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Post by Tyler Austin "tiewashere" on Jul 6, 2009 17:00:09 GMT -5
I have to say, with all this talk of Xander and Dawn...I sort of like that relationship.  |
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Skeptic
Initiative Soldier
[Mo0:24]
Posts: 344
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Post by Skeptic on Jul 6, 2009 17:29:34 GMT -5
I'm SO cranky. I went by the comic shop and they are out of the issue. They won't get more in until next week. Oh god... I waited so long. Surely I can wait another week? Can't I?  I really don't know if I can. I'm trying not to read this thread but I'm dying to, because I want to know what happens and talk about it! Argh. |
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Post by Rebecca on Jul 6, 2009 17:56:15 GMT -5
Things I didn’t care for- Not enough Satsu, or Xander
- Honestly—Warren and Amy. They’re overused at this point, bringing very little to the story. I had hoped there was more between Andrew and Warren, but it was mostly a recap, very little progression there.
Well, they had a lot going on and Satsu did get to express an important question. I definitely agree there wasn't enough Xander. But then again, Satsu got way more dialogue/face time then Kennedy did - at least, what she said was important versus Kennedy just being Willow's girlfriend and jealous, versus a Slayer in her own right. I honestly don't think Warren is overused at this point. I used to think so but I can now see why having Warren around will be important to bringing darkness and hard choices. But now that we have Willow going back down this path and Andrew being deliberately "tricked" by Warren and Amy, I'm getting the sense that some huge is going to happen and it'll come from them. I'm sensing some very real badness in the future for Andrew and Willow. Warren is the guilt/rage button for Willow, Warren is the guilt/ temptation button for Andrew. Amy's kinda like his wacky sidekick who gets really useful because she fits in seamlessly with the magic aspect of the season. It might be the plot hole talking through me, but he's been a baddie for the past three seasons. I'm tired of his face (or lack thereof). Amy's been around more or less since S1. They're old. While I completely agree that Warren has an implicit relationship with both Andrew and Willow, and I completely agree with your real badness haunch for both of them, I just wish that Amy/Warren could have been the baddies for the first arc making the way for the seasonal baddie (Twilight) instead of having a central role in the impetus behind that character development for Willow and Andrew. It's probably just a personal thing. But more to the point, what I was trying to say was that the way in which the Andrew/Warren scene was written didn't bring much to this particular issue. Looking across the panels with Warren and Andrew, it was S7 all over again, even using the the meadow scene with the Trio straight from Storyteller. It was more: "This is what happened, and here's Andrew rejecting it again" than some good development toward that badness. Warren didn't even try to trick him very well. While it may turn out to be a poor attempt before the big bang, I don't think it was very useful in moving the story forward that much. As for Kennedy vs. Satsu... I'll take more Satsu over Kennedy anyday. |
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Post by Wyndam on Jul 6, 2009 18:03:46 GMT -5
While I was initially disappointed by Warren's return, I'm quite happy with what he has done so far this season. He was always one of my favorite Buffy baddies, and I am actually happy he's back now.
He's like Buffy's Joker now. I hope he's around for a while longer.
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Post by wenxina on Jul 6, 2009 18:06:49 GMT -5
Well, it moved Andrew's story along... and that may be important, since in retrospect, Andrew's loyalties have been called into question before, even in S8 itself. So it may be important along the way.
I mean, I made the comment a while ago (on Whedonesque, I think), that the brevity of the Buffy/Giles reunion is actually not surprising, given that she had already forgiven Giles by the end of #23, when she tells Andrew, and I'm paraphrasing here, that he should get used to screwing up for the right reasons since he's one of the family now. It implies that she understands that her "family" screws up, but usually for the best intentions at heart. Also, it's fitting, given that the reason Giles shielded her from the whole Gigi affair was because he didn't want her to deal with the rogue Slayer. Having just kinda dealt with Simone and Co. (aka Rogue Slayers Inc.), she may have realized why... the self-doubt that Twilight planted in her... it's gnawing away at her certainty... which culminates in her asking Giles is they're the good guys anymore... underscoring the last lines of "Harmonic Divergence" when Buffy says something to the effect of "[The public] must know that [the Slayers are] the white hats, right?"
Right, long tangent, but I think it addresses one of your comments earlier too. The point is, S8 is actually pretty damn layered, and even if things are apparent yet, they may be soon. Or... it's a case of the "Buffy won't pick you" line in S7... the payoff was weak sauce, if it was even a payoff (i.e. Buffy saying that she would be willing to sacrifice Dawn if she had to this time around).
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Post by Emmie on Jul 6, 2009 18:19:54 GMT -5
It might be the plot hole talking through me, but he's been a baddie for the past three seasons. I'm tired of his face (or lack thereof). Amy's been around more or less since S1. They're old. While I completely agree that Warren has an implicit relationship with both Andrew and Willow, and I completely agree with your real badness haunch for both of them, I just wish that Amy/Warren could have been the baddies for the first arc making the way for the seasonal baddie (Twilight) instead of having a central role in the impetus behind that character development for Willow and Andrew. It's probably just a personal thing. Well, Warren has only been a baddie for Season 6 imo. It was the First in Season 7. And he wasn't a baddie in Season 5. Heck, he didn't really become a baddie til the middle of Season 6 during Dead Things. That's when he truly became a villain - at Katrina's death. And considering his humanity, it makes sense in a way that he's still around. He's kinda like Ethan Rayne in that respect - he's defeat isn't easily acquired. Which is ironic when we consider Ethan was killed in LWH (or was he?) But more to the point, what I was trying to say was that the way in which the Andrew/Warren scene was written didn't bring much to this particular issue. Looking across the panels with Warren and Andrew, it was S7 all over again, even using the the meadow scene with the Trio straight from Storyteller. It was more: "This is what happened, and here's Andrew rejecting it again" than some good development toward that badness. Warren didn't even try to trick him very well. While it may turn out to be a poor attempt before the big bang, I don't think it was very useful in moving the story forward that much. I rather think it does. We had no idea that Warren had any interest in Andrew at all. And if he's pursuing and trying to turn Andrew (and doing a bad job of it), then it presumably means that Andrew is of interest to Twilight also. This didn't seem solely like a personal vendetta. It was a plan to turn Andrew that got botched. I think it's a hint of more things to come. Foreshadowing of bigger events that we'd have no expectations of without Warren showing this interest in Andrew. How can it be Season 7 all over again when that wasn't Warren in Season 7 but the First? As for Kennedy vs. Satsu... I'll take more Satsu over Kennedy anyday. Aw Kennedy has gotten way more awesome in the comics imo than she was in the show. While I was initially disappointed by Warren's return, I'm quite happy with what he has done so far this season. He was always one of my favorite Buffy baddies, and I am actually happy he's back now. He's like Buffy's Joker now. I hope he's around for a while longer. Yeah, me too! Conversely, I was annoyed at first because I didn't like Warren all that much in the show actually. But I love how it's made so clear that he's a baddie now. And interesting to view him as Buffy's joker or perhaps even Willow's joker. It makes sense how a human villain is Buffy's kryptonite - she can't kill him or contain him. Just like the Rogue Slayers are her kryptonite - the unslayable villain. And really that's what Season 8 is all about - unslayable villains - humanity, human villains like Warren and Amy, Rogue Slayers, Twilight who's nigh impossible to defeat. |
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Post by Rebecca on Jul 6, 2009 18:25:37 GMT -5
Well, it moved Andrew's story along... and that may be important, since in retrospect, Andrew's loyalties have been called into question before, even in S8 itself. So it may be important along the way. I know it's layered, wenxina, of course--in this medium especially--little things can be more meaningful in retrospect. But with that in mind, I didn't find the scene itself to progress Andrew's story along at all. It was just a recap. His loyalties were called into question in #23, it's been done. That was the best singular case within itself to explore Andrew's loyalties to Buffy & Co., and it was done wanting nothing. When Warren showed up, I was more wondering if he was actually hurt/strayed from Twilight and Amy/etc more than questioning Andrew's loyalties. Andrew has historically looked back on his days with the Trio with disdain, I had zero inkling that he would join up with the baddies with an impetus like Warren hurt and bleeding. It would take a lot more than that, and I knew it prior to the scene. How can it be Season 7 all over again when that wasn't Warren in Season 7 but the First? It was S7 all over again with Andrew recanting his time with Warren, even using the exact scene from Storyteller. As for the three season thing, I meant S6, 7, and 8. That's three seasons, right? One thing I didn't think about was the inference that Twilight has an interest in Andrew. I'm not completely sure of that yet, it is apparent that Warren does, but what his or possibly Twilight's intentions with him are unclear. If it is simply to spread chaos and break Buffy's ranks, they could target anyone. There must be something Andrew can offer Warren's cause, if not for Twilight himself. |
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Post by Emmie on Jul 6, 2009 18:29:34 GMT -5
Andrew's loyalties were called into question in one way. Now they're being called into question in another way. That's more a consistent theme rather than a repetitive waste of story. And it significantly links Simone to Warren, more suggestions that Simone is perhaps working with Twilight...
I don't think the scene was supposed to make us wonder if Andrew would switch sides. I think we all knew Andrew wouldn't. But what it did was show us that Andrew is apparently important to the Big Bad's side. He's a person of interest. Perhaps more than just someone Warren wants to play with.
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Post by Rebecca on Jul 6, 2009 18:33:40 GMT -5
Andrew's loyalties were called into question in one way. Now they're being called into question in another way. That's more a consistent theme rather than a repetitive waste of story. And it significantly links Simone to Warren, more suggestions that Simone is perhaps working with Twilight... I don't think the scene was supposed to make us wonder if Andrew would switch sides. I think we all knew Andrew wouldn't. But what it did was show us that Andrew is apparently important to the Big Bad's side. He's a person of interest. Perhaps more than just someone Warren wants to play with. I take the bolded statement above to mean that his loyalties were not in fact called into question here. If Andrew's loyalties were never called into question here, how could they be called into question another way now? Please explain the connection between Simone and Warren/Twilight, I didn't catch that. |
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Post by Emmie on Jul 6, 2009 18:42:31 GMT -5
Called into question meaning that it was a test, simply that. The fact that you and I (and I assume others) knew he would resist just shows that #23 solidified his loyalties to Buffy. Perhaps it's clearer to say that his loyalties were called into question in #23, then tested again and proven by his greatest temptation of loyalties - Warren.
As for Simone and Warren & Twilight, there's speculation that Simone is perhaps working with Twilight. She continues to undermine the Slayer image with her rampant criminal acts, making all Slayers look like terrorists. There just seem to be parallels in that both Warren and Simone have a vested interest in Andrew. And Simone would be a perfect and very useful recruit for Twilight to have. All she cares about is being top dog, and she doesn't seem all that bright. I'm sure Twilight could easily manipulate her.
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Post by AndrewCrossett on Jul 6, 2009 21:18:30 GMT -5
I still wonder if Twilight will try to use Riley to turn Xander, like Warren was apparently trying to turn Andrew. Xander admired Riley, and (unlike with Andrew and Warren), Xan doesn't know that Riley is an enemy (if in fact he is).
The "unexpected betrayal" might be Xander betraying Buffy... perhaps unknowingly, having been manipulated and misinformed by Riley, or perhaps thinking he's doing it "for her own good."
But even then, it would remain an open question where Riley's true loyalties lie. Such a situation would put him in an excellent position to double-cross Twilight with devastating effect.
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Post by Wyndam on Jul 6, 2009 21:28:40 GMT -5
Xander betraying Buffy would be the biggest mistake this series could make, imo. I am fine if Twilight is some weird alternate universe, future Xander or whatever, but current Xander should never betray Buffy. He is the epitome of loyal, and to see that wasted would be tragic for the story. I just don't see any scenario where Xander betraying Buffy could work, given his history with her.
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Post by wenxina on Jul 6, 2009 21:36:29 GMT -5
Considering his history with her, Xander may just be the one to do it. He has in the past concealed information from her, if not downright lied to her face when he thought it was for the greater good. "Kick his ass!" anyone? Not arguing that Xander is Twilight, but rather, if there was someone who would betray Buffy if he thought it was in his best interest, I can see a case being made for Xander.
Also... it would be the most unexpected, considering how close he is to her right now. Willow's a no-go, considering Buffy point blank asked her on the spot when she heard about the betrayal. Not quite unexpected there.
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Post by Wyndam on Jul 6, 2009 21:41:17 GMT -5
"Kick his ass!" was almost 7 years ago in the 'verse though. Their relationship has strengthened ten fold since then, and most of Xander's issues with Buffy in the past have been boyfriend related (Angel, Buffy leaving Sunnydale because of Angel, Buffy forcing Riley to leave, Spike). It was pretty rare for him to go against her or question her when it came to more tactical matters (except when he lost his eye, but let's not discuss that episode). While his betrayal would definitely be the most unexpected, I just don't think any reason he could give for doing it would be believable enough, especially when they have been working so well together so far in Season 8.
As long as Buffy doesn't start dating someone evil, she and Xander shouldn't have any issues.
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Post by AndrewCrossett on Jul 6, 2009 21:41:35 GMT -5
If Xander betrays her, it will be either unknowingly and unintentionally, or honestly believing it's in her best interests. I don't think he would deliberately turn against Buffy -- not based on anything we've seen so far.
And when he realizes he's betrayed her, he'll do anything to make it right... including sacrificing his own life.
(Q: If Twilight turns out to be a future version of Xander, could present!Xander kill Twilight by killing himself? If that were the case, though, I don't know that Twilight would have been so free with lobbing missiles in present!Xander's general direction.)
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Post by wenxina on Jul 6, 2009 21:49:30 GMT -5
Like AndrewCrossett (dude... we need a nickname for you!) said, Xander wouldn't intentionally do it unless he thought that it'd be in her best interest. While one aspect of his previous disagreements has been about her lovers, or his own, it has always come down to him thinking that her judgment was clouded. Thus, "Kick his ass!" may very well still apply, even if not in that whole "I hate hot broody vampires" way. But... I'm pretty much resigned to really not caring who Twilight really is until the mask comes off. For now... perfectly content analyzing what's present than speculating about the future. |
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Post by Emmie on Jul 6, 2009 22:26:58 GMT -5
A/C? Drewizzle?
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Post by Rebecca on Jul 6, 2009 22:27:18 GMT -5
If Xander did betray Buffy, it truly would be the closest, the most unexpected.
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Post by wenxina on Jul 6, 2009 22:38:07 GMT -5
Aye-cee? Nah... sounds too close to Icy. |
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Post by Emmie on Jul 6, 2009 22:50:17 GMT -5
Hey, if you shoot down an idea you have to offer up another one.  |
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