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Post by buffyfan21 on Jul 14, 2009 19:38:01 GMT -5
Yeah. That makes sense. Illyria and Glory have different circumstances/origins. Just as there are many gods, Illyria and Glory are different gods, both rulers over different dimensions, etc. Illyria's pure demon, according to the 'verse. Gloria is the one who's actually a god. I imagine Illyria declaring itself a god-king was a bit hyperbolic - gods don't get stuck in sarcophagi and thrown into giant holes. Eh, maybe. She said she was "god to a god" though, so I dunno... Maybe I was reading too literally into the whole thing. Or perhaps Illyria was simply boasting about her own powers. As others have pointed out, though, even gods can be vulnerable, look at Glory. All the power in the world and she could not prevent herself being banished and sent to live inside a human host. Nor did they prevent her from getting beaten to a pulp by Buffy, who gained the upper hand in the end. In light of this, I would say that even with her infinite powers, Illyria could still find herself trapped in a sarcophagus. I think even gods have their limits. And I still think that they may have a tendency to exaggerate their powers and abilities in order to strike fear into the hearts of us mere mortals.
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siredbyspike
Initiative Soldier
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[Mo0:13]
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Post by siredbyspike on Jul 15, 2009 1:25:55 GMT -5
Aye, and Janus is a Roman god; he's the god of gates, doorways, beginnings and endings. Ahh, very interesting then that Glory found a gateway or doorway to Sunnydale. I am definately seeing a connection now even if it is only in my own mind. And, coming to Sunnydale was her ending... ok now I am reading waaay too much into it probably, lol. And thanks Sky for the karma!
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BenTaylor3907
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Post by BenTaylor3907 on Jul 16, 2009 19:18:04 GMT -5
When Illyria was an Old One, she didn't have a gender. Once it inhabited Fred's body, it was then referred to as a she. *agrees* In Fallen Angel Reborn, Illyria refers back to her primordial state as being a Goddess. Just thought I would through that out there.
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Post by CowboyGuy on Jul 17, 2009 6:32:49 GMT -5
Seems like Lovecraft was the inspiration for the Buffyverse's Old Ones:
"They were not composed altogether of flesh and blood. They had shape...but that shape was not made of matter. When the stars were right, They could plunge from world to world through the sky; but when the stars were wrong, They could not live. But although They no longer lived, They would never really die. They all lay in stone houses in Their great city of R'lyeh, preserved by the spells of mighty Cthulhu for a glorious resurrection when the stars and the earth might once more be ready for Them"
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Post by Skytteflickan88 on Jul 17, 2009 13:52:24 GMT -5
When Illyria was an Old One, she didn't have a gender. Once it inhabited Fred's body, it was then referred to as a she. *agrees* In Fallen Angel Reborn, Illyria refers back to her primordial state as being a Goddess. Just thought I would through that out there. Hmmm. Maybe Illyria didn't care about if she was called a God or Godess by then, since she probably was genderless. And maybe living in a female's body, Fred's memory starting to effect her, made her feel womanly. Or maybe the writer didn't think about that Illyria might not have had a gender, and that she/he earlier called herself a God-king. Minor error in that case.
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Hellbound Hyperion
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Post by Hellbound Hyperion on Jul 17, 2009 17:05:59 GMT -5
I feel like this is more likely. Having all of Fred's memories restored to Illyria (at the end of After the Fall) probably woke up a lot of new human experiences Illyria had never even known existed before; Fred being constantly present in Illyria probably projects her gender onto Illyria.
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Post by snizapman6294 on Jul 18, 2009 10:07:47 GMT -5
i definitely agree that Illyria's genderless... i think Knox just found someone he was attracted to and chose Fred because he felt she deserved it... i mean i think we'd be having the same argument if Knox had chosen Wes or Gunn or another male character. because Knox saying "it" instead of "she" kind of supports that Illyria's genderless... i think that most of the people who think Illyria is female are just looking at the surface... and i thought Illyria was a woman for a long time... until i saw her true form in the comics.
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Post by Brian Lynch on Jul 18, 2009 15:07:40 GMT -5
My opinion is, she has Fred's body so obviously physically she's a lady. Ever since ATF, she's been majorly influenced by Fred, so even Illyria would refer to herself as female now.
That is just my opinion, however.
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kimtaro
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Post by kimtaro on Jul 18, 2009 16:43:43 GMT -5
Just my two cents - I don't think gods/demons necessarily have to have a gender. They can be like asexual.
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Hellbound Hyperion
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Post by Hellbound Hyperion on Jul 18, 2009 16:58:02 GMT -5
My opinion is, she has Fred's body so obviously physically she's a lady. Ever since ATF, she's been majorly influenced by Fred, so even Illyria would refer to herself as female now. That is just my opinion, however. This is sort of what I was going for, although I'm not sure if Illyria would refer to itself as "her" exactly yet. But Fred's memories definitely have an effect on her; they were already piquing her interest at the end of Season Five, when she wanted to explore the relationship Fred had with Wesley in a more... intimate capacity. Having all of them back certainly changes things a great deal more, now that Illyria understands more fully the person that Fred was and the decisions she made (i.e. to leave her parents' home in Texas and move to California to study physics).
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Post by Skytteflickan88 on Jul 18, 2009 17:04:12 GMT -5
Just my two cents - I don't think gods/demons necessarily have to have a gender. They can be like asexual. Doesn't asexual mean that you don't like sex? Not that you're gender-less?
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gumgnome
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Post by gumgnome on Jul 18, 2009 17:18:12 GMT -5
Asexual in biological terms refers to being genderless and reproducing mitotically, producing a perfect clone of oneself. I'm not so hip on psychology and gender studies, but I'm pretty sure I've heard the term used to refer to people who have no sex drive as well.
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kimtaro
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Post by kimtaro on Jul 18, 2009 18:01:13 GMT -5
Asexual in biological terms refers to being genderless and reproducing mitotically, producing a perfect clone of oneself. Yes, like flowers Maybe it doesn't make absolute sense, but I think it gives the gist of my meaning. Asexual things can reproduce without a partner...which IMO, sort makes them genderless, since they are the mother and the father
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Nicholas
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Post by Nicholas on Jul 21, 2009 20:20:34 GMT -5
Well, now she is obviously a female.
But I think she was female before as well, or genderless. Based on the picture we saw of her, the way the demon looked it was just...feminine.
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BlueJay
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Post by BlueJay on Aug 25, 2009 11:20:12 GMT -5
I think that Illyria was genderless, but was probably considered feminine by its followers, which is why they decided to find it a female host. When Illyria reverts back to its demon self, everyone clearly refers to Illyria as "it", so I believe the female aspect of Illyria is solely because of Fred.
But to prevent confusion, I like to think of Illyria as female, and I'm sure she considers herself that too.
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Post by CowboyGuy on Aug 25, 2009 11:34:45 GMT -5
My opinion is, she has Fred's body so obviously physically she's a lady. Ever since ATF, she's been majorly influenced by Fred, so even Illyria would refer to herself as female now. That is just my opinion, however. I agree with this. I think that in Illyria's time she was virtually genderless, or even male. Being referred to as a "God King" which is clearly a masculine term. Even so, I think that presently Illyria would say she is a she. Glorificus sounds more masculine than Illyria...LOL.
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The Night Lord
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Post by The Night Lord on Aug 26, 2009 1:36:51 GMT -5
When she returns to her true form in After the Fall, I still thought of Illyria as female. I mean, her armour colouring seemed feminine and when she talks, I'm thinking of her human voice. I just like to think of Illyria as female through and through
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regishel
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Post by regishel on Aug 26, 2009 6:21:13 GMT -5
Interesting, so where does Glory fit in, being a god and all? "Hmm" good question Evilwillowrocker.
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regishel
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Post by regishel on Aug 26, 2009 7:53:27 GMT -5
Your so right Destructo Girl , that's exactly what I was thinking, Damn why couldn't I have said that one first.
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Post by rogerparker20 on Aug 26, 2009 12:37:03 GMT -5
I definately agree that Illyria was genderless, and only referred to as she when inhabiting Fred. I think the Old Ones are definately supposed to be Lovecraftian Cthulhu types. As for Glory, I always wondered if she was genderless or like the two-faced male/female statue that Ethan has in that one episode.( I believe he calls that god Janus? It has been a long time since I watched it.) Glory takes over a male body, yet when she turns she is definately into shoes, clothes, and "pretty, girly" things. And everyone calls her a god, not a goddess. So maybe her and Ben are like flip sides of a coin and that's why she needs him so much, not just because he's her human host? Maybe back at "home" she was both male/female and since she came here she had to share and only got one side of the aspect so that is why she goes overboard on the dresses and such. I know she likes to be surrounded by nice things though-so I could be completely wrong about this. This has always been something I've wondered about. I've also always wondered what it would be like for Glory and Illyria to meet and have a conversation. I think that would be hilarious on so many levels. I wonder if they would get along or hate each other though. I'm betting they would hate each other and each brag about how great they were, trying to one-up the other. OMG I would love to see a conversation between Illyria and Glory. I bet it would be hilarious. I've always thought of Illyria being genderless in its' natural form and when it inhibited Fred it became a "she."
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