Angel: After The Fall - Issue 17

[Emmie]

Sigh.



...but that does sound like a cool sig idea, deathquaker. You should think of a cool concept and maybe have CowboyGuy/Phil make you a banner with those images put together.

[patxshand]

Feb 18, 2009 22:01:02 GMT -5 Emmie said:

Sigh.

Schwa?

[rogue11]

Just read the issue, not so bad.
Looks like Angel Investigations is coming back in business?
To me, it just seems like after the fall was one big "what if" story because now you've got a continuation that could have happend right at the begining of the series without the whole hell dimension and all the demons/vampires/werewolves going out of whack.
Not that that wasn't neat, but i'm looking forward to seeing characters like Illyria and Gunn behaving more in character, like how they were back in season 5.
At first glance I thought Nina was Kate, but its cool that they keep her around, does this mean we'll see her in full werewolf form sometime instead of just half and half?
I hope they do try to restart the whole small group storyline. The big group that existed around issue 5 was cool, it was like Joss Whedon's own Angelverse version of the X-men.
But the days when it was just Angel and like three or four other people was the best!
We already have an army's worth of characters in Buffy season 8, lets get back to the intimate setting of a smaller group in Angel Aftermath!!!

[Hallow Thorn]

True rogue11, but what's the point without Cordy/Wes/Fred? (Well, Cordy is still around and might be back one more time (or more) and we have Illyria and that's the next best thing to Fred and I don't even know if Gunn is going to be around ...

[henzINNIT]

Feb 19, 2009 1:02:28 GMT -5 Hallow Thorn said:

True rogue11, but what's the point without Cordy/Wes/Fred? ...

They've had their time. Cordy and Fred's deaths were up there with the best stories each character had in my opnion. By the time their deaths came around, Fred had done little of interest for well over a year, and Cordy had done nothing but suck. Like you said, there's some Fred left in Illyria, and I think that's the most interesting way to keep that character "alive", same with Cordy's presence above. As for Wes, hasn't he suffered for long enough? Poor guy. I'm kinda glad he may finally get some rest, as much as I love the character.

[balesthebloody]

Feb 18, 2009 23:37:18 GMT -5 rogue11 said:

Just read the issue, not so bad.
Looks like Angel Investigations is coming back in business?
To me, it just seems like after the fall was one big "what if" story because now you've got a continuation that could have happend right at the begining of the series without the whole hell dimension and all the demons/vampires/werewolves going out of whack.
Not that that wasn't neat, but i'm looking forward to seeing characters like Illyria and Gunn behaving more in character, like how they were back in season 5.
At first glance I thought Nina was Kate, but its cool that they keep her around, does this mean we'll see her in full werewolf form sometime instead of just half and half?
I hope they do try to restart the whole small group storyline. The big group that existed around issue 5 was cool, it was like Joss Whedon's own Angelverse version of the X-men.
But the days when it was just Angel and like three or four other people was the best!
We already have an army's worth of characters in Buffy season 8, lets get back to the intimate setting of a smaller group in Angel Aftermath!!!

After the Fall was so much more than a "what if" story. Not everything is the way it was back at the end of Season 5. W&H is gone, that and all of L.A. knowing about the supernatural, are two of the biggest changes to come out of the series. Sure we haven't seen the full effect of it but I am guessing that is what Aftermath is for, or at least I hope that it is addressed in more detail. Plus Angel has to deal with knowing that he was human at one time. That must weigh so heavy on his heart.

[Whedon Fan]

Yeah I don't get the complaints of "Ah big reset". It was not a reset. From After The Fall the charatcers take back with them:

1) LA now knows about Angel and the supernatural side of things
2) Wolfram and Hart (LA Branch) is gone
3) Angel was human, big step from being human to a vampire again
4) Connor, Gwen, Groo, etc...now need to deal with the fact that they died and came back
5) Gunn needs to deal and learn to live with what he's done and what he was
6) Gwen's betrayl how will she be around Connor and how will he feel around her?
7) Illyria has more of Fred inside of her and feels what she would have felt
8) Angel learnt to deal with what he did in the past a little. He's obvioulsy still now "over it" because Angel loves to brood but he's dealing with it all a bit better

That's all I can think of off the top of my head right now.

ALSO: 1000 Posts!! Wooooo

[deathquaker]

I agree with the sentiment that the cast should be kept small. After the Fall was fun, but was marred by a too-big cast to keep track of at times (and lesser characters, like Nina, suffered--if you can't give the supporting cast stuff to do, don't include them and focus on the main characters).

WhedonFan, you're right, what happened wasn't quite a reset, but I personally don't like it much because we've already had a history rewrite, and because I feel somehow like Angel cheated his way out of half the consequences of the events in hell, rather than deal with the tragedy that happened there in some other more head-on way. (What could he have done instead? I honestly don't know. The whole story would probably have to be restructured to have a different outcome, and that is of course silly to ask for at this point.)

BUT on the other hand, since everyone DOES remember what happened, you are dead on that there probably are going to be some interesting events that carry on from here regardless. It isn't a clean reboot, for sure.

[narflet]

Feb 18, 2009 13:54:31 GMT -5 Brian Lynch said:

Well said, and I just wanna say "Deathquaker" is a bad-ass name. If we ever do THE FLAMING SWORD OF GROOSALUGG, he's hanging with Deathquaker, for sure.

Yeah, deathquaker is an interesting name, I was just thinking that myself. To be a bit OT, what's the meaning behind? I only ask because I am a Quaker so it's...interesting!

[El Diablo Robotico]

Feb 17, 2009 15:32:10 GMT -5 Emmie said:

And what about the payoff for the line "he's the key to it all. he's the reason we'll win"? That's the kind of thing I expect to come back to and it's what watching/reading the verse has taught me, but it never happened.

You noticed that, too, huh? Yeah, it was like the "Buffy won't choose you" thing from CwDP all over again--that is, a line that seems to tease a major upcoming plot twist, and then there's never any payoff for it.

And I still wish I knew who the very opening line of the series ("It all started with a girl") was referring to. Fred? Cordy? The fourth-floor cafeteria lady?

[Hallow Thorn]

It was Fred... I think Cordy would have been a lot better but it's not like Wolfram and Hart 'killed' her (they didn't make her better, but she ascended and now works with TPTB ) they killed Fred... But it was all of their dumbass mistake for getting involved with them!

[Whedon Fan]

Yeah Angel was talking about Fred. I thought that was pretty clear. But yeah the "Wesley is the reason we'll win" thing is a bit of a loose end. Maybe they just thought then could manipulate Wes into doing whatever they wanted or that Wes would somehow betray Angel to see Fred again.

[deathquaker]

Feb 20, 2009 2:25:29 GMT -5 Hallow Thorn said:

But it was all of their dumbass mistake for getting involved with them!

They all got on board with it (and I think Fred was the most reluctant, ironically), but wasn't it really particularly Angel's "dumbass" mistake---IIRC he made the deal with W&H so they would cast the memory spell to give Connor a real life.

I think that's it's why it's particularly "it started with a girl" re: Fred -- he knows he was ultimately responsible for her death, because if he hadn't talked the gang into joining W&H, Fred would probably still be alive.

(OTOH, perhaps then Illyria would have been reborn into a different body...)

narfel, I answered you via PM, so Emmie won't have to sigh again.

[Wyndam]

Feb 20, 2009 2:20:25 GMT -5 El Diablo Robotico said:

Feb 17, 2009 15:32:10 GMT -5 Emmie said:

And what about the payoff for the line "he's the key to it all. he's the reason we'll win"? That's the kind of thing I expect to come back to and it's what watching/reading the verse has taught me, but it never happened.

You noticed that, too, huh? Yeah, it was like the "Buffy won't choose you" thing from CwDP all over again--that is, a line that seems to tease a major upcoming plot twist, and then there's never any payoff for it.

And I still wish I knew who the very opening line of the series ("It all started with a girl") was referring to. Fred? Cordy? The fourth-floor cafeteria lady?

W&H needed Angel to believe that Angel was going to be the fall of man and be on their side when the Apocalypse hit, and the best way to do that was to get his most trusted friend to relay that information. That is why Wesley was their key. Angel never would have believed them if they straight up told him he was going to be evil in the Apocalypse.

And the line from the beginning was referring to Fred. Her death started the tailspin that led to L.A. getting sent to Hell.

[patxshand]

Feb 20, 2009 2:20:25 GMT -5 El Diablo Robotico said:

And I still wish I knew who the very opening line of the series ("It all started with a girl") was referring to. Fred? Cordy? The fourth-floor cafeteria lady?

Fred. Wolfram & Hart had nothing to do with Cordy's death.

[henzINNIT]

Wolfram + Hart had nothing to do with Fred's death either.

[Emmie]

Feb 20, 2009 8:37:25 GMT -5 deathquaker said:

narfel, I answered you via PM, so Emmie won't have to sigh again.

Aw, no need to take it to PM's. I retract my sigh if it made you feel discouraged about posting thoughts. It wasn't even direct at you.

[Wyndam]

Feb 20, 2009 12:11:44 GMT -5 henzINNIT said:

Wolfram + Hart had nothing to do with Fred's death either.

They certainly played a part in her death. Knox and Dr. Sparrow were both connected to W&H, and Fred never would have died in the first place if they had never joined W&H. Gunn wouldn't have gotten his legal upgrades and signed the customs papers to let the sarcophagus into the labs.

[El Diablo Robotico]

Feb 19, 2009 19:16:34 GMT -5 Whedon Fan said:

1) LA now knows about Angel and the supernatural side of things

That's really the only major development to come out of this series that holds much interest for me, going forward. I want to see how the people of LA reconcile their memories of HellLA with the new developments of S8--vampires being all "the cool new thing"...

2) Wolfram and Hart (LA Branch) is gone

I agree with Emmie in the fact that this actually really bothers me. One of the major points of the end of S5 was that W&H and the Senior Partners couldn't be defeated--they weren't there to be beaten, they were there to be fought. To have them then beaten so easily seems to completely fly in the face of that.

But you mentioned the LA Branch, and right now, that's what I'm hoping turns out to be the case: that it was just the LA Branch. Heck, maybe they weren't even really "defeated"--maybe they just chose to build their California offices in another city. San Francisco or San Diego...

3) Angel was human, big step from being human to a vampire again

That was already done in S1. He spent a day as a human, and then retained his memory of it. The change back to being a vampire wasn't played up as a big deal in the episodes that followed it, and so I don't expect it to be much of a storyline in future issues, either. If it is, then that's a bit of an inconsistency.

4) Connor, Gwen, Groo, etc...now need to deal with the fact that they died and came back

Not sure there's really much of a story there, to be honest. I think Connor's "I'm not dead, so that's cool" pretty much covered it, and was meant to stand for all three characters.

5) Gunn needs to deal and learn to live with what he's done and what he was

Except that by the well-established rules of the Buffyverse, he didn't do any of that. He died, and a demon took over his body, complete with his memories and personality, but the human Charles Gunn was no more responsible for any of vamp-Gunn's deeds than Groo or Spider was.

Now, of course, realistically it's pretty safe to assume that of course Gunn will feel responsible. My only concern is, we've already seen him lying in a hospital bed, wracked with guilt ("Shells", "Underneath"), so what's going to be different about this time? I think that's why that scene at the end of #17 worked so well--with Gunn in a coma and unable to answer back, it kept it from just being a re-hash of the scene from the beginning of "Underneath".

6) Gwen's betrayl how will she be around Connor and how will he feel around her?

I like Gwen, but I'm not sure I really care about that particular subplot. One of the problems with AtF was that the cast was really far too big for just a 17-issue story, and Gwen was one of the characters who really should've been left out completely in order to better focus on the main characters...

7) Illyria has more of Fred inside of her and feels what she would have felt

True.

8) Angel learnt to deal with what he did in the past a little. He's obvioulsy still now "over it" because Angel loves to brood but he's dealing with it all a bit better

Not sure I get what you're saying here. Can you explain a little more?

Basically, I agree with deathquaker's phrase about it not being a "clean re-boot", but it was a re-boot nonetheless, and I can't help feeling that it was a bit of a cop-out. None of the things you mentioned are really big enough payoffs for the end of a series. I hate it when characters die, but at least when they do, you feel like the victory at the end of the season has truly been earned. This one, it feels like everyone pretty much got off scot-free, and that bothers me, because NFA was such a perfect note for the series to go out on. If you're gonna open that back up again, the continuation really needs to be epic and have a similar level of consequences at the end. For 15 issues it really was pretty close to epic, but then calling a do-over with 2 issues to go just really spoiled that, I thought...

[AndrewCrossett]

Feb 20, 2009 14:24:30 GMT -5 El Diablo Robotico said:

Feb 19, 2009 19:16:34 GMT -5 Whedon Fan said:

1) LA now knows about Angel and the supernatural side of things

That's really the only major development to come out of this series that holds much interest for me, going forward. I want to see how the people of LA reconcile their memories of HellLA with the new developments of S8--vampires being all "the cool new thing"...

Which is something that's going to be very, very difficult to reconcile plausibly, IMO. It was hard enough for me to swallow even without taking the events of AtF into account. I really hope Joss knows where he's going with that.

Feb 20, 2009 14:24:30 GMT -5 El Diablo Robotico said:

I agree with Emmie in the fact that this actually really bothers me. One of the major points of the end of S5 was that W&H and the Senior Partners couldn't be defeated--they weren't there to be beaten, they were there to be fought. To have them then beaten so easily seems to completely fly in the face of that.

I think the point was that evil couldn't be defeated. W&H may be a powerful force of evil, but they can (and I think, will) be defeated. Not much fun in a story where the good guys can never beat the bad guys.

And yes, I'd guess it's just the LA Branch that's gone. It was just to illustrate that Angel & Co. had dealt W&H a severe, perhaps unprecedented blow. They actually hurt them rather than simply inconveniencing them, as they had before. An important morale booster, I'd think... especially for Gunn, who may find some comfort in the fact that it wouldn't have happened without him.