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Post by dragonweaver on Apr 11, 2009 9:51:08 GMT -5
Dominiques reveal was awesome but his "deactivation"(is that what you call it?) was really creepy! but does that mean he's dead? cause Topher has his lie in the cartdrige so maybe he can live again for all I know. Dominic isn't really dead, he has just been turned into a vegetable. He's not like the dolls, he has no real brain function, he just exists without thought. And I did get the impression that he can be returned to his former self if they want/need to bring him back. His personality is now stored just like one of Topher's imprints. Can someone please explain the conversation between Echo and Dom in the van to me cause I didn't really get it did he mean that all the workers use to be actives cause that's what I thought when he said I think "Soon enough your gonna be doing the wiping" or something like that. As for this, I think Dominic was saying that someday Echo will become just like Alpha and she will "erase" all the people at the Dollhouse. I got the impression he was using erase or wiping out as a pun for killing everyone.
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Post by Wyndam on Apr 11, 2009 11:05:19 GMT -5
Yeah, Dominic definitely isn't the same spy that is helping Paul Ballard through Echo and Mellie. That is an entirely different matter.
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Post by Rebecca on Apr 11, 2009 11:41:26 GMT -5
I loved this episode!!!!!111oneone I have so much more empathy for Adele now, that scene where she breaks down is truly heartbreaking. I too am mixed as to why she was crying exactly; betrayal, the loss of a lover, or betrayal by someone she truly loved. I have to say I disagree that Adele was using Roger as a stand-in for Dominic. I saw lots of trust between Dominic and Adele, but only platonic love. She didn't long for him, there were no scenes of Adele watching Dominic without him seeing, just signs that she genuinely trusts him and cares about his well being. Also Dominic and Roger are completely different personality types. At first I thought Roger was Adele's dead husband, but that was never said outright, so I can't say for sure whether I believe Roger is an existing personality Adele used to know or a completely new personality compiled especially for Ms. Lonely Hearts. Also, Enver Gjokaj has some really awesome acting chops clearly shown in "Roger". I also think it's important to reiterate that I do not think the mole sending messages through Echo and now November to Ballard is the NSA Spy/Dominic. Their motives are exactly opposite. Dominic wanted to preserve the Dollhouse, seeing the current management as doomed to lose grip of the technology. He also saw Echo as a threat to the Dollhouse, and echo (as it were) of Alpha, which is why he tried to kill her in "True Believer". Like Dragonweaver said, Dominic thinks Echo will eventually kill the workers in the Dollhouse much like Alpha did. The Mole on the other hand seems to want to take the Dollhouse down, from the inside. If the Mole were to outright expose the Dollhouse, the Actives may be exposed to he real world as Dolls without imprint which would be severely frightening and incapacitating or worse, killed. Taking the Dollhouse down from the inside, smartly, rationally, might allow for a controlled implosion. "The Dollhouse deals with fantasy, but that is not their purpose. You must investigate their purpose."
We know from FOX's stupidly leaked April Fool's Video that Ballard becomes Echo's Handler at some point. I have to wonder if Ballard finds the Dollhouse's purpose, and places himself within the organization or if he gets closer to the Dollhouse now that Mr. NSA Spy is out of the picture. The entire NSA/Sierra sequence was superb. Greatly written with lots of gadgets, had a very Alias and Matrix vibe going on. Plus those shoes were outrageous and Dichen knew exactly how to pull that outfit off. Outstanding.
Ohemgee, how sad was it when November shifted to the Mole's message? I felt so hard for Ballard. Betrayed by Mellie (as stupid as that may sound), manipulated by the Dollhouse, forced to comply and continue the faux-mance with Mellie while knowing she is a doll. Truly heartbreaking. Ignorance is bliss, in every sense of the word.
How awesome was it when Echo asked to be imprinted?? FREAKING AWESOME is the answer, obviously. To me, the lines between Echo and Caroline are becoming fuzzy, and the traits we see and love in Echo are implicit traits existing in Caroline. She doesn't like it when people are upset or hurting, and just wants to take action to make it better. Also, the scene with the "Spyhunter" imprint and Dominic was really good, one of Eliza's better performances. This show is really allowing Dolls to be empathetic with very little in the way of personality, something critics harshly shouted when the show and premise was released.
Edit: Andrew Chambliss did an awesome job with this one. Look forward to more from him!
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Post by hitnrun017 on Apr 11, 2009 12:23:52 GMT -5
I mean that the situation with Laurence, the building relationship that could never go anywhere for over 3 years, being forever stymied when they did have that chemistry - it led to Adelle creating "Roger" who was the perfect embodiment of what she wanted. Someone who mocked the Dollhouse and it's rules like Adelle wanted to, who wasn't chained to it (in theory) the way Dominic and Adelle were. "Roger" is a creation of Adelle's need and that need was frustrated by her workplace situation surrounded by Dominic. It doesn't mean that Adelle was thinking about Dominic when she was with "Roger", she was fully wrapped up in her fantasy. But that's how transference works. Her stunted relationship with Laurence led to a need to indulge in this fantasy life with "Roger". And it should be very telling that as she discovers Laurence has betrayed her, she cuts herself off from "Roger" forever, finding the indiscretion too costly now. It cannot be ignored that her excising Laurence from her life and sending him to the attic occurs at the exact same time that she cuts "Roger" from her life. "Roger" was the fantasy version of whatever real connection Adelle had with Laurence. And when Laurence betrayed her trust, she cracked down hard on every soft emotion inside of her. This is why we see her refusing the anesthetic from Dr. Saunders, why she just brushes off the bullet wound. She's like a wounded animal in a trap who would gnaw off her own arm in order to survive, no matter the pain. She must remake herself into stone, hardened inside and out. Just as she's hardened her heart, so has her skin hardened. She is impervious to bullets now, impervious to pain. She won't let herself be hurt. That was freaking deep. Some amazing points I never thought about, especially the impervious thing. Guess I just misunderstood your post. I'm not that dumb. But still, Victor was the embodiment of Roger.... like nine or ten times or something, that's has to be hard to let go of, not just the fantasy, but the physical person. She has to have some feelings for him.
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jellymoff
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Post by jellymoff on Apr 11, 2009 12:36:41 GMT -5
Jed, Maurissa, Jane, and Joss really pulled this one off. Best one yet. OK, it says this ep was written by Andrew Camberliss, but people keep mentioning Jane and Jed and Maurissa. Am I missing something?
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Post by hitnrun017 on Apr 11, 2009 12:46:16 GMT -5
Jed, Maurissa, Jane, and Joss really pulled this one off. Best one yet. OK, it says this ep was written by Andrew Camberliss, but people keep mentioning Jane and Jed and Maurissa. Am I missing something? Yeah, there was confusion. This thread use to say it was written by Jane, Jed and Maurissa and that the next episode was written by Andrew Chamberliss. One episode used to be called "Four Engagements", which was obviously this one.
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Post by wenxina on Apr 11, 2009 12:49:53 GMT -5
Some really great stuff in this episode. Kinda glad that they changed the title from "Four Engagements". While there were indeed four engagements, the focus really wasn't on the engagements. But I think it did grant the wishes of some to see some of the other Actives out on their own engagements. Things that I found most engaging, in no particular order. "Mellie's" message to Paul was devastating to watch. You have this guy who is verging on paranoia thinking he's about to be "grounded" again, and instead is completely blindsided. He thinks he's got stuff figured out, and instead gets hit with a whole new whammy. And bitter irony... he now has to continue the charade with Mellie, effectively living an illusion. Sierra's engagement was a fun romp... but essentially predictable. No big reveals there. But I did find it intriguing that the Japanese woman she was impersonating (Ms. Sato, was it?) is ultimately so forgettable that no one seems to realize that it's a different person. I mean, I know that all Asians are supposed to look alike, but seriously? I'm usually of the same mind as Emmie, but I've been pretty adamant about opposing the Adele/Dominic 'ship. I didn't see Adele's shelving of "Roger" as a final kiss off to Dominic. I thought that she was crying because she had to be hard outside, and had her confidence shaken. Dominic called her "naive". Made her look like a fool by infiltrating her house. There was betrayal, but I think she was crying because he was right, and that she had allowed all this to happen because of her negligence. Because of her need for an illusion. "Roger" was pretty much that, an illusion of a life that she couldn't have. Shelving "Roger" was shelving any hope of that illusion; to be aware in other words. I thought this was shown quite subtly by her not wanting an anesthetic when Saunders was patching her up. In other words, she didn't want to be drugged. She wanted to be painfully aware (couldn't resist the pun), to be in control again. The pain was punishment for her neglect. I'm not saying that Dominic was just a colleague. He was her Head of Security, her right-hand man essentially. She entrusted the Dollhouse to him in her absence. But I never caught any romantic vibes between the two, and if nothing else, this episode reinforced that because of my interpretation of those scenes. In other words, the crying was the result of having to give up another part of herself; the self she indulges in total privacy. I loved the self-awareness that Echo showed in this episode. And as Rebecca pointed out, Echo's personality is becoming less and less distinguishable from Caroline's. All she wants to do is help, and make a difference. That said, that wave at November/"Mellie" was really cute... there was a real child-like innocence to the gesture. As for her "Spyhunter" persona... I raised an eyebrow at first about how Topher conveniently imprinted her with "kung-fu skills", but then again, it's probably standard protocol whenever an Active is sent out on a risky engagement. This could potentially have been risky. The best Echo moment for me was when she kept looking as Boyd even as she said her "vows" to her new handler. More info on the Attic... it's beginning to sound horribly creepy. I get why threats like Dominic would have been sent to the Attic, but why would problematic Dolls be dealt with that way? Why not just mind-wipe them, and reprogram their original personalities (something which can obviously be done, since Topher essentially had the "unabridged" Lawrence Dominic on file in that cassette/drive thing) and send them on their merry way? But the concept of the Attic is pretty cool... kinda like the boogieman legend for the Dollhouse, and it was nice to see some of the facts behind the myth. All in all, excellent ep. So far, past "Man on the Street", only ep 7 failed to deliver all the goods.
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Post by Midnight Butterfly on Apr 11, 2009 13:03:17 GMT -5
Loved the episode. It has almost everything packed into it. Drama, action, comedy. I understand Adelles character alot more than I used to. Was suprised that Lawrence was the spy and that Adelle was hiring Victor On of the best episodes
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BuffyFanOne
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Post by BuffyFanOne on Apr 11, 2009 13:33:29 GMT -5
so answer me this... if the mole was indeed dominic, was he the one imprinting all of the messages for paul?
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Post by Rebecca on Apr 11, 2009 13:38:37 GMT -5
Yeah, there was confusion. This thread use to say it was written by Jane, Jed and Maurissa and that the next episode was written by Andrew Chamberliss. One episode used to be called "Four Engagements", which was obviously this one. For some reason, Andrew Chambiss is listed separately from Jed, Maurissa, and Jane on IMDB.com. Not sure exactly why, but when I double checked this morning, I must have missed him. EDIT I had to watch the episode for the name of the writer since info is different at every site, it was definitely Chambliss, not the other three. Sierra's engagement was a fun romp... but essentially predictable. No big reveals there. But I did find it intriguing that the Japanese woman she was impersonating (Ms. Sato, was it?) is ultimately so forgettable that no one seems to realize that it's a different person. I mean, I know that all Asians are supposed to look alike, but seriously? I thought the same thing! Their faces could not have been further apart. I thought for sure when that random man came in to tell her to evacuate he would recognize her but no. Serious fail, hahaha. so answer me this... if the mole was indeed dominic, was he the one imprinting all of the messages for paul? As I wrote previously, no, I don't think so. The motives are completely different.
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Marcos
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Post by Marcos on Apr 11, 2009 13:45:59 GMT -5
A-fraking-MAZING episode!!!!!!!!! I got shocked so many times I lost track . Adelle's humanity was perhaps the most OMGness of this episode. The crying, the romance, the self-inflicted lie of happiness and love. Her emotional misery and ambiguity is another Whedonism I'm always delighted to experience. And the fight scenes, WOW. I'm glad Eliza is still up to that kind of mad skills. Awesome!! And yeah, I'm also sure that there is a second mole. And I'm REALLY hoping it's Saunders. Her interrogation was really suspectful, her look and all. This girl has too many to hide, about Alpha and her purpose in the house. OMG, can't believe there's just 3 eps to go. T__T
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Post by Wyndam on Apr 11, 2009 13:56:03 GMT -5
so answer me this... if the mole was indeed dominic, was he the one imprinting all of the messages for paul? Nope. 100% definitely not. They are two different people with two different goals.
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Post by AndrewCrossett on Apr 11, 2009 14:12:19 GMT -5
When November was giving her recorded message to Paul, did she say that the "inside man" was a doll, or did I hear it wrong?
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Post by Rebecca on Apr 11, 2009 14:34:09 GMT -5
I just relistened to the message, and the only thing I heard was "her person inside has been captured, this is the last time you'll hear from us through a doll."
From what I remember, when November was imprinted, no one was captured. Perhaps the message came when it was activated remotely when the person inside was captured?
Only two people were captured, Ivy and Dominic. I don't think the person inside is Dominic, so...
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Post by Emmie on Apr 11, 2009 15:11:57 GMT -5
I'm usually of the same mind as Emmie, but I've been pretty adamant about opposing the Adele/Dominic 'ship. I didn't see Adele's shelving of "Roger" as a final kiss off to Dominic. Xi, yeah it's not so much a 'ship as a personal connection in the workplace that Adelle feels she cannot afford. Any personal connection is unwanted, makes her vulnerable. So there's leeway to read it either as two people who are a bit 'n sync with each other and this disturbs Adelle because of the fact that it is chipping away at her professional facade. I still think it's clear that she cared about Dominic quite a bit as he did to her - they both expressed concern for each other's well-being in the past three episodes. Adelle in Echoes, Dominic in A Spy in the House of Love. I doubt it would have ever truly had romantic overtones, undertones or any tone-age at all because Adelle refused to let that personal connection develop into something more. The tiny bit of feeling she had for Dominic and that she allowed that feeling to exist is the reality proportionate to the huge fantasy of feeling she created. When she excised the reality because it became too costly, she excised the part of her that could indulge in the fantasy also. Ethan, didn't mean to imply you're dumb. *smacks upside the head* Just that in a show like Dollhouse, I think we have to differentiate between the blank slate states of Victor, Echo, Sierra and November and the imprinted states. And to me, I think the personality was a huge part of what attracted Adelle. The body and physical abilities were another. Also interesting that she created "Roger" to be British like her, something that Victor clearly is not.
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Post by hitnrun017 on Apr 11, 2009 15:17:09 GMT -5
Ethan, didn't mean to imply you're dumb. *smacks upside the head* Just that in a show like Dollhouse, I think we have to differentiate between the blank slate states of Victor, Echo, Sierra and November and the imprinted states. And to me, I think the personality was a huge part of what attracted Adelle. The body and physical abilities were another. Also interesting that she created "Roger" to be British like her, something that Victor clearly is not. Haha, I know, just messing around. It's so hard to differentiate them, there's too many names! I really want this Adelle thing to be explored more, it's fascinating. I went from liking her character to loving her character in the span of that one act.
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Nicholas
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Post by Nicholas on Apr 11, 2009 16:54:52 GMT -5
Normally I work on Fridays and have to watch Dollhouse around midnight, which includes me falling asleep half way through and having to finish it in the morning, however this episode managed to keep my attention the whole way through!
I am not going to say that this was the best episode yet, as some of the things in this episode were a tad confusing such as Echo and Boyds car ride. I didnt really grasp what they were talking about, but the rest of the episode was great.
My theory on why Adelle starting crying was because she realised that nothing in her life was truly genuine. She had Dominic whom she was supposed to be able to trust, yet he betrayed her in the end and then she turned over to see "Roger" and realised that he was just as fake as well.
Where exactly did Sierra go when she broke into that place disguised as the asian women? That part was also kind of confusing or maybe I just missed something.
I like how no matter how much Echo is wiped in the end, she is still self aware and progressing back to her original self. She recognised friendship within Mellie and felt concern for people being unhappy within the Dollhouse, which is kind of large. I think that Echo's new handler will be short lived (possibly literally) due to her maintained eye contact with Boyd.
I felt bad for Ballard when he spoke to the spy aka Mellie. I thought it was odd that the Spy told Ballard that the Dollhouse has been watching him for sometime and sent her to throw him off, because had they not, he would have discovered the Dollhouse by then and they would have killed him. Is that right?
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BenTaylor3907
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Post by BenTaylor3907 on Apr 11, 2009 16:59:14 GMT -5
When I first saw that old chick opening the door for Victor, I was appalled . lol. Dewitt is a naughty girl. And a strong one apparently. She took a bullet and acted like nothing was wrong. *gives kudos to Dewitt* I wonder what will happen to the real Japanese woman. She'll probably get accused of stealing the data or whatever and be executed. Major bummer if that happens. Echo is so smart, she impresses me more each episode. Mwahahaha, Dominic got what was coming to him. Boyd! I'm not liking the replacement, all I can think about is him abusing her in some way like Hearn did to Sierra. Poor Dr. Saunders. She has no friends outside of the Dollhouse. I guess she really doesn't have any friends at all since her coworkers the Dolls' mindset is constantly changed and her coworkers, IMO treat her like crap.
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Post by wenxina on Apr 11, 2009 17:17:20 GMT -5
Xi, it's not so much a 'ship as a personal connection in the workplace that Adelle feels she cannot afford. Any personal connection is unwanted, makes her vulnerable. So there's leeway to read it either as two people who are a bit 'n sync with each other and this disturbs Adelle because of the fact that it is chipping away at her professional facade. I still think it's clear that she cared about Dominic quite a bit as he did to her - they both expressed concern for each other's well-being in the past three episodes. Adelle in Echoes, Dominic in A Spy in the House of Love. I doubt it would have ever truly had romantic overtones, undertones or any tone-age at all because Adelle refused to let that personal connection develop into something more. The tiny bit of feeling she had for Dominic and that she allowed that feeling to exist is the reality proportionate to the huge fantasy of feeling she created. When she excised the reality because it became too costly, she excised the part of her that could indulge in the fantasy also. Are you saying now that our minds have merged again? Coz I more or less said all that in the original post.
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Post by Greer on Apr 11, 2009 19:01:32 GMT -5
I finally watched this episode and I really enjoyed it. Wow is the first word that comes to mind. I almost lost it when Mellie/November revealed herself to Ballard. Poor Ballard! He's trying so hard to take them down, and now he knows that Mellie is part of it. That's heartbreaking.
Miss Lonely Hearts...Poor DeWitt! That makes me feel for her; I wonder who "Roger" is to her, if he's an old flame or just an idealized version of a mate. It made me feel a little icky because she's so much older than him, but it was still ok. The British accent was a nice edition; this is 3 accents for him now? English, Russian, and British. Rock on.
I wasn't very surprised that Dominic was the NSA mole. I'm glad that he got caught; he honestly just unnerved me. Did he grab a gun from someone really quick and shoot Dewitt? She's a badass if she can just take a bullet and move on.
I'm very curious who the person is that keeps sending the messages to Ballard--I want to see more with him in the episodes! I want to see how he interacts with Mellie and what he believes is really going on in the Dollhouse, if he's going to hide all his findings from her and where he'll be going with his discoveries.
Superb episode, I loved the format, everything makes sense now. Oh god, how I do not want FOX to cancel it.
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