Buffy, Cordelia, Angel

[ptnewell]

The name is Angel
Buffy: “It’s a pretty name.”
Cordelia: “Pretty much a girlie name.”

And the boy looks good
Buffy: “Dark and gorgeous, in an annoying way”
Cordelia: “Handsome”
Buffy: “some girls might find him good looking… if they have eyes, alright, he’s a honey”
Cordelia: “You have the fashion taste of a gay man”

But he comes with baggage
Buffy: “What I want from you I can never have.”
Cordelia: “Let’s face it a eunuch”
Angel: “Hey, how can you…I’m not a eunuch.”
Cordy: “Angel, it’s just a figure of speech.”
Angel: ”Find a better one.”


And the communications issue
Buffy: “Well you’re not exactly Joe here’s-what-I’m-thinking.”
Cordelia: “You’re … emotionally stunted”


But a few words can say a lot
ANGEL: Shhhhh. I-
She turns. They are face to face.
BUFFY: You - what?
A long moment. Angel finally says exactly what's been on his mind for some time.
ANGEL: I love you. (pained) I try not to, but I can't stop-
BUFFY: Me too. I can't either.
They kiss. A kiss that is the beginning of something much bigger and they both know it. Angel stops - pulls away.
ANGEL: Buffy. Maybe we shouldn't-
BUFFY: Don't. Just... kiss me

Or many words can say little
Angel: "Cordy."

Cordy: "You know, we should probably just not talk about - our little adventure. Anything that might have been seen, anything that might have been, oh (lets out a laugh) perky."

Angel turning away: "I just wanna pretend it never happened."

Cordy: "Exactly."

Angel: "Wipe it from my memory."

Cordy: "What? - Was it, like, disgusting?"

Angel: "No! I, ah... I would, I would just want... If we were to... - I would just want it to be... - new. Start at the beginning."

Cordy shaking her head: "Lost me in the middle."

Angel: "Cordy - you and I, we've been working together for - a long time. (Cordy lets out a short 'duh' kind of laugh) What I mean is, you've become a truly extraordinary woman. (Cordy grins) I know we haven't always gotten along, but - I think that we, you know, we..."

Cordy: "Groo?"

Angel: "Yes! We - we-we grew - closer together, I think..."

Cordy runs past Angel yelling: "Groo!"


Try that one again
CORDELIA
: Were we in love?
ANGEL: 
Hmm.
CORDELIA
: Were we?
ANGEL: 
What?
CORDELIA: 
In love?
ANGEL: 
With each other?
CORDELIA: 
Mister, if you start giving me the run-around—
ANGEL: 
I'm not. (stands) I'm not.
CORDELIA
: Then tell me the truth!
ANGEL: 
I don't know.
CORDELIA
: You don't know?
ANGEL: 
Well, I'm not sure.

No, like this
BUFFY: Oh, this honesty stuff is fun.
ANGEL: There's no comparison. In 243 years I've loved exactly one person.
BUFFY: Oh. (beat) It's me, right?
He smiles.

[Mathieu]

And your point is? Angel always loved Buffy, never loved Cordy the same way?

I agree.

[ptnewell]

Mathieu: Sure, that's part of it. But another point is that Cordy often has trouble understanding Angel. The Buffy-Angel conversations are usually gems. Cordy's "Lost me in the middle..." line (from the "Waiting in the Wing's" dialog) is one example, but there are lots more.
I also think it's funny to compare the delicate way Buffy puts some things with the way Cordy does.
Pat

[Mathieu]

May 28, 2009 12:28:12 GMT -5 ptnewell said:

Mathieu: Sure, that's part of it. But another point is that Cordy often has trouble understanding Angel. The Buffy-Angel conversations are usually gems. Cordy's "Lost me in the middle..." line (from the "Waiting in the Wing's" dialog) is one example, but there are lots more.
I also think it's funny to compare the delicate way Buffy puts some things with the way Cordy does.
Pat

I think Buffy also had a hard time understanding Angel sometimes.

Here's a quote stolen from another thread:

Angel: It's alright. I'll walk you there.
Buffy: Look, I don't need an escort. I'm a big girl. Superpowers, remember? I don't need you crowding me.
Angel: I didn't think I was.
Buffy: No, of course you don't. You just show up at the prom and then you disappear into the ozone. For all I know, you left town.
Angel: Are you mad at me for being around too much or for not being around enough?
Buffy: Duh. Yes.
Angel: Which?
Buffy: What?
Angel: I don't get you.
Buffy: No, you don't, not anymore.
Angel: Are you just making this harder to make this easier on yourself?
Buffy: Could we stop with the brain-teasers? I just wish it was over, done.


Or maybe it was Angel who didn't get Buffy.

[ptnewell]

This is one of three times Buffy picks a fight with Angel (your passage is from Graduation Day Pt 1, and it may be embarrassing but I don't have to look it up). Angel had just broken up with Buffy the previous episode. In a literal reading it seems like Buffy doesn't make sense, and Angel takes a moment to realize what is going on. His final line ("Are you just making this harder to make this easier on yourself?") is exactly right, though. Buffy is picking a fight to make the break-up easier.
The other two times Buffy deliberately picks a fight with Angel are "When She Was Bad" and "Sanctuary".

Even when they fight they understand each other better than any other couple (though Fred and Wesley have some nice conversations too).

[Nina]

Comparing random quotes is not really a good way of making a point. Angel loves Cordelia and he loves Buffy. They play different roles in his life (Cordelia is more his bedrock/best friend and kind of lover, Buffy is more his soulmate and love of his life), but he loves them both, a lot.


I always thought that Cordelia accepted Angel much more than Buffy (and Angel himself) did. Cordelia was always more like ; "You're a vampire, I know ... whatever, let's be best friends." Buffy and Angel are always trying to forget the vampire part or making a huge deal out of it. Both are dreaming of Angel being human and all.

One of the things that always annoyed me of the Buffy/Angel romance, was how little Buffy knew about Angel. It was always about Buffy, her problems, her hobbys and her dreams. Very rarely it was about Angel, and I doubt that Buffy knows little things about Angel. Does she knows that he loves hockey? cars? clothes? his hair? Is she aware that Angel hates dancing, can't sing but loves Mandy? Does she even know what Angel did in the 100 years before Sunnydale? Or what about his time in hell?
In BtVS Angel lacked personality, he was no person but a character. The mysterious, quiet, smart, understanding boyfriend with vampface. And there is nothing that hints that he was more human when he was around Buffy or that she is aware of his quirks and hobbys. So to make this all short; Does Buffy know the person Angel?

I'm a sucker for the forever love and soulmate stuff, that's why I'm pretty much a Banger shipper. But if I look to the facts and behavior of the characters, Cordelia and Angel know eachother much better than Buffy & Angel. And Cordelia is open for Angel the vampire (as long he is not evil), while Buffy loves him despite his fangs but wishes that he was not a vampire, which means that she can never truly accept Angel as what he is. And because Angel can't do that either, it's nice when he is with somebody who can. I think that Cordelia is the most of all his best friend and a lover on the second place.

[Emmie]

Nina, Buffy's lack of knowledge wasn't from disinterest or her being self-centered. She most desperately wanted to know more about Angel. Angel was the one reluctant to share himself with anyone. All that opening up you see with Angel on AtS was made possible through his connection with Buffy in BtVS. I think Cordy gets all this credit for being close to Angel when Buffy is the one who made him even care about humanity at all.

Buffy was the one who unscrewed Angel's nigh unopenable jar and Cordy was the one who got to enjoy all the gooey goodness inside. That's my take though. Buffy was the one who reignited his humanity. Cordy was the one who got to connect to it more after Angel left Sunnydale.

Nina all the stuff that you're listing about Angel's hobbies were all developed during AtS, how could Buffy know them when the writers didn't know them yet? Does Cordy know what poetry Angel likes to read or what books he likes?

[Nina]

For the people who are not interested in my long (and probably badly written and spelled) post, the last alinea is a little summary.

Angel's personality and hobby didn't came from thin air in Ats, he went to movies, concerts, Las Vegas long before he showed up in Sunnydale. We know that his love for Mandy is already some decades old. It's not like Angel entered LA and *BAM* he has humor, personality and interests. The most of that was there all the time. And it's the fault of the writers that he never showed anything in Sunnydale, but it's not like LA gives him personality, it must've been there all the time if it was there before and after Sunnydale.

And I don't really mean that it was Buffy showing disinterested or being self-centered (although it's a returning theme in her relations; Angel, Riley and Spike were all three all-about-Buffy in a pretty unhealthy way.) But it happened, and I do think that is a serious problem for a relation. Angel was and is not very open (and I do think that Cordelia should get serious credits for being able to open Angel up.) but in that case I would say ... ask more questions. I can't see why Angel wouldn't answer questions about his favourite music, movies, books or about what he did before he went to Sunnydale. Or something very normal like his real name. Try to get him far enough that he tells things about himself that have nothing to do with murder, vampires or doomed futures. Angel needed that, and I don't really blame Buffy for not asking it (although I don't understand why she never asked him those kind of questions in those 3 years) ... but I do think that this is what the relation was (and is still) lacking and that's why I disagree that Buffy & Angel know and accept eachother much better than Angel & Cordelia. Which is the point of my post .. yes it didn't really made sense how the writers dealed with Angel's personality in BtVS but it is like it is and that is that Buffy doesn't know much about Angel and Cordelia does know much more.

About Buffy doing all the work and Cordelia being able to harvest, I really disagree with that. Yes, Buffy brought Angel back into the world. But he was still closed off and lonely when we saw him in 'City of...'. His friends, with Cordelia as the most important one, are the ones who really got Angel into the world of humans. And it was always Cordelia who was able to make some of his issues a bit less bad. She was mocking him, was really honest or said things like this;

Cordy: “People really *do* change.”
Angel: “Yes they do. And sometimes they change back. - If the day ever comes that I...”
Cordy: “Oh, I’ll kill you dead!”
Angel blinks: “Thanks.”
Cordy turns to go: “What are friends for?”

Cordelia has something that brings the most human sides of Angel out, and I think that she deserves credit for that. There is a reason why he is much more honest to Cordelia than to other characters. She cuts right through his crap and asks the questions that need to be asked. Or she mocks him when he is acting stupid, and when he is really stopid she calls him out on that. It's Cordelia's honesty that really does the trick. Angel is more comfortable with himself and the world than he was before LA and Cordelia is a big factor in that.

Buffy played an important part in Angel's growth, she inspired him to fight and she was the first person who ever treated Angel as a human and loved him. She did a lot, don't get me wrong. But connecting Angel to the humans and opening him up was more Cordelia's work, Buffy never really did that. And Connor plays that role now.

About Cordelia not knowing which books Angel likes and stuff like that; she saw Angel read many times. She spends also a lot of time in his apartment and bedroom. I doubt that she never got an idea what kind of books Angel reads.

But to say it short;
Cordelia knows Angel better as a person, big whoop ... she is his best friend. Darla probably knows him best.

Angel has many important people in his life; Darla showed him the world and his potential. Buffy loved and inspired him, Cordelia connected him to (his own) humanity, Connor forced him to become a man and he takes over Cordelia's role, Doyle pointed Angel the direction and Spike is Angel's equal. And I don't see a point in choosing the most important one or dismissing one to make the other look better. They all play a big role, they are all important in their own way.

[The Night Lord]

Angel has many important people in his life; Darla showed him the world and his potential. Buffy loved and inspired him, Cordelia connected him to (his own) humanity, Connor forced him to become a man and he takes over Cordelia's role, Doyle pointed Angel the direction and Spike is Angel's equal. And I don't see a point in choosing the most important one or dismissing one to make the other look better. They all play a big role, they are all important in their own way.

Me like lol. I like what you've got there, Nina *karma*

[Hallow Thorn]

Yeah, karma for Nina..

[Paul]

May 28, 2009 16:56:16 GMT -5 Nina said:

Angel has many important people in his life; Darla showed him the world and his potential. Buffy loved and inspired him, Cordelia connected him to (his own) humanity, Connor forced him to become a man and he takes over Cordelia's role, Doyle pointed Angel the direction and Spike is Angel's equal. And I don't see a point in choosing the most important one or dismissing one to make the other look better. They all play a big role, they are all important in their own way.

Great comment. The characters' relationships are all important in different ways, there's no definitive pairing. Although Cangel > Bangel as far as I'm concerned.

May 28, 2009 16:56:16 GMT -5 Nina said:

Cordelia has something that brings the most human sides of Angel out, and I think that she deserves credit for that. There is a reason why he is much more honest to Cordelia than to other characters. She cuts right through his crap and asks the questions that need to be asked. Or she mocks him when he is acting stupid, and when he is really stopid she calls him out on that. It's Cordelia's honesty that really does the trick. Angel is more comfortable with himself and the world than he was before LA and Cordelia is a big factor in that.

I just couldn't agree more with this statement if I tried.

[ptnewell]

Emmie makes some good points, including the strangeness of faulting Buffy for not knowing things the writers added years later. (Emmie: Wasn't it you who once pointed out that a girl who steals rocket launchers isn't going to fret about underage drinking? It seems to me I have seen many good posts by you).
Angel's fondness for hockey is mentioned twice (best as I recall). Once, when he bought tiny sticks for baby Connor. Cordy was off with Groo. The other mention was in S5. So it is just an assumption what Cordy knew. Conversely, Angel knew about Buffy's ice skating obsession, and even took her to an ice rink he knew was closed on Tuesday's. So it is just an assumption the subject never came up. So only if we assume Cordy knew things and assume Buffy didn't, can we conclude Cordy knew more.
Cordy was Angel's best friend just for one season. Deep into S2, he was barely paying attention:

Angel: "Well, maybe she's just out on a date or with her friends or something."
Wesley: "That's unlikely."
Angel: "It's Friday night, Wesley."
Wesley: "So?"
Angel: "So, we are talking about the same Cordelia Chase, right?"
Wesley turns to face Angel: "That's correct."
Angel: "Knowing her..."
Wesley: "But you don't. You don't know her at all. For months now you haven't cared to. Otherwise you might have realized that our Cordelia has become a very solitary girl. She's not the vain, carefree creature she once was...

By S4 we have amnesiac and evil Cordy. So really it is just the one season where she is his best friend. Personally I think over the course of the whole series Wesley is Angel's most important relation. There is a lot there between those two secretive and non-expressive men that comes out in interesting ways. Anyway, I would put Wes ahead of all the (non-Buffy) important people who affect Angel. I will probably write something detailed later to justify that in another thread.
Buffy has just enough flaws to make her human. Some of them, like her tendency to isolate herself, actually are endearing to me. But that also sounds like a long separate argument.
But Angel clearly owes more to Buffy than anyone. He spent a century friendless. Everyone who found out about his vampire status distrusted him. Then Buffy inspired him to try to help (mostly in the background). Next she trusted him when even after she found out he was a vampire, and even when the evidence was strongly against him. Later, in S3 "Amends" she convinced him to try to do something to seek atonement, seek a reason for being back in the world. This led him to become a champion.
So we are comparing that to Cordelia. Who was his best friend for most of one year.

[Emmie]

Word on that. Wesley is absolutely important to Angel, too. I think that's taken for granted. And it's funny that you point out that Cordy was best friend to Angel for only one season and this was the season where she disappeared with Groo for a big number of episodes. Let's also factor in that Cordy knew Angel so well at this point in time that she didn't even realize he had feelings for her. I also find it interesting that Cordy is given credit for bringing out this side of humanity for Angel when really it's everyone that does that (Fred, Gunn, Wesley, Cordy and most important of all - Connor).


LMAO at Paul. You quoted Nina where she was espousing not putting one relationship over another then you break out your "Cangel > Bangel" creds. Nice. ;D

I agree that it does get a bit tiresome comparing people as they are important to Angel here. I'd add Wesley to that list of people.

To me, Buffy and Connor are the most significant people in Angel's history. In a positive way that is. Darla showed him his potential for evil. Cordy helped him on the path he was already on. Buffy inspired him to be a hero, to help others and humanity, she made him "feel like a human being" and finally know love for the first time and true happiness after a hundred years of recrimination and regret. Buffy loving Angel, both as a girl and the Slayer, represented forgiveness to Angel. The girl destined to kill him loved him against all odds and found him worthy of something more. That's like getting a Presidential pardon, only more dramatic and epic.

Connor too is the living embodiment of forgiveness for Angel and another strong tie to humanity for him. And it's interesting to note that the two people to most strongly tie Angel to humanity - Buffy and Connor - also bring about his greatest crimes against humanity: Angel losing his soul after Innocence, Angel trying to rescue Connor after he's kidnapped (nearly killing Wes, unleashing demons in the Hyperion to open a portal to Quortoth, etc) and finally mind-raping his friends to save Connor in Home.

[Wyndam]

I agree on the Wesley front, obviously. I just posted a lot in response to Angel and Wesley's friendship, but I think I will wait until another thread is started. I look forward to your thread about that ptnewell. You sure have started a lot of fun discussions lately! ;D

As for the subject of this thread, I definitely agree that Buffy and Cordelia have served a different purpose in terms of humanizing Angel. While I have started to really like the idea of Angel/Cordy over the years, it is impossible to deny that without Buffy, Angel would still be eating rat guts. Nothing that either of them did for him can be ignored, as both were equally as important, whether romantically or in crafting him into the man he is today.

[buffyfan21]

I agree with what most everyone has said here, and that is the fact that both Buffy and Cordelia were important to Angel's life in different ways. With that in mind, it kinda makes the whole debate over who knew Angel better seem kinda pointless if you think about it. I think that both Buffy and Cordelia should be equally credited for providing Angel with appropriate needs at different points in his life. Sure, maybe Buffy and Cordelia both got to see different sides of Angel, but I think we can all agree that both women loved him very much.

And as far as the assumption that Buffy never got to know any real details of Angel's life, I don't believe this is the case. Angel and Buffy spent times alone together, I'm sure at some point during their conversations something about Angel's past life must have come up. Yeah, they were seen doing a lot of smooching on the show , but I'm sure at some point during the course of their relationship there was some actual talking involved. I just have a hard time believing that things about Angel's life pre-Sunnydale never came up. Take for example the fact that there were a few times that we know of, that Buffy was seen in Angel's apartment with him. Now, from the brief glimpses we got of Angel's place, it looked as though he had collected some very interesting artifacts over the years. I'm sure at some point during her time spent in Angel's abode, she must have inquired about some of the things she saw there. That's my logic on the subject anyway. Because saying that Buffy never really knew Angel, portrays their relationship as kind of empty and I hate to think of it that way.

If you can't tell, I am a Bangel shipper through and through, but that being said, I respect that all the women in Angel's life have meant a great deal to him and played a huge part in his development.

[buffyfan21]

May 29, 2009 9:25:54 GMT -5 ptnewell said:

Conversely, Angel knew about Buffy's ice skating obsession, and even took her to an ice rink he knew was closed on Tuesday's. So it is just an assumption the subject never came up. So only if we assume Cordy knew things and assume Buffy didn't, can we conclude Cordy knew more.

And the whole ice skating movie obsession is just another example of an occasion where discussion of Angel's past may have come up. It seems perfectly reasonable that following discussion of her childhood, Buffy may have inquired as to what Angel's childhood was like growing up, or what hobbies he enjoyed. You can make the argument that he really kept to himself in Sunnydale, which is true, but I'm sure at some point Buffy's curiosity must have gotten the best of her and she would have asked him about it. That's my reasoning anyway. Just because we didn't see it on screen, doesn't mean it didn't happen.

[lightandmagic]

I think I'm gonna side with Nina on this one, although I do partially agree with Emmie.

I do think that Buffy was the one that began to open Angel up to humanity, I mean even what Angelus says when he first turns back, she was the only girl to make him feel human (and for that she must die, haha), so Angel/us readily admits that it is Buffy that connects him to humanity initially.

However, I think it's unfair to say that Cordelia just benefited from 'the gooey goodness' inside. It was Angel's friendship with both Wesley and Cordelia that truly opened him up. Cordelia was constantly trying to get him to socialize, and they actually talked to one another and shared thoughts and feelings and all that junk.

With Buffy it was generally Angel warning Buffy of what his underground contacts have heard, them both being scared for each other's lives, and both saying I love you a lot. We don't get to see tons of conversations between the two of them that are just friendly, normal conversations. He may have been connected to humanity through her, but he needed friendship as well and he was certainly alone in that department while in Sunnydale.

And I completely disagree with people who have said they were only really friends for one season. Angel may not have understood Cordelia, but they were definitely friends. Look back at To Shanshu in LA when both Cordelia and Wesley are put in mortal danger by Wolfram and Hart. Angel isn't just trying to stop it to help the world, he's trying to stop them because he's pissed at how they've harmed them both. When he gets Gunn to protect them, he tells him these are people that he cares about.

I think the strongest example that really proves how much Angel needs Cordelia is by and far Birthday. Not only does Angel beg to higher powers to help Cordelia because he needs her, in Cordelia's alternate universe where she's a star, Angel has gone completely mad. Yes, he now has the visions, but Angel explicitly said in the episode he needs her, and then later, when she's gone, he's gone completely insane. I remember there was commentary or an interview on the episode where the writer stated it wasn't the visions that made him mad, it was the abscence of Cordy.

And he's still grieving over her loss, I mean, he named his dragon after her, which I think is a clear sign of how much he misses her. Compare this to the premiere of season 3 of Angel, when Angel was angry at himself for not being all that upset that Buffy was gone.

[gumgnome]

I think it's likely to be the needs of the narrative that decide what elements of the Buffy/Angel or Buffy/Cordelia relationship we see. In Buffy S1-3, we hardly need scenes of idle conversation and simple friendship between Buffy and Angel because those scenes are readily and frequently supplied by Buffy and her Willow/Xander. Therefore, the narrative gives us the scenes that only Buffy/Angel can give - her romantic attachment to him.

Contrast this with AtS. Angel really has no friends outside the Angel Investigations bunch, and of all of them, the most friendly and likely to engage Angel in purely social conversation is Cordelia. This means that if the writers want a trivial/everyday/social conversation surrounding Angel, they will immediately reach for Cordy.

With the above, I find it hard to judge which girl knew him better, or opened him up more. A lot of the more everyday social interactions between Buffy and Angel would be superfluous to the plot, which would not necessarily be true of those he shares with Cordelia.

[Nicholas]

EW. No way in hell can someone say that Angel loved Cordelia anything like he loved Buffy.

[The Night Lord]

I can