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Post by Wyndam on Feb 15, 2009 18:00:38 GMT -5
"Warm Breeze. Each And Every Time. She Hates When I'm Pessimistic." -I would have liked it if he said her name... or is it just to hard for him to do that if she isn't really there like in #12-13? ... Brian did that so it would be left open to the reader to decide if it was really Cordelia, and that if Fred and Wes were together somewhere.
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Hallow Thorn
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Post by Hallow Thorn on Feb 15, 2009 20:18:37 GMT -5
Yeah, that's what I thought, but Angel could of still said 'Cordelia' and not 'She' and it could still be up to the reader to decide... I would like to know if Brian thinks it was her and if he thinks Fred and Wes could be together somewhere...
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patxshand
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Post by patxshand on Feb 15, 2009 21:45:49 GMT -5
How would it have been up to the reader if he specifically said "Cordelia." The way it was done was perfect, and the moment was way too about Wesley/Fred to make a direct Cordelia reference.
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Hallow Thorn
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Post by Hallow Thorn on Feb 15, 2009 22:42:15 GMT -5
She has done it before and we know that she is watching over him so it couldn't have just been confirmed that it was her… I guess they just wanted to show how alone he is / feels. (Maybe that’s why there was no Connor..?... lol I am not the best person to debate about her. ) Anyway I feel like the moment was perfect with The “Warm Breeze” and talking about all the people he has lost and that they might (and he hopes) they could still together ... I think having ‘Cordy’ present is a good example of how peaceful and promising the afterlife (Well, the kind that she is existing in) could be for all… Who said Darla was in Hell? last time we saw her (not in a flashback) she was bought to Connor by TPTB... they never said she was in Hell...
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richie
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Post by richie on Feb 16, 2009 14:22:04 GMT -5
i think darla said she was in hell someday... but i think, when she talk with connor, that shes in a better place. cause, for me, she had redeption killing herslef to give life to connor.
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deathquaker
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Post by deathquaker on Feb 17, 2009 9:22:24 GMT -5
I think if Fred's soul is anywhere, it's inside of Illyria. Nuh-uh. Non: She's timesharing with a human. Dig deep, try hard. Move that rubber tree plant. Sadecki: There's nothing human about her. She wants it! She's trying to force it... but there's nothing left but - Illyria. -- Spike: After the Fall, Issue #4 Wesley: Fred - Illyria: I tried, Wesley. I tried to be. Wesley: I know you did. Illyria: I don't think... I don't think she's here. -- Angel: After the Fall, Issue #14 Late coming in on this convo as usual... but hope its ok to weigh in. Can I agree with both of you? Physics tells us nothing can be created or destroyed, only transformed. Beyond faith, existence tells me there is nothing that can actually become nothing. Even if Sparrow was being 100% honest with Wesley and Gunn, he said, "Fred was consumed by the fires of resurrection." Wood gets consumed by fire. Part of the wood becomes heat and light, part of the wood becomes ash. It doesn't go away, it just turns into something different. We eat food; we absorb its nutrients and so in a way part of it becomes us; it becomes caloric energy for us to use in daily activity, and yeah, even some of it becomes other forms of matter we expel from our body later (where it further breaks down and becomes energy and matter to be consumed by other things). I think Illyria consumed Fred and in some way, merged with her essence. I do NOT think "Fred is alive." Fred is not Fred anymore. That's why Illyria can't "find Fred"--because she's transformed beyond recognition. But the irony is that whatever is left of her is right there. What was Fred now fuels Illyria. That's why Illyria's suddenly so open to the human condition, which would otherwise be likely quite impossible for a primordial demon to experience. Her demonic essence has consumed a human soul, and is now influenced by what she's "eaten" as it were. Fred doesn't quite get a rest or a happy ending, but what she's been merged into has rendered a horrible monster into a powerful creature with depth and understanding on an increasingly human level. Just think, if Illyria had been reborn into... oh, Knox or some other Wolfram and Hart employee... the world would probably have been easily destroyed.
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Post by Wyndam on Feb 17, 2009 9:36:10 GMT -5
Late coming in on this convo as usual... but hope its ok to weigh in. Can I agree with both of you? Physics tells us nothing can be created or destroyed, only transformed. Beyond faith, existence tells me there is nothing that can actually become nothing. Even if Sparrow was being 100% honest with Wesley and Gunn, he said, "Fred was consumed by the fires of resurrection." Wood gets consumed by fire. Part of the wood becomes heat and light, part of the wood becomes ash. It doesn't go away, it just turns into something different. We eat food; we absorb its nutrients and so in a way part of it becomes us; it becomes caloric energy for us to use in daily activity, and yeah, even some of it becomes other forms of matter we expel from our body later (where it further breaks down and becomes energy and matter to be consumed by other things). I think Illyria consumed Fred and in some way, merged with her essence. I do NOT think "Fred is alive." Fred is not Fred anymore. That's why Illyria can't "find Fred"--because she's transformed beyond recognition. But the irony is that whatever is left of her is right there. What was Fred now fuels Illyria. That's why Illyria's suddenly so open to the human condition, which would otherwise be likely quite impossible for a primordial demon to experience. Her demonic essence has consumed a human soul, and is now influenced by what she's "eaten" as it were. Fred doesn't quite get a rest or a happy ending, but what she's been merged into has rendered a horrible monster into a powerful creature with depth and understanding on an increasingly human level. Just think, if Illyria had been reborn into... oh, Knox or some other Wolfram and Hart employee... the world would probably have been easily destroyed. That is a really awesome insight into what happened, and one I hadn't really thought of before, especially when you think about what could have happened if Fred hadn't been the one Illyria infected. Great post! +Karma!
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Post by kaleidoscope on Feb 17, 2009 10:09:14 GMT -5
Fred doesn't quite get a rest or a happy ending, but what she's been merged into has rendered a horrible monster into a powerful creature with depth and understanding on an increasingly human level. Just think, if Illyria had been reborn into... oh, Knox or some other Wolfram and Hart employee... the world would probably have been easily destroyed. It's an interesting theory. I'd never have thought of using physics to think about the nature of Fred's death, but it's a very Fred-like way of looking at it. I can quite believe that all that Fred once was is now influencing Illyria. Without Fred, her memories and the memories of others, what would Illyira be ? You are right, the world would probably be destroyed.
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Post by henzINNIT on Feb 17, 2009 10:10:47 GMT -5
Definately a reasonable interpretation. I like it a lot. Fragments of Fred's memories as well her peer's projected memories have clearly shaped Illyria into who she is. The compassion and loving nature of Fred may well have influenced Illyria once she consumed her. Illyria really wanted to be Fred in ATF, when it's entirely possible that it's the Fred in her that led to that. Very nice.
A seamless theory that Fred would have been proud of lol
+ Karma
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Post by AndrewCrossett on Feb 17, 2009 11:23:08 GMT -5
So, according to this theory Fred still exists as part of Illyria, but you couldn't separate them now any more than you could separate or identify the "sperm parts" from the "ovum parts" of a newborn baby. Fred's spirit, memories and emotions are there within Illyria, so completely mixed with her that even she can't tell where she ends and Fred starts.
We could therefore see Human!Illyria as a completely new person born from Fred and the original OldOne!Illyria.
That's a good theory... much easier to take than the "she was erased from existence" line.
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El Diablo Robotico
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Post by El Diablo Robotico on Feb 17, 2009 14:58:06 GMT -5
So Angel was obviously very touched that the library decided to name a wing after Fred and Wes. Do you think that sentiment faded at all when he showed up and saw that they'd spelled Wes's name wrong? Good issue. I especially liked the scene in the hospital--reminded me a lot of the one between Angel and Spike at the end of "Damage", which is one of my favorite moments in the entire series. Have you ever taken a moment to think about how different the comments are here at SA about each new issue of S8 compared to AtF? S8, for every post saying how great it was, you get one ripping it and saying how much they don't like where the story's going. "The submarine was lame", "I didn't care about Harmony or Soledad", "The tree-people were the stupidest thing ever", "Buffy never should've slept with a girl", "Too many old characters returning", etc., etc., etc. Come in here, tho, and it's just one long praise-a-thon each month, with barely a negative word to be found. Sorry, but I don't think the quality of the two series is that widely separated. There's been plenty of good stuff in S8, and plenty of not-so-good, and the same goes for AtF. It's been really cool having the guy who's actually writing the series hanging out here on a regular basis, but unfortunately I think it also tends to stifle the discussion, 'cause nobody wants to criticize anything. As nice as it was to have a happy ending for once, the ending was a bit too contrived for my taste. 15 issues of all these horrible things happening, most of the cast being killed off, and then in the final 2 issues you get to hit the 'RESET' button, and everything's all better--all the dead characters come back to life, and the bad guys (W&H) have magically gone 'poof', into thin air. Not gonna get dragged into another canon debate, but that's the kind of thing you'd expect in a non-canon story, where nothing major can ever happen, or if it does, it has to be un-done and everything restored to status quo by the end of the story. This is a little different, with everyone retaining their memories and Angel & co. becoming minor celebrities, but I guess I would've liked a more permanent price to have been paid in pain&blood on the way to the finish line. The positives I take away from AtF are the great story, the snappy dialogue, the awesome development of the Angel/Connor relationship, and most of all, Alex Garner's covers (I think he's even better than Jo Chen!). The one negative that'll stick with me is how poorly it was edited, and how much better it could've been. Spelling mistakes. Plot points and bits of dialogue that were confusing and hard-to-follow at times. Certain idiosyncrasies in the writing that became noticeable over time and tended to not only stick out, but also find their way into the dialogue of multiple characters, making them sound alike. That's all stuff that you have to lay on the editor, since as the writer you're too close to the work to see the forest for the trees at times, and depend on someone to look at it with fresh eyes and point out those sorts of things so they can be corrected. And of course, there was the horrible editorial decision regarding the art team--first to move the original team to "Spike", but then also who they replaced them with (thinking mainly of the colorist in #9 and #10 who didn't seem to have anything on his palette but brown :unsure: ). Overall, great job by Brian Lynch, Alex Garner, Franco Urru, Stephen Mooney, and of course, Joss. I wasn't as blown away by this series as a lot of other people, apparently, but I did enjoy it, and am looking forward to reading it again...
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patxshand
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Post by patxshand on Feb 17, 2009 15:25:50 GMT -5
It's not that we don't want to criticize anything. I criticized Issue #9. It's just that a lot of us can't really find any faults with the majority of the issues.
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Post by Emmie on Feb 17, 2009 15:32:10 GMT -5
Have you ever taken a moment to think about how different the comments are here at SA about each new issue of S8 compared to AtF? S8, for every post saying how great it was, you get one ripping it and saying how much they don't like where the story's going. "The submarine was lame", "I didn't care about Harmony or Soledad", "The tree-people were the stupidest thing ever", "Buffy never should've slept with a girl", "Too many old characters returning", etc., etc., etc. Come in here, tho, and it's just one long praise-a-thon each month, with barely a negative word to be found. Sorry, but I don't think the quality of the two series is that widely separated. There's been plenty of good stuff in S8, and plenty of not-so-good, and the same goes for AtF. It's been really cool having the guy who's actually writing the series hanging out here on a regular basis, but unfortunately I think it also tends to stifle the discussion, 'cause nobody wants to criticize anything. As nice as it was to have a happy ending for once, the ending was a bit too contrived for my taste. 15 issues of all these horrible things happening, most of the cast being killed off, and then in the final 2 issues you get to hit the 'RESET' button, and everything's all better--all the dead characters come back to life, and the bad guys (W&H) have magically gone 'poof', into thin air. Not gonna get dragged into another canon debate, but that's the kind of thing you'd expect in a non-canon story, where nothing major can ever happen, or if it does, it has to be un-done and everything restored to status quo by the end of the story. This is a little different, with everyone retaining their memories and Angel & co. becoming minor celebrities, but I guess I would've liked a more permanent price to have been paid in pain&blood on the way to the finish line. The positives I take away from AtF are the great story, the snappy dialogue, the awesome development of the Angel/Connor relationship, and most of all, Alex Garner's covers (I think he's even better than Jo Chen!). The one negative that'll stick with me is how poorly it was edited, and how much better it could've been. Spelling mistakes. Plot points and bits of dialogue that were confusing and hard-to-follow at times. Certain idiosyncrasies in the writing that became noticeable over time and tended to not only stick out, but also find their way into the dialogue of multiple characters, making them sound alike. That's all stuff that you have to lay on the editor, since as the writer you're too close to the work to see the forest for the trees at times, and depend on someone to look at it with fresh eyes and point out those sorts of things so they can be corrected. And of course, there was the horrible editorial decision regarding the art team--first to move the original team to "Spike", but then also who they replaced them with (thinking mainly of the colorist in #9 and #10 who didn't seem to have anything on his palette but brown ). *karma for this* I'll admit I've been reluctant to criticize the series because fans of it seem a bit rampant about defending it and I'm also sensitive to the writer reading this here. I appreciate your perspective on this, El Diablo and I fully agree with you. There's a few things I'd critique now that the series has concluded: - Lack of consistent artistic identity. There was a strong opening in the beginning, but this was largely confused by the parade of different artists during First Night and the series didn't manage to recover til Issue 15 with the new partnership of Fabio Mantovani and Franco Urru. The most egregious art flub I call the reign of brown and the rushed issue. - A confusing, non-chronological story structure that doesn't demand it be read in the original way it was published. You should read Spike: AtF after First Night then go back to AtF if it's your first time through, but if it's a reread you should read First Night first, then S:AtF then AtF...or maybe not... or maybe I have no idea and that's what really bothers me. Stories were added in a fly-by-the-seat-of-IDW's-pants way and this is a very different feel from the two TV series where plot developments were staged *years* in advance. Countdown to 5-3-0 and Joyce's death foreshadowed and planned in Joss' mind in S3. Darla being resurrected and Connor's birth. - Character arcs that were sidetracked, ignored or simply forgotten. Nina was largely forgotten from Issue 5 onwards until she finally got a thoughtful scene in #17, Lorne's issues with having to murder Lindsey are never explored and his beef with Angel is whitewashed over, Wes had no growth here nor deep character exploration. On this last instance I find it chillingly poetic (and I imagine largely unintended) that Wes was a ghost in AtF because it aptly fit his contribution and involvement in the story - a creature unchanging and merely waiting to move on. Yet I'd rather he'd never been brought back if he was only there to serve as Angel's big brain serviceable for giving memories to Illyria and realizing that W&H would do anything to save Angel, even turn back hell. And what about the payoff for the line "he's the key to it all. he's the reason we'll win"? That's the kind of thing I expect to come back to and it's what watching/reading the verse has taught me, but it never happened. Bringing Wesley back from the dead and lessening the power of his exit in NFA means that his return has got to count and I was left largely disappointed. Wes' return inspires no deep thoughts on his character but only offers some heartwarmingly sentimental scenes and another final goodbye - both of which I found nice but wholly unnecessary and gratuitous in light of his epic exit in NFA. I could keep going on here on the subject of Wes, but it would be oh so long. Except dangit I can't stop. How utterly wasteful to bring back a character who had the most incredible long-term character of any in the 'verse (most fans agree and even Joss said this recently on Whedonesque) only to have his character literally stunted during After the Fall. I'm sorry to say that AtF didn't add to the already awesome character arc of Wesley, but merely detracted imo. - W&H as the ultimate, ephemeral threat that can never be truly defeated according to Angel in NFA turns out to be routed quite definitively in AtF (or so the mysterious disappearance goes...). What's more, I found them talking directly through their emissaries in certain issues to be largely underwhelming. Edmund Burke espouses that the sublime is truly awe-inspiring based on it's mystery and goes on to show that how effective this method is as Milton describes the Devil as being without definite form or shape but wholly terrifying. The unknown is more scary and I found the dialogue of W&H in the last few issues diminished the danger and awesome terror of the mystery that is W&H. It reduced W&H to the comical loan shark, Bro'os in tonality and I didn't like it. Even the direct representatives we'd seen of W&H earlier didn't negate their terrifying tone - it contradicted the feeling given by the Conduit in the tv series and I was largely underwhelmed. If anything could have actually scared me during their jaunt to Hell-A, it would have been W&H speaking directly through its emissaries. But it became a joke that ended in a speech where the ever-cagey, refuses to talk W&H reveals exactly how Angel can undo the trip to Hell-A in a stupid Bond villain fashion. Come on! Not only is W&H evil, but their lawyers. They are the epitome of never saying too much or revealing your hand. I found it unbelievable that it would happen then. Now there are many things that were done amazingly well in After the Fall, but those are just a few of my criticisms. I think it's fair to share them as I've mostly been praising the series for its run.
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Post by Wyndam on Feb 17, 2009 16:02:40 GMT -5
I more or less agree with Pat, there's just nothing I could really critique about a majority of the series.
As for AtF as a whole, my only problems were with a few First Night stories (Spike's, Gwen's, Civilian's stories just weren't that interesting), a few Runge panels in #9 and #10, and then 2-3 panels of dialogue after Angel destroyed the Lord's. That's it really for me.
As for the overall story, not a single complaint.
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Post by Whedon Fan on Feb 17, 2009 16:03:07 GMT -5
I gave ATF a big bashing at the start. I've not held beack because Brian may come across the post and read it I merley re-phrased a few words to suit what I wanted to say better. I think Brian would prefer us to be honest, wouldn't he? I've posted these in numerous seperate poists already through ATF's run but I'll re-post them here too. My main 'problems' with ATF are: The art felt rushed at times, didn't like that there was different artists for certain issues. This made me appreciate Geroges more over at season eight though A few too many jokes are added into serious scenes that are just not needed at the time. Although when put in the right place made for good reading! Nina either needed a bigger arc or should have just been left out. She was not needed at all. Nice that she had a little page time in issue 17 but that could've went to anyone I'll admit I'm not a fan of Betta George. I did name my fish after him though and think he is a fun, nice charatcer. Just not meant for ATF. Dragon was pretty meh-ish at first but I got used to it. I like that it went to Groo in the end Not a fan of the 'Civilians' arc in First Night. Other than those IMO small things I listed, the story over all was pretty strong...minus the 'civilians' arc. Loved Spike, Connor and Angel. Lornes story could have been smoothed out a bit more from when we last saw him in NFA to when we see him all cheary in ATF. I do love the series and think Brian did a great job. Still stand by that issues 15 and 16 are two of the strongest Buffy verse comics I have read. Great story, nice character development but a few too many nit picks in certain issues make them feel a little off.
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Post by Emmie on Feb 17, 2009 16:08:39 GMT -5
The art felt rushed at times, didn't like that there was different artists for certain issues. This made me appreciate Geroges more over at season eight though A few too many jokes are added into serious scenes that are just not needed at the time. Although when put in the right place made for good reading! Nina either needed a bigger arc or should have just been left out. She was not needed at all. Nice that she had a little page time in issue 17 but that could've went to anyone I agree with these the most, especially the critique about too many jokes added into serious scenes that aren't needed at the time. I fully agree that Nina was superfluous to the story and while her scene in #17 was nice, it felt like too little, too late. I think my feelings on the art at times are already known.
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Hallow Thorn
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Post by Hallow Thorn on Feb 17, 2009 16:15:20 GMT -5
From what I have read I wish that most of the art could have been like Connor and Kate's 'First Night' and Issue #12-#13.... but I still really like what we got... and I love the Fred theory...
Can I put a few of my 'problems' in ?
A bit too much Spike... (+ he had his own spin-off..) 'Civilians' and 'Lorne' arc And I would have like more old friends from the show back... But thats it. best comics series in the world.
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Post by hitnrun017 on Feb 17, 2009 16:22:56 GMT -5
My only major-ish complaint about the series was the pacing of some of the final issues. Big events kept happening and happening and yet everything and everyone just kept moving forward a little too fast for my liking. I bet some people like that sort of flow, but I think the story just flew by. It probably could have been a lot tighter if there had been just a couple more issues. Other than that, really enjoyed everything.
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Post by Joe on Feb 17, 2009 16:44:26 GMT -5
And I would have like more old friends from the show back... What other friends could you possibly want back? Lol, almost everyone from all seasons of the show is in ATF. They had too big of a cast. Groo, and Nina weren't needed at all, and any character could've took Lorne's place in what he did for the plot.
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Hallow Thorn
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Post by Hallow Thorn on Feb 17, 2009 16:49:32 GMT -5
And I would have like more old friends from the show back... What other friends could you possibly want back? Lol, almost everyone from all seasons of the show is in ATF. They had too big of a cast. Groo, and Nina weren't needed at all, and any character could've took Lorne's place in what he did for the plot. I really just wanted Anne back, I have always liked her ever since Buffy season 2...
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