Angel: After The Fall - Issue 17

[henzINNIT]

I must admit I didn't like that Urru moved over to Spike: ATF.It felt a lot like A:ATF took second place during that time, but at the same time I appreciate that a LOT of people bitched about Urru's art at the beginning. I find it funny that by the time Urru returned to A:ATF everyone had nothing but praise for the guy.
I have to say that I Runge's and Mooney's style a lot and in many ways appreciate the diversity in the art. If only they were used for accompanying pieces instead of breaking the art continuity.

[Nina]

Could it be that the people who love ATF are a bit overprotecting of it? There are only 3 boards I know of that are positive about ATF (also one where Brian doesn't post). There is a lot of ATF bashing around or it's stuck in the big canon debate. (even when it's very clear that it is canon.) Not only ATF but also Ats was always the second in row, people who refuse to see Ats as canon. etc. It's something I see a lot on boards, Ats fans (incl. me are always very protective of the series because it's often forgotten and bashed.

Every series has negative points, also ATF. But something should really bother me before I start posting about it. I prefer to write about the positive things and ignore the things that I disliked because it's easier to enjoy a series when I do that. But yes, there are also enough things that I was not very happy with (the cast was too big, a bit less action and bit more development, it took a while before I really started to like the art, I didn't like where the first night issues were placed etc). But in the end the good outweights the bad and I enjoyed ATF a lot. The last 3 issues were an absolte pleasure to read and just like with everything ... a good ending makes me forgive the flaws of the beginning (the same for BtVS season 2).

[patxshand]

Some of those points I agree with, the vast majority I don't. Plot points are always, in any story since story-telling, as the story develops. Especially in Joss's world. Very few things are planned for long-term arcs in any of Joss's work, and most just comes because Joss is fantastic at building great stories on what he's already developed. The only season that was really paid off with long-term planning is the fifth season, as Emmie already mentioned. Most of the major plot points weren't planned seasons in advance, but were planned very roughly in advance at the start of the season. Joss would say "we have to hit this, this, and this, but have fun inbetween." Same exact thing for "After the Fall."

What I do agree with is that the Spike and Lorne "First Night" tales were weak, and that #9 and #10 were a bit rushed in the art department, and there was a page in #9 that really threw me off (the "Angel the vampire slayer!" bit). Given the time, Runge could have made those as beautiful as his WESLEY tale, because we know he's a great artist. But they had to be out quickly, so that was impossible. That is pretty much the extent of the problems I had with "After the Fall."

I adore both series, but I just find "After the Fall" more consistent. While there are a few weaker spots sprinkled throughout the series (all of them mentioned in the paragraph above), I never really found there to be any real trouble with the pacing or the stories the way "Buffy: Season Eight" has had of late. Joss Whedon, due to understandable time constraints, followed up the utterly fantastic #16 with two pretty weak (relatively, of course) issues. He bounced back with a powerful conclusion in #19, but that was unfortunately followed by #20 and #21, the two weakest issues in the entire series after #5. The "Angel" title hasn't gone on as long as Buffy, so there is definitely a possibility that it will slow down or be in a rut for a few issues the way Buffy has been, and when that happens, I will definitely call it the way I did the "Spike" tale and Angel #9. But honestly, I've just found "After the Fall" to be one of the most well-told, astounding tales I've ever read.

[Paul]

Hey, I started a thread/poll to review AtF as a whole if people want to go there.

www.slayaliveforums.proboards50.com/index.cgi?board=angelseason6&action=display&thread=5343

Feb 17, 2009 9:22:24 GMT -5 deathquaker said:

Late coming in on this convo as usual... but hope its ok to weigh in.

Can I agree with both of you?

Physics tells us nothing can be created or destroyed, only transformed. Beyond faith, existence tells me there is nothing that can actually become nothing.

Even if Sparrow was being 100% honest with Wesley and Gunn, he said, "Fred was consumed by the fires of resurrection."

Wood gets consumed by fire. Part of the wood becomes heat and light, part of the wood becomes ash. It doesn't go away, it just turns into something different. We eat food; we absorb its nutrients and so in a way part of it becomes us; it becomes caloric energy for us to use in daily activity, and yeah, even some of it becomes other forms of matter we expel from our body later (where it further breaks down and becomes energy and matter to be consumed by other things).

I think Illyria consumed Fred and in some way, merged with her essence. I do NOT think "Fred is alive." Fred is not Fred anymore. That's why Illyria can't "find Fred"--because she's transformed beyond recognition. But the irony is that whatever is left of her is right there. What was Fred now fuels Illyria. That's why Illyria's suddenly so open to the human condition, which would otherwise be likely quite impossible for a primordial demon to experience. Her demonic essence has consumed a human soul, and is now influenced by what she's "eaten" as it were.

Fred doesn't quite get a rest or a happy ending, but what she's been merged into has rendered a horrible monster into a powerful creature with depth and understanding on an increasingly human level. Just think, if Illyria had been reborn into... oh, Knox or some other Wolfram and Hart employee... the world would probably have been easily destroyed.

I do like this theory, because it retains the tragedy of Fred's death and adds depth to Illyria's character arc. I think the important thing to remember is that Fred's soul is not living inside Illyria's body as some kind of split personality (as proven via the Sadecki Demon) nor is she living happily ever after in heaven with Wesley. Fred's consciousness is gone, but her legacy lives on through Illyria's actions.

[Tyler Austin "tiewashere"]

What a bittersweet ending to the series

...I might wait till Aftermath comes out in a HC. I can't decide!!!

[AndrewCrossett]

Feb 17, 2009 18:09:12 GMT -5 Paul said:

I do like this theory, because it retains the tragedy of Fred's death and adds depth to Illyria's character arc. I think the important thing to remember is that Fred's soul is not living inside Illyria's body as some kind of split personality (as proven via the Sadecki Demon) nor is she living happily ever after in heaven with Wesley. Fred's consciousness is gone, but her legacy lives on through Illyria's actions.

But according to the terms of the theory, Fred's soul *has* to still exist due to conservation of matter. It simply exists as an aspect of Illyria's, to the point that there is no distinction between the two. What used to be Fred and what used to be Demon Illyria is now Illyria. The memories and emotions and consciousness that used to be Fred's are now New Illyria's.

Illyria thinks these are simply impressions left behind within her, because she can't perceive any other person sharing her body, but in fact they really are hers now. She's not entirely sweet, gentle Fred anymore, but she's also not entirely the ravening Cthulhuoid monster we saw in the final battle of AtF. She can take on that form, just as she can take on Fred's form. One form is as true as the other because they are both now equally part of her. She is an entirely new person made out of Fred and Illyria.

As has been pointed out, the idea that Fred's soul is "just gone" comes exclusively from an insane cultist with a vested interest in Angel & Co. not trying to get her back.

Finally, the knowledge that time can be shifted back and forth along its path, with people retaining full memories of each passage, implies that everything that has ever existed, or ever will exist, *does* exist simultaneously. Wolfram & Hart, or someone as powerful as them, could get her back at any time by simply pushing the timeline back to before she died.

[deathquaker]

Feb 17, 2009 14:58:06 GMT -5 El Diablo Robotico said:

As nice as it was to have a happy ending for once, the ending was a bit too contrived for my taste. 15 issues of all these horrible things happening, most of the cast being killed off, and then in the final 2 issues you get to hit the 'RESET' button, and everything's all better--all the dead characters come back to life, and the bad guys (W&H) have magically gone 'poof', into thin air.

I totally agree with you about the Reset Button issue (I had a huge rant about it over at my blog), particularly since this is not the first time Angel has pressed the reset button to solve his problems (and coincidentally, bring back Connor, who seems like he's totally living on borrowed time at some point). It just feels like a cop out to me. I'm not sure exactly why I feel this way, but I feel disappointed that I've been denied my apocalypse. Again. A real hero doesn't hit "rewind."

Consequences of the reset button may well pan out, but I was disappointed in how things went in that way. I did like *this* issue, though; the denouement was at least satisfying in a way the climax was not.

(snipped for length)And of course, there was the horrible editorial decision regarding the art team--first to move the original team to "Spike", but then also who they replaced them with (thinking mainly of the colorist in #9 and #10 who didn't seem to have anything on his palette but brown ).

I've read a couple IDW titles now and it strikes me there are some folks on the editorial level of decision making that don't do their job very well. A lot of the meta-inconsistencies with the title (much of what you've described) have to do with decisions that should be in the hands of the editors, who weren't holding the reins tight enough.

Feb 17, 2009 20:39:30 GMT -5 AndrewCrossett said:

But according to the terms of the theory, Fred's soul *has* to still exist due to conservation of matter. It simply exists as an aspect of Illyria's, to the point that there is no distinction between the two. What used to be Fred and what used to be Demon Illyria is now Illyria. The memories and emotions and consciousness that used to be Fred's are now New Illyria's.

That's a nice clean way of putting it. (And thanks to you and the other posters who kindly responded to my theory. )

Finally, the knowledge that time can be shifted back and forth along its path, with people retaining full memories of each passage, implies that everything that has ever existed, or ever will exist, *does* exist simultaneously. Wolfram & Hart, or someone as powerful as them, could get her back at any time by simply pushing the timeline back to before she died.

Probably, but there needs to be a limitation to that. (See my above thoughts on reset buttons). Much as I totally and utterly adore Fred (obvious fan is obvious), at this point I'd rather see the development of Illyria as she is than start all over again, again.

[Paul]

Feb 17, 2009 20:39:30 GMT -5 AndrewCrossett said:

Feb 17, 2009 18:09:12 GMT -5 Paul said:

I do like this theory, because it retains the tragedy of Fred's death and adds depth to Illyria's character arc. I think the important thing to remember is that Fred's soul is not living inside Illyria's body as some kind of split personality (as proven via the Sadecki Demon) nor is she living happily ever after in heaven with Wesley. Fred's consciousness is gone, but her legacy lives on through Illyria's actions.

But according to the terms of the theory, Fred's soul *has* to still exist due to conservation of matter. It simply exists as an aspect of Illyria's, to the point that there is no distinction between the two. What used to be Fred and what used to be Demon Illyria is now Illyria. The memories and emotions and consciousness that used to be Fred's are now New Illyria's.

Illyria thinks these are simply impressions left behind within her, because she can't perceive any other person sharing her body, but in fact they really are hers now. She's not entirely sweet, gentle Fred anymore, but she's also not entirely the ravening Cthulhuoid monster we saw in the final battle of AtF. She can take on that form, just as she can take on Fred's form. One form is as true as the other because they are both now equally part of her. She is an entirely new person made out of Fred and Illyria.

As has been pointed out, the idea that Fred's soul is "just gone" comes exclusively from an insane cultist with a vested interest in Angel & Co. not trying to get her back.

Finally, the knowledge that time can be shifted back and forth along its path, with people retaining full memories of each passage, implies that everything that has ever existed, or ever will exist, *does* exist simultaneously. Wolfram & Hart, or someone as powerful as them, could get her back at any time by simply pushing the timeline back to before she died.

The soul isn't gone gone but it has been destroyed beyond recognition. Using deathquaker's wood analogy, when wood burns it becomes energy and ash. But you can't get the wood back again, it's not wood anymore. Similarly, Fred's personality can't resurface in Illyria the way people thought it was during AtF's run. It's been damaged and exists in an entirely different form now, as ashes scattered across Illyria's consciousness.

[AndrewCrossett]

Sorry, but I'll stick with my interpretation and claim that Fred's soul exists now as an integral part of Illyria's, and that her consciousness is still there, but it's part of Illyria's now.

Honestly... although Joss has certainly put forth plot points that have upset me, this is the only one I can truly say offends me, to the point that it pulls me right out of the story and makes me say "that was gratuitously sadistic and wrong." And I need to work past that so that it doesn't permanently damage my outlook on JW's work.

I just don't find the death of hope to be an entertaining concept, even from Joss.

[AndrewCrossett]

Feb 18, 2009 9:45:07 GMT -5 deathquaker said:

Probably, but there needs to be a limitation to that. (See my above thoughts on reset buttons). Much as I totally and utterly adore Fred (obvious fan is obvious), at this point I'd rather see the development of Illyria as she is than start all over again, again.

I'm not saying they should do that, just pointing out that they could. My point being that this kind of fluid timeline (whether we like it or not as a story element or not) implies that nothing can ever truly cease to exist.

[kaleidoscope]

Feb 18, 2009 10:20:59 GMT -5 AndrewCrossett said:

Honestly... although Joss has certainly put forth plot points that have upset me, this is the only one I can truly say offends me, to the point that it pulls me right out of the story and makes me say "that was gratuitously sadistic and wrong." And I need to work past that so that it doesn't permanently damage my outlook on JW's work.

I just don't find the death of hope to be an entertaining concept, even from Joss.

Thanks for that post. I also found the story line that Fred's soul had been totally destroyed to be a step too far and I think that it makes her death one of the most shocking Whedonverse deaths ever. Like you say, it's the death of hope. It's something that has bothered me ever since the episode aired.

[deathquaker]

Feb 18, 2009 10:20:59 GMT -5 AndrewCrossett said:

Sorry, but I'll stick with my interpretation and claim that Fred's soul exists now as an integral part of Illyria's, and that her consciousness is still there, but it's part of Illyria's now.

I think Fred's consciousness is merged with Illyria's, but it's not recognizably Fred anymore (or Illyria herself would be more aware of that).

I kinda like Paul's analogy of ashes being scattered through Illyria's mind... evokes an appropriate funereal sense.

Or maybe inside the walls of Illyria's mind, there's just a lot of scribbling in magic marker...

Honestly... although Joss has certainly put forth plot points that have upset me, this is the only one I can truly say offends me, to the point that it pulls me right out of the story and makes me say "that was gratuitously sadistic and wrong." And I need to work past that so that it doesn't permanently damage my outlook on JW's work.

I just don't find the death of hope to be an entertaining concept, even from Joss.

I think Fred's death was truly devastating. I started watching Angel (I got late in the game around Season 4) solely for interest in that character. I think it was possibly one of the cruellest things I've seen in a Whedon story (although he has a habit of killing my favorite characters off, so I wasn't exactly surprised, mind).

But I don't think it represented the death of hope.

I could go on and on. Let's put it this way so I don't bore you: Illyria is Pandora's Box.

All the evil was let out and nearly destroyed the world. But it didn't--why?

Because hope remained behind.

Fred is unseen but unforgotten. There are other characters--important, longstanding characters who were killed off and that's that. But whenever Illyria ends up fighting the good fight, that's Fred's influence, one way or another. One tiny human soul, shattered to bits, overriding the corruption of a massive cthuloid Ancient One. That's a pretty damn awesome legacy.

[Brian Lynch]

Well said, and I just wanna say "Deathquaker" is a bad-ass name. If we ever do THE FLAMING SWORD OF GROOSALUGG, he's hanging with Deathquaker, for sure.

[deathquaker]

Feb 18, 2009 13:54:31 GMT -5 Brian Lynch said:

Well said, and I just wanna say "Deathquaker" is a bad-ass name. If we ever do THE FLAMING SWORD OF GROOSALUGG, he's hanging with Deathquaker, for sure.

LOL. You know, I've had my doubts about Groo in the past, but he's a great warrior, and if he wants to hang out with me, he's welcome to any time. ;D

[AndrewCrossett]

Someday minstrels will sing the ballad of Groosalugg, Deathquaker and the Two Cordys.

[Malsad]

lol

[Hallow Thorn]

I wonder how things would have gone if they went out at #13

“writer Brian Lynch has said that "it will not end at a dozen. I wish we could have gone out at 13, that seems fitting, but it’ll probably be a couple more than that”

[Malsad]

good question

[deathquaker]

Feb 18, 2009 16:26:16 GMT -5 AndrewCrossett said:

Someday minstrels will sing the ballad of Groosalugg, Deathquaker and the Two Cordys.

Can I sig that?

[AndrewCrossett]

Feb 18, 2009 21:23:25 GMT -5 deathquaker said:

Feb 18, 2009 16:26:16 GMT -5 AndrewCrossett said:

Someday minstrels will sing the ballad of Groosalugg, Deathquaker and the Two Cordys.

Can I sig that?

Sure! And since it was Brian's idea, you can even claim it's Angel canon.

(I'm suuuure Joss won't mind...)