Angel: After The Fall - Issue 17

[Hallow Thorn]

Feb 12, 2009 6:41:57 GMT -5 patxshand said:

Well, it says "she." I'm thinking it's probably Cordy letting Angel know that Fred and Wes are okay, as a callback to her warm breeze/nice leaves from #9.

Yes, Thats what I was going to say after I read that part again (I did'nt want to read much of it yet) It is so nice that Cordy is watching over Angel and her way of telling him that Fred and Wes are OK and are together... If anything the 2 best things that I will take away from After the fall.

[Fireball]

What a lovely nice carm issue. After the Fall has simply been amazing, It really felt like Angel. Thank you Brian and everyone involved.

Now, onto Aftermath!

[AndrewCrossett]

I'm still trying to deal with my astonishment that Joss Whedon just gave us a happy ending.

(I'm terrified of what he's going to do to Buffy and her friends to make up for it. )

[Wyndam]

Feb 13, 2009 10:20:55 GMT -5 AndrewCrossett said:

I'm still trying to deal with my astonishment that Joss Whedon just gave us a happy ending.

(I'm terrified of what he's going to do to Buffy and her friends to make up for it. )

Well not completely happy, as Angel lost Wesley (again), and Gunn's condition pretty much blows, but I get what you mean.

As for Buffy, I agree, I definitely think Season 8 will be ending in a huge way. Probably a cliffhanger which will set up whatever is different about Season 9 (as Joss has said it will be a very different season).

[AndrewCrossett]

Feb 13, 2009 11:03:52 GMT -5 Wyndam said:

As for Buffy, I agree, I definitely think Season 8 will be ending in a huge way. Probably a cliffhanger which will set up whatever is different about Season 9 (as Joss has said it will be a very different season).

I think Season 8 will end with Team Buffy and Team Angel uniting in the big battle against Evil (alluded to in "Fray") which causes demons and vampires and magic to be banished from the Earth for a long time. They win, but all or most of the major characters die in the battle, regroup in the afterworld, and... since there's now nothing to balance the influence of the Powers That Be on the affairs of humanity... season 9 is their final battle is to cut the Powers off from their ability to influence our world. And humanity is left to find its own destiny on its own terms, with no more prophecies or visions. The end.

(This is probably why I don't write for Mutant Enemy. )

[BenTaylor3907]

Feb 13, 2009 11:13:13 GMT -5 AndrewCrossett said:

Team Buffy and Team Angel uniting in the big battle against Evil

That would be EPIC! Although I think they should stay separate in the end. I mean they could cross over in the meantime and whatnot but in the finale, Teams A & B should go their own way. You know?
(My views change constantly so what I said above isn't permanent).

Who the heck is Kazlow? Did I miss something? Little demon? Where?

[patxshand]

Kozlow is the little demon from After the Fall #2 who claims he is the new Lord of Westwood before he gets pwned by the many other demons who are gunning for the title.

[Nicholas]

Bryan Lynch! Is Aftermath canon!?

[Paul]

As someone who hasn't always been happy with Angel: After the Fall during it's run (particularly the middle, Runge-drawn issues), I have to say that this issue gave me a warm glow and made the whole series worthwhile. There are so many moments that I loved that I think I'm just going to list them:

The art. These past three issues have looked great.
The information woman wanting to "team up" with Angel now that he's a celebrity superhero. She was such a slut.
Nina helping Angel in the library. She has been an utterly pathetic character, both on the show and in the comics, and this was a nice scene which made her patheticness almost endearing. Surprised and happy she finally got enough panel time to resonate.
Dirty-minded Groo and his "two Cordys" line. Lovely way to say goodbye to his character.
Jeremy! Lovely moment with him proposing to Pam from The Office. I hope to see him again *hint for Spike ongoing series*.
Seeing Gwen's guilt and continuing intimacy problems. Surpised Nate still wants to touch her after she fried him though.
Wesley and Fred's dedication (Wyndam, I hate you for ruining this moment by pointing out that spelling mistake). I also like how they alluded to Fred and Wesley being together via Angel's emotions, but not actually confirming it. Nice way to satisfy the optimists, without retconning the whole "her soul was destroyed" thing, for those of us who actually like that tragic possibility.
Cordelia's continual unseen presence.
The return of Kr'ph. My friend and I have enjoyed making fun of him, mostly due to his silly name (try saying it out loud). Having him back was a nice bookend to #1.
The conclusion to the Angel/Spike relationship. I've wondered what Spike's arc was in this series, since it wasn't altogether clear. This issue showed that, while season five was about setting Spike up as an Angel foil and the friction that arose from that, AtF was about them making peace and accepting each other's presence. I still wish Spike had been given more to do across the series than making excessive jokes and babysitting Illyria, but the scene in the car added a little more depth to his journey. With him going off to star in his own series, this was a necessary coda to his relationship with Angel.
George's witty dialogue.
The Silver Lake sign.
Acknowledging that the Demon Lords are still out there. Teeth's death was a shock, although it would've been nice to see Non.
Illyria fighting in Fred's honor. Not sure why Spike's in such a huff with her though.
Lorne being the one who quietly watches over Gunn in his coma. Totally in-character.
Angel's empathy with Gunn, and Gunn continuing the redemption/"the fight never ends" themes that are crucial to the series.
The final page. Beautful imagery and dialogue, and the perfect end to the series.

Things I don't like:

Lack of Connor. Suppose he got his conclusion last issue, but still! It's not a huge problem, I'm just nitpicking.
Lack of Spider. Don't get me wrong, I hate her, but she appeared quite a bit and she deserved to have a final scene, especially since she was on the cover! I have an uncomfortable feeling she'll be in the Spike series. Meh.

Just wanted to thank Brian Lynch, since I know he'll be lurking around here somewhere. I may not have liked every issue, but overall After the Fall has been an enjoyable read and the last three issues in particular have been stellar. Good luck with Spike!

[Nina]

I can't add much to all the positive comments and posts that are already made. I loved this issue so much, it's probably my favourite. It already started great with the woman who would do anything to spend time with Angel, god some people are pathetic. And the ending was amazing, Angel forgives Gunn and with that he forgives Wesley. Which was also my favourite scene in the issue. Loved to see Nina again and loved how she looked.

Can Beta George be Spike's side-kick? I love that fish.

great art, great colors and brilliant writing. Thanks to everybody involved.

[AndrewCrossett]

Feb 13, 2009 13:47:55 GMT -5 Paul said:

I also like how they alluded to Fred and Wesley being together via Angel's emotions, but not actually confirming it. Nice way to satisfy the optimists, without retconning the whole "her soul was destroyed" thing, for those of us who actually like that tragic possibility.

I've always wondered what Joss's reason was for inflicting that cruel a fate on Fred particularly. Was it his way of answering the people who claim that death has no meaning in his 'verse because everyone always comes back somehow?

I really didn't like it. I thought it rendered the entire existence of the Fred character pretty much meaningless. I like that the possibility of her existence is open. It bothers me to think of a world in which the soul of a good person can be destroyed by evil. It strikes me as the ultimate triumph of evil over good and injustice over justice, and suggests that everything is pointless because the next life is as unjust as this one is.

[Paul]

Feb 13, 2009 15:48:06 GMT -5 AndrewCrossett said:

Feb 13, 2009 13:47:55 GMT -5 Paul said:

I also like how they alluded to Fred and Wesley being together via Angel's emotions, but not actually confirming it. Nice way to satisfy the optimists, without retconning the whole "her soul was destroyed" thing, for those of us who actually like that tragic possibility.

I've always wondered what Joss's reason was for inflicting that cruel a fate on Fred particularly. Was it his way of answering the people who claim that death has no meaning in his 'verse because everyone always comes back somehow?

I really didn't like it. I thought it rendered the entire existence of the Fred character pretty much meaningless. I like that the possibility of her existence is open. It bothers me to think of a world in which the soul of a good person can be destroyed by evil. It strikes me as the ultimate triumph of evil over good and injustice over justice, and suggests that everything is pointless because the next life is as unjust as this one is.

See, I disagree. First of all, I found Fred's death particularly effective because she was really dead. The concept of death in the Buffyverse isn't very realistic when you have Cordelia up on her higher plane making magic breezes, and people being zapped back to Earth via W&H contracts. Fred was really gone, burned up, kaput. She wasn't in heaven like Tara or someone, she ceased to exist anymore, anywhere. To me, as a cynical agnostic, that is a far more realistic depiction of death and it struck a chord because of that.

I don't believe in heaven or the afterlife. I believe that what happens here and now is what matters. The show Torchwood agrees with me on this and, for all it's flaws, has some pretty interesting themes about life and death. Take this exchange where Gwen asks her recently-resurrected teammate Suzie if there is a heaven:

GWEN: So what's out there?

SUZIE: Nothing. Just nothing.

GWEN: But, but if there's nothing, what's the point of it all?

SUZIE: This is. Driving through the dark. All this stupid, tiny stuff. We're just animals, howling in the night, cos it's better than silence. I used to think about Torchwood, all those aliens, coming to Earth ... What the hell for? But it's just instinct. They come here cos there's life, that's all. Moths around a flame. Creatures clinging together in the cold.

You say that Fred's soul being destroyed made her meaningless as a person because she couldn't go to the afterlife? Rubbish. Look at how she influenced the world, and the people around her. It was the impact she left on her friends that saved the world in After the Fall. And now Illyria continues to fight in her name because she knows what her life was worth. That to is me is a far more realistic and positive legacy than living happily ever after with Wesley in some heaven.

I guess this comes down to your personal beliefs about souls and the afterlife. I enjoy that stuff as fiction, but I don't really believe it (not close-minded though - agnostic). Obviously a lot of people will disagree. I think that's why I like how it was handled in #17... it was vague enough that you could just believe whatever made you happy. (Sorry to get all serious and existential, btw. )

[Hallow Thorn]

I like what your saying Paul730, (but I do belive in the afterlife, real and fiction and that's were I think Fred is ) and I think it's true about Illyria fighting in Fred's name...

[Wyndam]

Feb 13, 2009 18:52:31 GMT -5 Paul said:

I think that's why I like how it was handled in #17... it was vague enough that you could just believe whatever made you happy. (Sorry to get all serious and existential, btw. )

I think, in the end, this is all that matters, which is why I am glad Brian left it open for interpretation. People can debate what really happened with Fred until they are blue in the face, but we will never know what happened to her, unless she is resurrected in future canon. I doubt we'll see that though.

Both sides have strong arguments (Dr. Sparrow saying her soul was destroyed vs. Dr. Sparrow, a lier and Illyria worshipper that wanted nothing more than for Illyria awaken and for Angel to stop trying to save Fred, saying her soul was destroyed), and then there is the fact that Fred was going to come back in Season 6, if it had happened.

For now though, no one is right when they say what happened to her, and I think that is pretty cool.

[AndrewCrossett]

"Moths around a flame" is not enough of a motivation to get up in the morning, IMO.

I'm not a Christian or an adherent of any religion, but I believe in an afterlife because I have to. Without it, I can't see life as anything other than a pointless sequence of pointless events. Why should I care about my "legacy" if, as far as I'm concerned, existence ends when my heart stops beating?

This isn't a subject I can meaningfully argue about, because I literally can't understand the opposing viewpoint -- my mind won't process the idea of there being a point to life if it doesn't lead to something else. I don't understand why life would have come into being in the first place if it leads nowhere. I guess it's just the way my mind is wired.

So I'll have to just say that, in a story-world where the afterlife *does* undeniably exist, I think Fred's fate was unjustifiably cruel even by Joss's own fairly sadistic standards, and I would like to see it reversed. Very much.

So I'm glad to see the note of hope introduced in this issue, even if it's never followed up on. Hope is better than nothing.

[patxshand]

Way I look at it, a soul can't be destroyed. Can't kill it. Isn't called an "immortal soul" for nothing.

I love that Brian brought up the fact that the only reason they think that about Fred is because Dr. Sparrow, an evil man, told them it was true. Sparrow's a liar.

Why?

'Cause warm breeze, every time.

[Enisy]

It's no secret that Joss agrees with Paul on the subject of the soul and the afterlife and the meaning to our existence (he doesn't believe in any of it), but that viewpoint has given me enormous grief the last few days... I have such trouble even processing it. As Robert Thurman put it:

"The now is like meditation. If you go into the now with an intact world picture that the essence of you is nothingness, because you have no former life, you have no future life, your mind is only your brain, and this consciousness is an illusion and thank God science has found that out... if you think that's what will happen to you at death, that your continuum of awareness will be nothing, forever, that means you have a picture that that's the essence at your heart right this minute. That's a deadly imprisoning virulent poison of a world-view from all the psychoanalysts for thousands of years."

So yeah... Fred is actually one of the least interesting Whedonverse characters, to me, but I don't get a kick out of this prospect of an end to her at all. Her soul has to be somewhere.

[balesthebloody]

This was a wonderful issue! The perfect way to wrap up the perfect series! I LOVED the Spike a George stuff! Angel and Spike seem to be at peace with one another, which is odd, but nice! Some people have said that it had a happy ending, I say not. Angel has lost his best friend, his humanity, Gunn is down for the count, people know who and what he is, and Los Angeles is dealing with "Post Hell Syndrome".

I feel that Fred is SOMEWHERE. Not really sure where, but she has to be somewhere. I really think she has moved on to the afterlife.

Or something else that I am considering is that she was absorbed by Illyria. This might explain a lot of her emotions and personality issues. Sure this would mean that Fred is gone, but could it be possible for Illyria to really become Fred and believe it is Fred? I think it is very possible! Even if she was absorbed by Illyria or her soul was really destroyed I think she will move on when Illyria dies.

[Hallow Thorn]

Off-topic:
Will Illyria die? from 'old age Fred' body? and can she have a baby? maybe she could give birth to a baby with Fred soul and that it is in fact Fred re-born and she remembers everything of being Fred... lol I also like that Fred can more on after Illyria dies...when ever that can be.

[henzINNIT]

I think Brian handled Fred very well with this. Now everyone can be happy, even if we still all disagree lol.

Fred is gone, imo, but I'm glad there's some hope for you who don't like that.