Season 8 - Retreat Part 1: Issue 26

[dane5by5]

This was a pretty great issue. Although I didn't dislike Predators and Prey as much as most people, this issue really was payoff and the battle scenes were impressive, a very good way to make it large scale and take advantage of the no-budget issues without being gimmicky.

The art seemed a little rushed to me, although to be fair, most of Georges art since The Long Way Home has given me that impression. Some nice panels that were very well done, the colouring was complementary.

Jane Espenson writes Andrew so well, it's uncanny. Also, I agree that the pacing of this issue was fantastic, disregarding the disconnect between the PAP arc and this issue, it worked very well. But her Faith dialogue didn't work so well, and as she is one of my favourite characters, who has had limited pages the past 15 issues, when she has lines, they need to count. This made me wish Joss or Brian or Doug was writing these issues, but hopefully Jane Espenson can write her some classic lines over the next four issues.

I think this premise has great potential, and I'm looking forward to the reunion next issue.

[Paul]

Jul 3, 2009 20:44:07 GMT -5 wenxina said:

Jul 3, 2009 17:34:13 GMT -5 Paul said:

I read this issue yesterday and was slightly confused by it. Not sure what to think. I talked it over with my friend who likes Buffy and he had some interesting things to say. Basically, there was a lot of good stuff in this issue but it was totally rushed. My friend described this as "damage control", they had to make up for "P&P"'s mistakes, but didn't have enough pages. He thinks that everything we saw in #26 should have been spread out since "Harmonic Divergence"... the characters reacting to the new world order and travelling to Scotland to get to Buffy. That way, "P&P" would have been better and this issue wouldn't have felt like a glorified "Previously on...".

Gotta disagree with your friend's assessment that this was "damage control". For one, this was written way before most of the flak for the "Predators and Prey" arc poured in. Jeanty is already up to #29 with the pencils right now, just to put the timeframe into perspective. "P&P" is irrefutably the weakest arc thus far, but I don't think #26 tried to compensate for lost time at all. What I really liked about it was the pacing. It was really tight, with each panel and page counting. There was no fat at all, and as the exposition piece of an arc, it succeeds in setting up the events to come. I agree that having the different characters reacting to the new status quo would probably have been a better approach for the entire "P&P" arc. In fact, that was my initial impression of what that arc was supposed to be, instead of 5 loosely connected stories. But I guess what you felt was rushed, I thought was urgent. The events of "P&P" have finally culminated in an international smackdown on Slayers everywhere. Twilight's orchestrating the entire thing, which is why it makes sense that it's hit after hit, instead of a more leisurely plan of attack. Remember that Japan was already conquering swaths of South-East Asia when they attacked Pearl Harbor. The best way to cripple your enemy is to hit them at their weakest points, all at once.

Urgent is good, but the urgency came out of nowhere. "P&P" was so laid back, and then suddenly the characters are in the fight of their life with very little set-up. I just felt like this issue had to make up for lost time.

I do agree that this was the exposition piece of the arc, and with it out of the way, I hope that the rest will be a lot better.

[Emmie]

Jul 4, 2009 12:16:52 GMT -5 dane5by5 said:

Although I didn't dislike Predators and Prey as much as most people

I think most people didn't really care for the Predators and Prey arc, actually.

Jul 4, 2009 12:16:52 GMT -5 dane5by5 said:

But her Faith dialogue didn't work so well, and as she is one of my favourite characters, who has had limited pages the past 15 issues, when she has lines, they need to count. This made me wish Joss or Brian or Doug was writing these issues, but hopefully Jane Espenson can write her some classic lines over the next four issues.

It's funny you should mention this. Jane Espenson never wrote episodes starring Faith in Season 3 (though she was Executive Story Editor at the time). And the one episode she wrote that had Faith in it during Season 7 was co-written with Doug Petrie, the king of Faith writing. So it's not surprising that her Faith-voice might be a bit off. And that one line of Faith's during the battle doesn't flow all that great.

Writers of Faith on BtVS: David Greenwalt, Doug Petrie, Dan Vebber (the Zeppo - for what it's worth), Marti Noxon, David Fury, and of course Joss Whedon.

Writers of Faith on AtS: Jim Kouf, Tim Minear, Joss Whedon, David Greenwalt, David Fury, Stephen DeKnight, Mere Smith, Fain & Craft, Jeff Bell.

Perhaps there's something to the idea that the people who helped shaped the character's voice have the best grasp on her. I'd say for Faith, those two people are Joss Whedon and Doug Petrie. And Brian K Vaughan seems immediately dialed in to Faith's voice.

Jul 4, 2009 12:16:52 GMT -5 dane5by5 said:

Jane Espenson writes Andrew so well, it's uncanny.

Agreed and interesting to note that compared to writing Faith, Jane Espenson has a lot of experience in shaping Andrew's voice. Perhaps that's why after all these years of not writing Andrew, she immediately dials into his voice. She was a major writer of the Trio episodes during Season 6 and of course wrote the Andrew-centric Storyteller of Season 7. So it's no surprise she immediately nails the character.

Then there are writers like Drew Goddard who showed up during Season 7 and just immediately got the characters' voices and Brian K Vaughan who did amazing writing for Faith and Giles in No Future For You.

[AndrewCrossett]

Jul 4, 2009 14:59:45 GMT -5 Emmie said:

I think most people didn't really care for the Predators and Prey arc, actually.

I liked (most of) it. I just think it was a mistake to string all that together for so long... seven standalone issues in a row, counting the TotV one. Took us out of the main story for too long.

[hitnrun017]

Jul 4, 2009 15:04:12 GMT -5 AndrewCrossett said:

Jul 4, 2009 14:59:45 GMT -5 Emmie said:

I think most people didn't really care for the Predators and Prey arc, actually.

I liked (most of) it. I just think it was a mistake to string all that together for so long... seven standalone issues in a row, counting the TotV one. Took us out of the main story for too long.

I agree. They aren't bad issues (except that one), but it just didn't work for the half a year it took us away from the story and main characters. Nothing big ever happened and barely gave us fans anything to chew on. Rrereading them all together works a lot better though. I'm just so happy that Retreat has given us stuff to speculate about again, something P&P didn't do.

[Emmie]

Well, there was a lot of negative criticism for Harmonic Divergence and Safe. I personally liked Harmonic Divergence though the first few pages don't work well in comic form (the storytelling style was better for TV). I'm sure everybody and their mom know how I feel about Safe, so I won't bother rehashing that. But looking back on the arc, they probably never should have given it an arc title at all. It doesn't work as 5 stories working together. The structure was faulty there. The issues just lacked excitement. They didn't build off each other.

And heh, no comments on all that voice-analysis stuff, huh? All that looking up of episodes and credited writers was wasted.

[wenxina]

Jul 4, 2009 13:23:10 GMT -5 Paul said:

Urgent is good, but the urgency came out of nowhere. "P&P" was so laid back, and then suddenly the characters are in the fight of their life with very little set-up. I just felt like this issue had to make up for lost time.

Well, the urgency is explained in what amounts to a "Previously on..." section on the inside of the front cover.
Not the best way to do it, I agree, since it would have been better explained in a few issues in lieu of some of the "P&P" issues. But what can you do... some bad choices in "P&P".

[Paul]

Jul 4, 2009 15:04:12 GMT -5 AndrewCrossett said:

Jul 4, 2009 14:59:45 GMT -5 Emmie said:

I think most people didn't really care for the Predators and Prey arc, actually.

I liked (most of) it. I just think it was a mistake to string all that together for so long... seven standalone issues in a row, counting the TotV one. Took us out of the main story for too long.

"Predators & Prey"... sigh.

To be honest, as individual stories taken on their own terms, they're not bad. Not great, but not bad. An average 6 or 7 out of ten. I enjoyed the "P&P" oneshot the most, just because I'm an Andrew fanboy. But, as Andrew (Crossett, not Wells) says, it was a terrible decision to run seven standalones in a row and the main story has totally floundered in the background.

Once "Retreat" gets us back on track, I'll be able to look at "P&P" more forgivingly. Except "Safe", that was just crap. Sheer crap. The worst canon Buffy story without a doubt.

[dane5by5]

Jul 4, 2009 14:59:45 GMT -5 Emmie said:

Jul 4, 2009 12:16:52 GMT -5 dane5by5 said:

Although I didn't dislike Predators and Prey as much as most people

I think most people didn't really care for the Predators and Prey arc, actually.

That's what I meant, that I didn't DISLIKE it as much as most people. I didn't find it that bad. Some issues were very good in my opinion. It's downfall was not having a strong narrative joining the issues together and the execution of the idea, was not so good. Harmonic Divergence needed more impact and this needed to be shown over the next issues to drive home the fact that the world has changed so significantly for Buffy and Co.

Jul 4, 2009 14:59:45 GMT -5 Emmie said:

Jul 4, 2009 12:16:52 GMT -5 dane5by5 said:

It's funny you should mention this. Jane Espenson never wrote episodes starring Faith in Season 3 (though she was Executive Story Editor at the time). And the one episode she wrote that had Faith in it during Season 7 was co-written with Doug Petrie, the king of Faith writing. So it's not surprising that her Faith-voice might be a bit off. And that one line of Faith's during the battle doesn't flow all that great.

Writers of Faith on BtVS: David Greenwalt, Doug Petrie, Dan Vebber (the Zeppo - for what it's worth), Marti Noxon, David Fury, and of course Joss Whedon.

Writers of Faith on AtS: Jim Kouf, Tim Minear, Joss Whedon, David Greenwalt, David Fury, Stephen DeKnight, Mere Smith, Fain & Craft, Jeff Bell.

Perhaps there's something to the idea that the people who helped shaped the character's voice have the best grasp on her. I'd say for Faith, those two people are Joss Whedon and Doug Petrie. And Brian K Vaughan seems immediately dialed in to Faith's voice.

I had noticed this, but it's surprising that a new BtVS writer like Brian K Vaughan or Drew Goddard (Dirty Girls) can write Faith perfectly, when a seasoned writer like J.E. had trouble capturing her voice. I just hope it improves over the course of the next few issues. Or Joss contributes a couple of lines to her (considering he hasn't written for Faith all season). Doug Petrie is in my opinion the best at writing Faith (and I'm hoping he has an opportunity to write for her in Season Nine - if she survives!). The AtS writers wrote Faith very well (perhaps better than the BtVS writers), I think sometimes the character was better suited or adapted to the AtS story.

Jul 4, 2009 12:16:52 GMT -5 dane5by5 said:

Jane Espenson writes Andrew so well, it's uncanny.

Agreed and interesting to note that compared to writing Faith, Jane Espenson has a lot of experience in shaping Andrew's voice. Perhaps that's why after all these years of not writing Andrew, she immediately dials into his voice. She was a major writer of the Trio episodes during Season 6 and of course wrote the Andrew-centric Storyteller of Season 7. So it's no surprise she immediately nails the character.

Then there are writers like Drew Goddard who showed up during Season 7 and just immediately got the characters' voices and Brian K Vaughan who did amazing writing for Faith and Giles in No Future For You.

Jane Espenson and Joss Whedon seemed to have the most influence in shaping the Trio, and she ran with the character of Andrew in Season Seven, so it's no surprise she is natural at writing for him, I'm sure he will have some great moments over the next four issues. If anyone was to write the Andrew/Skinless!Warren conflict/drama, it should be J.E.

[ilovewillow]

I got my issue today (well technically yesterday, it's 05:25am here) and I absolutely LOVED IT!! Jane Epsenson's writing was fantastic and really really funny. I loved the lil references to past issues with Xander emphasising how it's good to knock first and such. I still have no clue who Twilight is! I'm also really pleased that Giles and Buffy have finally made up. That was a touching moment. I hope Jane does more writing for S8 cause this issue rocked.
I loved Oz at the end with his infamous ''huh'' response.
Brilliant

[theend]

I really enjoyed this issue too. But I was so sad that Oz was only on the final page Have to wait longer for more Oz

[Giant Michael]

I don't know whether this is a reaction to Predators and Prey (some decent stories, but a really bad move in terms of trying to tell a story which was already sagging under the weight of its own plot; at it's best Buffy skips along at a rate of knots, and for the past six months it's been... casually meandering) more than the issue itself, but this one is amongst my favourites so far. All the gang back together - talking to each other, or at each other, or in the vicinity of each other, about things that are not all Hoodoo McGuffin - and... funny. I've missed funny Buffy.

Magic Jane.

Will be interesting to see how Oz comes across, on page. He has a really odd quality - sort of quiet and taciturn and sarcastic, but optimistic rather than brooding - that I wouldn't know where to start with. 'Huh' was as good a place as any, though! Looking forward to seeing how he's changed, too. And Willow... oh, God, Willow.

Already, I could eat this arc with a spoon, it's so delicious.

MB x

[Tyler Austin "tiewashere"]

I have a question regarding the "Warren plot hole". You know how we were never sure if it was really Joyce or The First that came to Buffy in Conversations with Dead People? Was it ever said if Warren was The First or not? I don't remember.

[wenxina]

Jul 5, 2009 21:20:27 GMT -5 Tyler Austin "tiewashere" said:

I have a question regarding the "Warren plot hole". You know how we were never sure if it was really Joyce or The First that came to Buffy in Conversations with Dead People? Was it ever said if Warren was The First or not? I don't remember.

If you're referring to S7, then yes, since it was explicitly stated and shown that the Warren that appeared to Andrew could only be seen by Andrew, and was also incorporeal.
If you're referring to the appearance in "Retreat Pt. 1" then no.

[vampmogs]

Yeah it was confirmed to be the First Besides it had to been, he had skin and Jonathon couldn't see him.

I agree with others who say that individually the issues in Predators and Prey weren't all that bad. I actually don’t hate Safe like a lot of people, it’s nowhere near the best story in Btvs or in s8 but I didn’t think it was horrible. I disliked Harmonic Divergence more actually, I think that has to be my least favourite issue of the season. I don’t think the individual issues were fantastic but they basically all left me feeling pretty satisfied after I read them. It just didn’t work as an “arc.” It didn’t link up and feel cohesive so you were left with five pretty random storylines. It was also probably a mistake to do these five issues all together, as for five months they took a detour from the main plot (though obviously there were connections) and that is too long. Especially when it came after, “After These Messages…” which also detoured.

I still haven’t got a copy of Issue #26.. It is KILLING me!!

[Rebecca]

Wow, this really took me a long time to join in! Sorry for my lateness!

Initial impressions
The pacing was definitely great, this is probably my favorite issue since TLWH. The voices were immensely better than previous issues, thank Espenson for that.

Wicca-Slayers? Why had that duality never occur to me before? I know they had wiccas in TLWH, but I didn’t remember them being Wicca-slash-slayers. Caught me off-guard, very interesting.

Giles and Buffy moment!!! FINALLY! Only took a year and a half since I started reading. Way too short, even with the submarine scene, but I think we’ll see more soon.

Things I liked

• Use of “ridonkulous”
  
• Call to “real world” figure Keith Olbermann
  
• Bone anatomy humor
  
• Knock first… call back to WATG issue 1
  
• Continued focus on Willow misusing her power, gradual progression to dark, even Giles noticed.
  
• Giles: “I’d ask for an explanation and then express skepticism, demand to be convinced… but I don’t think we have the time.”
  
• Oz: “Huh.” Made my day, really
  

Things I didn’t care for

• Not enough Satsu, or Xander
  
• Honestly—Warren and Amy. They’re overused at this point, bringing very little to the story. I had hoped there was more between Andrew and Warren, but it was mostly a recap, very little progression there.

Overall impression
Willow’s magic is not only posing a threat to the group in the long term by pushing her to the dark, but it was drawing Twilight in. The entirety of their defenses was her magic, and got lots of slayers killed. All Buffy could do was watch and wish she were fighting. I can definitely see her work toward recanting the scythe spell from Chosen, in the near future.

Giles is no longer on my list for Twilight. He was just so in-character this issue, I can no longer attribute his change in character we’ve seen so far in S8 to his being Twilight. I also noticed that he’s seen as a moral authority, but when Buffy’s question if they are doing the right thing—if they are evil—went unanswered when interrupted by Faith. I hope to see this delved into this arc, most likely issue #28 where we see Giles overlooking meditating Buffy and Willow.

[AndrewCrossett]

Jul 6, 2009 13:36:20 GMT -5 Rebecca said:

Wicca-Slayers? Why had that duality never occur to me before? I know they had wiccas in TLWH, but I didn’t remember them being Wicca-slash-slayers. Caught me off-guard, very interesting.

Their training regimen must be brutal. I'm guessing most of them were already experienced in witchcraft before being called as Slayers?

Anyway, I wouldn't want to get on the bad side of a Slayer/Wiccan.

(It still makes me laugh to see "Wiccans" depicted like this.)

Jul 6, 2009 13:36:20 GMT -5 Rebecca said:

Giles and Buffy moment!!! FINALLY! Only took a year and a half since I started reading. Way too short, even with the submarine scene, but I think we’ll see more soon.

I'm sure he'll be making his concerns known to Passive Zen Buffy at some point before the end of this arc.

Jul 6, 2009 13:36:20 GMT -5 Rebecca said:

[/li][li]Knock first… call back to WATG issue 1[/quote]

I have a feeling that scene will acquire a double meaning that will become clearer shortly. We're all thinking Buffy & Satsu there, but I'll bet Xander and Dawn were aiming those comments at Willow, who had just barged in on the two of them.

Jul 6, 2009 13:36:20 GMT -5 Rebecca said:

[/li][li]Not enough Satsu, or Xander[/quote]

There can never be enough Satsu to suit me. (Oh, she is sooooo doomed.)

I'm thinking we're gonna get a lot more on Xander coming up.

Jul 6, 2009 13:36:20 GMT -5 Rebecca said:

[/li][li]Honestly—Warren and Amy. They’re overused at this point, bringing very little to the story. I had hoped there was more between Andrew and Warren, but it was mostly a recap, very little progression there.[/quote]

There was a time when I hoped Amy would wake up, get a grip, and switch sides, but I don't think that's going to happen now and frankly... I don't want it to. My lingering fondness for pre-rat Amy was coloring my opinions, but that girl is obviously gone now.

Jul 6, 2009 13:36:20 GMT -5 Rebecca said:

Overall impression
Willow’s magic is not only posing a threat to the group in the long term by pushing her to the dark, but it was drawing Twilight in. The entirety of their defenses was her magic, and got lots of slayers killed. All Buffy could do was watch and wish she were fighting. I can definitely see her work toward recanting the scythe spell from Chosen, in the near future.

One scenario I can envision for the climax of the season: Twilight comes to rely too much on magic that targets Slayers specifically. The Slayers are up against the wall until Buffy and Willow undo the Scythe spell. Suddenly, Twilight's anti-Slayer mojo is useless... and the de-powered Slayers proceed to kick his ass into the middle of next Wednesday, discovering that their power comes from themselves, and not from a spell or a magic prop.

Jul 6, 2009 13:36:20 GMT -5 Rebecca said:

Giles is no longer on my list for Twilight. He was just so in-character this issue, I can no longer attribute his change in character we’ve seen so far in S8 to his being Twilight.

I'm convinced Twilight's identity is not something we can figure out just by running down a list... it's not "*** is Twilight." It's going to be some variation of a familiar character that we can't forsee... a future version, an alternate reality version, etc.

[hitnrun017]

Jul 6, 2009 15:27:00 GMT -5 AndrewCrossett said:

I have a feeling that scene will acquire a double meaning that will become clearer shortly. We're all thinking Buffy & Satsu there, but I'll bet Xander and Dawn were aiming those comments at Willow, who had just barged in on the two of them.

Oh man. That is very interesting, never even crossed my mind. That makes a lot of sense too. Both have the cover next issue, something has got to happen now.

[Paul]

Jul 6, 2009 15:27:00 GMT -5 AndrewCrossett said:

I'm convinced Twilight's identity is not something we can figure out just by running down a list... it's not "*** is Twilight." It's going to be some variation of a familiar character that we can't forsee... a future version, an alternate reality version, etc.

Agreed. I've been saying for ages now that I think it's some kind of twisted male doppelganger of Buffy herself.

[Emmie]

Jul 6, 2009 13:36:20 GMT -5 Rebecca said:

Things I didn’t care for

• Not enough Satsu, or Xander
  
• Honestly—Warren and Amy. They’re overused at this point, bringing very little to the story. I had hoped there was more between Andrew and Warren, but it was mostly a recap, very little progression there.

Well, they had a lot going on and Satsu did get to express an important question. I definitely agree there wasn't enough Xander. But then again, Satsu got way more dialogue/face time then Kennedy did - at least, what she said was important versus Kennedy just being Willow's girlfriend and jealous, versus a Slayer in her own right.

I honestly don't think Warren is overused at this point. I used to think so but I can now see why having Warren around will be important to bringing darkness and hard choices. But now that we have Willow going back down this path and Andrew being deliberately "tricked" by Warren and Amy, I'm getting the sense that some huge is going to happen and it'll come from them. I'm sensing some very real badness in the future for Andrew and Willow. Warren is the guilt/rage button for Willow, Warren is the guilt/ temptation button for Andrew. Amy's kinda like his wacky sidekick who gets really useful because she fits in seamlessly with the magic aspect of the season.