMT -5 AndrewCrossett said:

midwesternwatcher... clearly we have vastly different opinions on the ethics of this situation. Like, matter/antimatter different.

It would be kind of pointless to keep going over the same arguments over and over and over. Unless and until a miracle occurs and Joss decides to endorse and get involved in this off-brand parody of his creation, my feelings on it aren't going to change. I doubt yours will either.

I'm going to let my previous posts (and my sig) speak for my position on this matter, though I'll certainly chime in if anyone has any new points to make.

I'm determined not to let this depressing news ruin my holidays. Hopefully next Wednesday's issue of season 8 won't ruin them, either.

Actually, I think our viewpoints are very similar.

All I have to do to win this argument is to get you to say something like, "On this point (doesn't matter what it is), I think Joss is wrong, and I don't accept his version." The instant you say that, you are asserting that you own the Buffyverse too.

Have you ever said that?

As far as I know, you haven't. But you did say, in an earlier post on this thread, that you wouldn't accept some things about S8 except for the fact that Joss authorized them.

That's very, very close.

[AndrewCrossett]

Nov 26, 2010 21:37:04 GMT -5 midwesternwatcher said:

All I have to do to win this argument is to get you to say something like, "On this point (doesn't matter what it is), I think Joss is wrong, and I don't accept his version." The instant you say that, you are asserting that you own the Buffyverse too.

Have you ever said that?

Joss (and those writers working under him) have made many decisions over the history of the Buffyverse that I haven't liked. I didn't like the Buffy/Spike situation in season 6, except for some moments. I didn't like the killing of Tara, although I later came to understand its necessity in the story. I didn't much care for the very existence of Connor on Angel, and especially the treatment of Cordelia in general during that storyline. And there have been several things during season 8 that made me think Joss very eligible for an atomic wedgie.

But at no point have I ever said that Joss was wrong, or that I didn't accept his decision in canon.

Because it's his story to tell, and part of the enjoyment is that he's not always going to give me the exact story I want. That's not what stories are about. They're about the storyteller using his or her skill and craft to create a whole range of emotions in me... from enjoyment to anger.

Playing with the story outside of canon is fine... through fanfic, or licensed stories with no input from Joss. As long as it's done with his consent in the case of for-profit material, and kept separate from his canon... there's no problem.

But in the case of Nuffy, we have people with no connection to Joss, spending tens of millions of dollars of studio money to try and use his own creation, against his will, to create a new commercial franchise to compete with his. That's something very, very different.

Nov 26, 2010 21:37:04 GMT -5 midwesternwatcher said:

As far as I know, you haven't. But you did say, in an earlier post on this thread, that you wouldn't accept some things about S8 except for the fact that Joss authorized them.

That's very, very close.

The fact that I wouldn't accept them from anyone but Joss illustrates the strength of his story, not the weakness. I accept stuff from him that bothers me, because it's his story, and I love his story... even when it doesn't give me exactly what I thought I wanted.

Honestly... if I went back through season 8 and marked up every point where Joss did something I wished at the time he hadn't, and changed it to suit me... I would be left with a predictable, melodramatic, feel-good powderpuff of a story, and it would suck. It wouldn't have any stylistic or thematic connection to the kind of storytelling I've gotten addicted to through 7+ seasons of Buffy and 5+ seasons of Angel, and all the rest.

When I feel the need for one of those feel-good detours, I write a fanfic. I get a nice little story that I and others enjoy reading. And then I turn back to the real story.