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Post by Emmie on Dec 18, 2008 21:31:45 GMT -5
Which is why I originally said it's tantamount to a retcon in my first statement. It's a *big* deal to change somethings canon status. I was comparing it to a retcon as similar in nature. It also fits the definition in my mind because I consider it a retcon to make it canon when it wasn't canon before. I'm more saying that making it canon now, that action in itself, is the retcon.
So again, I'll ask how does Lynch's authority to write After the Fall (a canon work that's status relies on Whedon's name and involvement) extends to him now retroactively canonizing his past works that were not considered canon before?
The next interview that Jane Espenson comes out with, is she going to canonize her past Buffy comics that she wrote that fit seamlessly into the continuity of BtVS? They're not considered canon the way Season 8 is. She'd have just as much authority to do that as Lynch does. What if she references one of those non-canon comics in her upcoming Oz arc?
How about this for a new term since retcon seems to not sit well - Retroactive Canon.
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patxshand
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Post by patxshand on Dec 18, 2008 21:40:35 GMT -5
So again, I'll ask how does Lynch's authority to write After the Fall (a canon work that's status relies on Whedon's name and involvement) extend to him now retroactively canonizing his past works that were not considered canon before? Because I don't think Brian really cares about canon, and at this point, I don't think a lot of the fans do either. Well, Whedonesquers do, but they're a whole different beast. Brian considers his stories as part of Spike's character development, so it's more of a "If you want the stories, here they are." Which is pretty much exactly what Joss said about "Angel: After the Fall." You don't need 'em to enjoy the rest of canon, but if you want the stories, there they are. And they're good. I think we're taking the canon issue too seriously. Because honestly? I think Joss gave authority over to IDW when it comes to the Angel comics, because I'm not sure he's going to touch on that story again. So if Brian Lynch, Chris Ryall, or any of the IDW team says something is canon, I'm definitely taking their word for it. Because the story, for all intents and purposes, is over there now. In my opinion, anyway. |
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Malsad
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Post by Malsad on Dec 18, 2008 21:43:11 GMT -5
yes but Joss doesnt realy care bout the angels world
the only reason he co wrote ATF is because he wanted FOX to let him use angel charactors in S 8
and true dat Pat
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Post by hitnrun017 on Dec 18, 2008 21:53:17 GMT -5
Having not read Asylum and only the first two issues of Shadow Puppets (yes, I'm aware I'm missing out on greatness), I'll just say Spike and Betta George bonded over drinks at the Peppermint Stick.
What Pat said does make a certain kind of sense. If you want Asylum and Shadaw Puppets to fit in with continuity, so be it. If you don't, then cool. Me? I prefer the Peppermint Stick.
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Post by Emmie on Dec 18, 2008 21:54:40 GMT -5
Well, I think people jumping on saying that Asylum and Shadow Puppets are now canon is where all this interest came from. Canon is to be taken as seriously as any individual cares to view it. I'm just saying that we have some pretty clear rules established for the fans on how to understand what's canon currently. It helps some people to keep it clear when they're considering character development. Here's how Whedon views the canon topic: "Canon is key, as is continuity. If you are massive nerd. Which I am. I believe there's a demarcation between the creation and ancillary creations by different people. I'm all for that stuff, just like fanfic, but I like to know what's there's an absolutely official story-so-far, especially when something changes mediums, which my stuff seems to do a lot."People now saying that Asylum and Shadow Puppets are canon is introducing a whole new way of determining canon. Canon has never before been established to retroactively encompass works written years ago, thus Retroactive Canon. Established canon is done with it being the explicit intention that it's canon. Whedon said about doing Season 8, "We could do something and for once we could make it canon. We could make it officially what happened after the end of the show." Canon in the Buffyverse isn't something that you decide should just happen years after the fact. That isn't how the canon stories are created and that's never been the process for them. Asylum and Shadow Puppets don't fit into this process of how canon has always been established. I more get the feeling that it's Lynch thumbing his nose at the canon topic (of which we know he gets frustrated with) the way he did in Shadow Puppets with his "hate official cannon" line. Like what Ethan said, it's fine if you want to personally consider it what happened. But again, you're subscribing to the debatable canon subject here when you do so. Or the personal relativity of canon. yes but Joss doesnt realy care bout the angels world the only reason he co wrote ATF is because he wanted FOX to let him use angel charactors in S 8 Wow, I really disagree with that statement. Joss didn't have the ability to do Dollhouse, Cabin in the Woods, all his other projects, be a showrunner for Buffy Season 8 *and* run After the Fall. So he broke main parts of AtF with Lynch (Nina on BF recently said that Joss gave Lynch the instruction on his original proposal that more deaths needed to occur in his outline). Your personal opinion is that Joss doesn't care. I just think he picked someone he trusted to write After the Fall. The fact that he was involved shows he cared. Also, Joss doesn't need Fox's permission to use his characters in Season 8. When DH sold the rights to ANGEL to IDW, they maintained the right to use those characters when they wanted to. So that argument isn't a legitimate motivation for Whedon because it's not true. |
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Malsad
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Post by Malsad on Dec 18, 2008 22:05:03 GMT -5
i didnt say it
im looking for the quote
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Post by Emmie on Dec 18, 2008 22:06:02 GMT -5
Well, I don't really see how it could be a quote by Whedon considering it's not true that he needed Fox's permission since DH maintained the rights to use the characters when they wanted to. And it's IDW who's creating After the Fall and not Fox.
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Malsad
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Post by Malsad on Dec 18, 2008 22:12:06 GMT -5
it wasnt by joss
but by one of the writers
i read it last night
and i cant find it
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Post by Emmie on Dec 18, 2008 22:12:22 GMT -5
I think we're taking the canon issue too seriously. Because honestly? I think Joss gave authority over to IDW when it comes to the Angel comics, because I'm not sure he's going to touch on that story again. So if Brian Lynch, Chris Ryall, or any of the IDW team says something is canon, I'm definitely taking their word for it. Because the story, for all intents and purposes, is over there now. The one rule we've got for how canon is established is the creator, Joss Whedon, was involved and/or he explicitly says it's canon. The impression given by every writer of the 'verse is consideration for Joss overriding authority on the matter. Even Peter David (who's using Illyria in the first ever Whedonverse crossover in IDW's Fallen Angel) said he got "Joss Whedon's permission" to use the character. So even though the story is over at IDW, the characters are still Whedon's toys. All big moves made with these characters are done with either his express or implicit permission. it wasnt by joss but by one of the writers i read it last night and i cant find it I don't think *any* writer who's worked with and for Whedon in the past would ever say he didn't care about Angel's story. There's too much mutual respect between Whedon and his team of writers. Sorry, but whatever you read sounds like gossip rather than something coming from an authority. I've heard fans say Whedon doesn't care, but not someone who has actually worked with Whedon. Sorry I just don't believe it. It sounds wildly inaccurate. |
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patxshand
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Post by patxshand on Dec 18, 2008 22:19:13 GMT -5
I agree with some of the stuff you're saying, but I also stand by everything I said. And also, I have to reiterate how unimportant "canon" has become at this point. If people don't want to consider "Asylum" and "Shadow Puppets" part of the ongoing Angel story, well that's their issue. For me, it's essential to Spike's character development, and really makes his character arc from "Asylum" to "Shadow Puppets" to "Spike: After the Fall" all the more fantastic. It's a cohesive story, and they all feed into each other. Canon or not, those stories are as essential to the 'verse as any episode of Buffy or Angel.
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Post by Wyndam on Dec 18, 2008 22:25:07 GMT -5
I think we're taking the canon issue too seriously. Because honestly? I think Joss gave authority over to IDW when it comes to the Angel comics, because I'm not sure he's going to touch on that story again. So if Brian Lynch, Chris Ryall, or any of the IDW team says something is canon, I'm definitely taking their word for it. Because the story, for all intents and purposes, is over there now. In my opinion, anyway. When I first started catching up on the posts in this thread, I was going to post something exactly like this, so I am glad you did Pat.  When it comes to the canonicity of Angel comics, I look at it like this: this is all we are ever going to get with this series. There won't ever be a TV movie or follow up special, nothing. This is what we have right now, and it's a good thing. Brian wrote Asylum and Shadow Puppets, which helped him get the After the Fall gig, and both stories do not contradict anything that was on the show. That is acceptable canon for me. Joss is probably never going to actively touch this series again, so we have to look at what we have right now, and accept that as canon. So here is what we have: Angel: After the Fall is 100% non-debatable canon. We have references to past characters (Tok), and a full blown appearance by a character established in Asylum (George). Now in issue #15 we have Spike confirming he knows Betta George, which confirms that Asylum and Shadow Puppets have happened in the past. Since Joss is probably never going to post on Whedonesque with a breakdown about what is or isn't canon in the Angelverse, we need to accept the canonicity of the two Spike series, because we will never get an official answer either way. Just not going to happen. It is easy to go around and round about what is or isn't canon, but in the end, no one is *really* right. We have to look at what we have, and just accept it. While Joss may be the #1 authority about what is or isn't canon when it comes to Buffy, we just do not have that luxury with Angel. It is what it is. |
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Post by Emmie on Dec 18, 2008 22:28:34 GMT -5
Well, I think the fact that people jump onto calling stories canon and showing excitement at it then getting into a heated debate about canon shows it does matter. To a certain extent.
I'm not making a judgment on the value of those stories because I think they're great and they do fit into continuity. I don't think most people would call it essential though to understanding and appreciating the story. Great stories - yes, essential - no. But again that's personal opinion.
Also, I can see the argument for Asylum (the characters have been used in AtF) but what leg is Shadow Puppets standing on besides Lynch having penned it? Unless I'm forgetting something in Shadow Puppets.
ETA after Wyndam's post: Just wanted to be clear, I'm not arguing that After the Fall or Aftermath aren't canon. I just find it weird how Asylum and Shadow Puppets for years weren't considered canon and now suddenly they are. And the main argument for people who accept this abrupt and sudden change is because it fits what they now view as canon, not what has been the established pattern of canon projects in the 'verse.
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Post by hitnrun017 on Dec 18, 2008 22:39:10 GMT -5
Angel: After the Fall is 100% non-debatable canon. We have references to past characters (Tok), and a full blown appearance by a character established in Asylum (George). Now in issue #15 we have Spike confirming he knows Betta George, which confirms that Asylum and Shadow Puppets have happened in the past. Gotta disagree with you there. So Spike mentions that he knows George, does that really mean that Asylum and Shadow Puppets happened? When they first came out, there was no intention of them being looked at as canon. I don't think Spike mentioning him knowing George means *POOF*, these two stories are official. My head hurts. It's like fricken segregation, only with comics. But yeah, I can sort of see them fitting in with continuity, and if people want to look at them as being official then that's cool. I just don't. I know nothing about Asylum, but I just have a hard time imagining Spike and Lorne flying to Japan to take out thousands of evil ninja puppets in the middle of Season 5. |
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Post by wenxina on Dec 18, 2008 22:42:42 GMT -5
it wasnt by joss but by one of the writers i read it last night and i cant find it This the quote you're looking for? It's over at the S8 #20 Q&A. |
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Post by Wyndam on Dec 18, 2008 22:47:19 GMT -5
ETA after Wyndam's post: Just wanted to be clear, I'm not arguing that After the Fall or Aftermath aren't canon. I just find it weird how Asylum and Shadow Puppets for years weren't considered canon and now suddenly they are. And the main argument for people who accept this abrupt and sudden change is because it fits what they now view as canon, not what has been the established pattern of canon projects in the 'verse. lol Sorry, I know you weren't debating the canonicity of AtF and Aftermath, I was just forming a check list of sorts - "What we know so far..." type thing. Sorry for the confuzzling. Me =  . As for why I consider Asylum and Shadow Puppets canon now, well that is similar to what Pat said as well. It all has to do with Spike really and how Asylum, Shadow Puppets, Spike: AtF, and now Angel: AtF have had some serious character development for him. All four combined create a very unique path for Spike, and that has everything to do with Brian. He was given the liberty from Joss to take a plot outline and develop a cohesive story. That story also happens to include the development that Spike started way back in Asylum. I think back when Asylum and Shadow Puppets first came out, they weren't considered canon, because at that point, there was no Angel: After the Fall yet, and all of IDW's comics at that point were not considered canon. Then AtF came around, and Brian was able to continue Spike's development. Yes characters from his past Spike stories were referenced and George makes an appearance in most of the issues, but when read with Asylum, and Shadow Puppets, and then Spike: AtF it all becomes one cohesive, neat story. Because of that, I have no problem saying the first two Spike penned comics by Brian are now canon. |
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Post by wenxina on Dec 18, 2008 22:50:09 GMT -5
So, this is pretty much a PM between Emmie and myself, but I guess I thought I'd share my thoughts on the whole canon issue.
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Post by Emmie on Dec 18, 2008 22:55:15 GMT -5
Well, I think that interpretation of Joss' actions isn't taking his care of the characters into consideration. That makes Joss out to be a suit when I've always witnessed how obsessively he cares about the characters he created. Joss has most recently said that Illyria is his favorite character in the 'verse. And now he doesn't care? I think Allie can speak to Joss recognizing the importance of keeping those characters available to him in the future, but I don't think that also equates to him not caring about them.
Otherwise why would some of the elements of Season 6 that Joss created have been incorporated into AtF? If anything, I think Allie phrased that answer badly.
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Post by hitnrun017 on Dec 18, 2008 22:56:09 GMT -5
Hey! Wasn't issue 15 great?! I can't believe Illyria ate Groo and flying Cordy-horse. Sort of sickening. I never expected Groo to die, and if he did, him being EATEN by ILLYRIA would be wayyy down the list. And why do all the cute animals have to die?! I do love that Angel had a mourning moment for Cordy the fun dragon.
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Post by Emmie on Dec 18, 2008 23:00:18 GMT -5
Yeah, I loved that moment when Angel just closed his eyes about Cordy the Dragon. I loved Cordragon so it was nice to have that moment of grieving.
Favorite fun line from the issue: Care Bear Love Stare!
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Post by wenxina on Dec 18, 2008 23:04:38 GMT -5
I really enjoyed the issue. No attack of the dull brown colorist, thank goodness, and Groo getting chomped... wasn't expected, but it didn't really tug at any heartstrings either. I actually really disliked Groo. The bit that got me was the Connor bit. It just struck me how after all that Angel has done to keep his son safe, it all falls to crap anyway. The whole premise of S5 came about because of Angel's last-ditch effort to save Connor, but that choice eventually led to the events of "Not Fade Away", which led directly to the events of AtF.
Great writing though.
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