Angel: After The Fall - Issue 17

[Slayer489]

I LOVE the magazine style cover. That's the one I'll be getting. I haven't got this issue yet but hopefully will soon. Can't wait! It's hard avoiding spoilers.

[richie]

For ME Its just like Wesley said to Illirya
Whe she asked "Its anything there but grief?"

As He Said

THERE HOPE...

and i'm still hanging on this hope to see Fred & Wesley back.

but the thing is. they not coming back.

WHY?

the library memorial thing indicates that they giving an end to the characters...
they have a loose end for Fred's soul, i agree with that(thats where my hope lies), but i don't tihnk they gonna bring Fred back, but not Wesley.
Whats the reason?
And Wesley died from a natural Death(knife), so i think theres no way to bring hi back, no without hurting the universe...(why wesley can, but not Tara?)

The only way i see to bring wesley back, is through W&H.
but they dissapered right? hu, THE L.A branch. but i think that IF ANGEL or ILLIRYA want to bring him back, they could go to W&H main Building. the strongest... humn... look like a good think to do... maybe in season 8 uahuauahauhauauh

(since after the fall is over, do this mean that aftermath is season 7?

PS: see how i still got hope...
hehehe

[AndrewCrossett]

I think if Fred's soul is anywhere, it's inside of Illyria.

On page 7 of issue #16, there's a scene in which we see Ghost Wes walking up to, and into, Illyria's dead or disabled demon body. No explanation is given.

A few pages later, Wes is speaking to Spike:

Wes: "They need to return to the very last moment before all of this started. Exactly how it was. Exactly as we were."

Spike: "But you were..."

Wes: "Yes. But so was she."

And then Wes walks back toward Illyria's body again.

Spike obviously is observing that Wes will still be dead after the reset, since he died before it happened. And Wes adds that Fred won't be brought back either.

Fred died long before L.A. was sent to Hell, so it seems like it would be a little obvious for Wes to mention the reset wouldn't bring her back...unless...

Is it possible that Wes discovered Fred's soul had been released when Illyria died, but realizes that it will be trapped within her again when the timeline resets?

If that's the case, then Fred is still there, but she'll never be freed until Illyria dies or some way is found to separate her soul from Illyria's (which would possibly cause Illyria to go fully evil with Fred's influence removed from her).

[Enisy]

Feb 14, 2009 17:25:39 GMT -5 AndrewCrossett said:

I think if Fred's soul is anywhere, it's inside of Illyria.

Nuh-uh.

Non: She's timesharing with a human. Dig deep, try hard. Move that rubber tree plant.
Sadecki: There's nothing human about her. She wants it! She's trying to force it... but there's nothing left but - Illyria.
-- Spike: After the Fall, Issue #4

Wesley: Fred -
Illyria: I tried, Wesley. I tried to be.
Wesley: I know you did.
Illyria: I don't think... I don't think she's here.
-- Angel: After the Fall, Issue #14

[henzINNIT]

^ There were fragments of Fred's memories left at least, as seen in the show; but those quotes are pretty definitive.

[AndrewCrossett]

They prove Illyria doesn't *think* Fred's inside her, but we already knew that. If she thought differently she'd have said so.

[Enisy]

The Sadecki demon was specifically designed to prove that there's no Fred left in Illyria, just like the Judge was designed to prove that there's no humanity left in Angelus.

[AndrewCrossett]

It doesn't matter, really. I know perfectly well that Joss is never going to allow any sort of return for Fred. He never lets go once he gets his teeth into one of his Statements. Fred is nothing, forever.

This was only underlined by the "ray of hope" in #17, illustrating how people (Angel) will continue to stubbornly delude themselves that the universe is somehow biased toward "justice," when in fact it is not. I guess without that shared delusion, the whole "fight for good" outlook becomes pretty meaningless.

That was the point of the ending of "Not Fade Away," after all. Good and evil are equal forces. Neither will ever win. Only the fight itself matters.

But still...

Joss has told me a lot of stories over the past 12 years. The vast majority of them I've enjoyed. A few I was indifferent to. A handful I didn't care for.

The story of Fred's fate is the only one of them I can honestly say I regret having been told.

[Enisy]

I think there are hints in Angel: After the Fall (particularly issues #16 and #17) that Fred has passed on to some kind of afterlife, for anyone who wants to take them, so I'm not as bothered by her fate as I used to be. But yeah, it would be nice to get a clarification on that front (whether her soul is really still around) sometime.

[AndrewCrossett]

Feb 14, 2009 19:57:15 GMT -5 Enisy said:

I think there are hints in Angel: After the Fall (particularly issues #16 and #17) that Fred has passed on to some kind of afterlife, for anyone who wants to take them,

But don't those hints consist solely of "that's the way Angel would really like it to be?"

[Enisy]

Or Wesley, yeah -- but they're there. And it has to be noted that, similarly, Knox's testimony is the only thing in support of the opposite argument.

[AndrewCrossett]

Feb 14, 2009 20:04:55 GMT -5 Enisy said:

Or Wesley, yeah -- but they're there. And it has to be noted that, similarly, Knox's testimony is the only thing in support of the opposite argument.

The argument that she's been completely erased, you mean?

[Enisy]

Yep, that one.

[Hallow Thorn]

So is that the same with Vampires? is Spike/Dru/Harm's souls all in the Afterlife? (It seems like Darla has hers back...)

[alycat7]

I loved it! Every second of this issue was great. I'm glad I got to see Spike and Angel finally show some mutual respect for one another. But what's next for Angel? I can't think of anything else for him to do. I think he should finally be able to rest now, he deserves it.

[patxshand]

Oh, there's so so much more for Angel to do. The issue is pretty much about what comes next for him.

[magicegidius]

Thank you Brian...

[Malsad]

Feb 14, 2009 23:41:52 GMT -5 Hallow Thorn said:

So is that the same with Vampires? is Spike/Dru/Harm's souls all in the Afterlife? (It seems like Darla has hers back...)

she said she was in hell
and was only there to help him

[Hallow Thorn]

Who was in Hell? Darla? I can't remeber...


"Warm Breeze. Each And Every Time. She Hates When I'm Pessimistic." -I would have liked it if he said her name... or is it just to hard for him to do that if she isn't really there like in #12-13? ...

[Malsad]

Darla