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Post by henzINNIT on Dec 18, 2008 10:47:19 GMT -5
"It Started With a Girl" is the first line of ATF, as well as the intro to the show.
Connor's dead? GTFO! Angel said in Not Fade Away that as long as Connor was okay, W+H could never destroy him. Lets watch that man go down the pan shall we... (poor bastard)
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Post by michellebuffyfest on Dec 18, 2008 11:23:49 GMT -5
im fairly sure the blank panel was deliberate What's your interpretation on its meaning because I have no idea. |
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Post by monkeypie on Dec 18, 2008 11:49:17 GMT -5
its what illyria wants. Nothing.
Its just emphasizing what George is saying in the two neighbouring panels i think =]
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Post by Wyndam on Dec 18, 2008 12:06:14 GMT -5
its what illyria wants. Nothing. Its just emphasizing what George is saying in the two neighbouring panels i think =] This is how I interpreted the blank panel as well. Illyria wants to end existence, therefore the panel showed nothing to reflect what Illyria wanted to do with the world. |
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jellymoff
Ensouled Vampire
Claimer of Funn[Mo0:0]
Posts: 1,174
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Post by jellymoff on Dec 18, 2008 12:24:03 GMT -5
I like that we finally got to see Spike and Betta George acknowledge each other.
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Ethros
Novice Witch
I beat the bad guys[Mo0:0]
Posts: 291
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Post by Ethros on Dec 18, 2008 13:10:44 GMT -5
Awesome-o. Easily the best of the series so far, and probably the most exciting and gripping comic I've ever read. I was urging Angel to finish Gunn though  |
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Post by Wyndam on Dec 18, 2008 13:12:30 GMT -5
I like that we finally got to see Spike and Betta George acknowledge each other. Me too, that was a great scene. Spike: What, just because you're not there doesn't mean it didn't happen. I'm mates with a telepathic fish, you practically dated a dragon, let's move on.Classic. |
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Post by hitnrun017 on Dec 18, 2008 14:35:32 GMT -5
HOLY *bleeping* *bleep*!
I kept reading theories that Connor would die, and I just laughed them off. There is no way a character that major would die, there is also no reason for it. I was shocked as hell. This entire issue was just perfection. I can't think of ONE part that I didn't love. Just when I thought After the Fall couldn't get any better, I was proved wrong once again.
Angel's reaction the second after Connor got stabbed is probably my favorite thing about this issue. "World has just ended" and "Can't tell if things are going hazy because of Illyria or because of what just happened" <<< Probably the best writing in the series so far. The death itself was hard to read, you knew he wasn't coming back from that. The tears in Gunn's eyes when he tells Angel to "do it" was also perfect.
Best art of the series: the background, the flames... especially the panels of Illyria standing still.
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Whedon Fan
Ensouled Vampire
Joss Is Boss
Banner & Avatar Made By CBG[Mo0:3][Mo0:3]
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Post by Whedon Fan on Dec 18, 2008 19:17:17 GMT -5
Spike: What, just because you're not there doesn't mean it didn't happen. I'm mates with a telepathic fish, you practically dated a dragon, let's move on. Total shout from Brina Lynch to all the cannon whiners. This makes it official now accept it people. Also Brian..."Cue The Music" amazing line and great detail to the show and slow motion walk. Brilliant issue though I can't believe they killed off Connor so soon. Kill him off I suppose but not by being stabbed with a sword by Gunn, come on Connor deserved a better death than that. Groo had a better death than him...killed by a tentical Illyria that is the way to go! I wonder what the white flash was? Maybe Angel turning back into vampire or was it a mistake? Spike jumping in for Angel when that "tank" vampire was going for him...nice Spike moment. I like to think of Spike and ANgel as brothers. They moan, they fight, they even at times hate eachother but when it comes down to it they'll help eachother out. Just my opinion though. :   |
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Post by Emmie on Dec 18, 2008 20:03:41 GMT -5
I recently compared making those pieces canon as tantamount to a retcon of Season 5 canon history. That makes it a bigger deal that just announcing it's canon, but it's actually changing what we know to be the true events of AtS season 5. To me, the only person who can go around rewriting 'verse history is Joss.
I'd have been totally okay if when those pieces were written, they were announced as canon works. That's cool by me. I really love those comics. But them being made canon by a shout-out in AtF feels like a sly way to sneak it through and make it legitimate. Using an already canon piece (it's canon nature relying on Whedon's name on it) to make the past works legitimate.
I think Asylum would work as a canon comic. But it wasn't written as canon and I think ret-conning something into canon is a Joss thing. Let the Supreme Court of Joss be the power to sustain or overrule that judgment.
Clearly Joss takes a flexible view on canon at times (his statement to throw out Season 8 if he could ever make a Buffy movie). But when he does wish to establish something as canon, he does it. That's why he stated that Season 8 was canon. And nobody can argue with that.
At best, people can now say that Asylum and Shadow Puppets are debatable canon. Which I'm not thankful for happening at all really. I don't want the Buffyverse to become a realm of debatable canon like Star Wars or Star Trek or the multiple canons of the DC and Marvel world.
But I don't think the pieces are canon and I think there's a fair argument for why they aren't. That means it's not open and shut.
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Post by CowboyGuy on Dec 18, 2008 20:35:51 GMT -5
I'm needing to calm myself down after reading this issue right now... Connor's death was very shocking to me and I am surprised that I am affected by it. I feel so bad for Angel I even got a little teary-eyed. I always just hated Connor but now that he really is dead, it seems just so sad. |
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patxshand
Ensouled Vampire
Writer/director/Amy Acker's husband.[Mo0:0]
Posts: 1,918
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Post by patxshand on Dec 18, 2008 21:06:12 GMT -5
I recently compared making those pieces canon as tantamount to a retcon of Season 5 canon history. That makes it a bigger deal that just announcing it's canon, but it's actually changing what we know to be the true events of AtS season 5. To me, the only person who can go around rewriting 'verse history is Joss. It's not a retcon at all, by definition. A retcon would change established bits of continuity. The SPIKE books change nothing, but instead add stuff. It's like saying that the "Tales of the Vampires" books are retcons of the history of Buffy, because they add stories to already established works. "Numb" isn't a retcon of "Amends" by any definition, it's just an elaboration. If "Spike: Asylum" established that Russel Winters, for example, survived "City Of," it would be a retcon. But to place it in Season Five isn't, the same way that the flashback in Buffy #8 isn't a retcon of Season Three. It's not rewriting history, it's building on it. |
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Post by Emmie on Dec 18, 2008 21:11:57 GMT -5
retcon - v. to retroactively revise (a plot, storyline, character, event, history, etc.), usu. by reinterpreting past events, or by theorizing how the present would be different if past events had not happened or had happened differently. Adding to what was established continuity.
Adding to continuity *is* retconning the past continuity. It's extending it and making it different. A retcon doesn't have to contradict the established continuity overtly, but simply by adding to it "adding to what was established continuity" that was not originally intended. Asylum and Shadow Puppets fit well into the established continuity, but just because they fit and because there's a shout out to Spike having known Betta George in AtF doesn't make them canon. How does Lynch's authority to write AtF which is canon extend to him also being able to retroactively declare his past works as canon?
A retcon at it's base form is to retroactively change continuity. Making Asylum and Shadow Puppets canon *does* change the canon continuity. It's a retcon because it does so after that continuity was established.
It's dually retroactive in nature because it's also being argued that it's *now* canon when it wasn't before. If it was written with the intention of it being canon, yes it would be more of an elaboration. But it's a retcon now to make it canon.
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Malsad
Descendant of a Toaster Oven
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Post by Malsad on Dec 18, 2008 21:17:02 GMT -5
no it isnt
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Post by Emmie on Dec 18, 2008 21:17:55 GMT -5
I'm not even sure what side you're taking with that. :smart: |
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Malsad
Descendant of a Toaster Oven
Attack Attack!
[Mo0:37]
Posts: 684
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Post by Malsad on Dec 18, 2008 21:19:46 GMT -5
im saying that Asylum and Shadow Puppets are not retcon
it isnt adding onto cont. but mearly puting between
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Post by Emmie on Dec 18, 2008 21:22:29 GMT -5
To make them canon *now* is to essentially retroactively change AtS season 5's established continuity.
I'm okay with the idea of them being made canon. But I don't think there's been an adequate argument for why they now *must* be canon.
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Malsad
Descendant of a Toaster Oven
Attack Attack!
[Mo0:37]
Posts: 684
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Post by Malsad on Dec 18, 2008 21:25:00 GMT -5
only in essence
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Post by Emmie on Dec 18, 2008 21:27:35 GMT -5
To make them canon *now* is to retroactively change the inherent nature of AtS season 5's established continuity.
Happier now? I still stand by that statement and I've elaborated a clear argument for why.
There I switched inherent with essence to clarify my meaning.
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patxshand
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Writer/director/Amy Acker's husband.[Mo0:0]
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Post by patxshand on Dec 18, 2008 21:28:12 GMT -5
You could pull a different definition of retcon from anywhere.
Such as...
"retconv. to retroactively revise (a plot, storyline, character, event, history, etc.), usu. by reinterpreting past events, or by theorizing how the present would be different if past events had not happened or had happened differently"
(http://www.doubletongued.org/index.php/dictionary/retcon/)
or
"Definition: This term has become more and more used in the world of comic books. A retcon is when a later writer changes the history of a comic book to accommodate their own storyline. The more comic books continue, especially in the case of Marvel and DC, the more history current writers have to wade through. Many feel that it is easier to change the continuity than to have to deal with it.
One famous, or infamous depending on your view, example of a retcon was when it was revealed that Norman Osborn was the father of Gwen Stacy's babies. When Gwen Stacy went to Europe after her father's death, it was revealed that she had been romanced by Norman in a moment of weakness. She gave birth to twins and wanted Peter to help raise them, but Norman found out and it was this that drove him to kidnap and kill her.
Sometimes the retcon will come under much fan scrutiny and more and more loopholes will be discovered in the retcon. That is one of the dangers with changing comic book history."
(http://comicbooks.about.com/od/glossary/g/retcon.htm)
The explanation you're giving for "retcon" isn't the way I've come to understand it, nor have I ever heard it used this way before. If Joss--or any writer--did an "in between the seasons" story (oh, how I wish), it wouldn't be a retcon, it would simply be an addition to past events. And, I know you disagree, I just don't see that as a retcon.
It's a moot point, because we've had this conversation before not two days ago, but I just don't think the word retcon should be used in this context, because--according to my understanding--the word doesn't apply.
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