Skeptic
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Post by Skeptic on May 25, 2009 13:21:38 GMT -5
Dawn never stopped being the key, AFAIK, just the door she unlocks was closed by Buffy. So yeah, she falls into that category.
Remember that girl from early S7, that Xander helped because her boyfriend had been cursed by Anya and turned into a giant worm? Yeah, that's about as close as Xander has come. It's unlikely that Xander will ever meet a girl that's just got average girl life. He's always going to meet girls who are supernatural in some way, or girls who have supernatural in their lives somehow. I think maybe he's starting to feel the same loneliness and isolation that Buffy feels.
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Post by AndrewCrossett on May 25, 2009 13:55:39 GMT -5
Dawn never stopped being the key, AFAIK, just the door she unlocks was closed by Buffy. So yeah, she falls into that category. I think she unlocks a lot more than just that one door. She might not think she does, but then again she didn't know she was the Key in the first place until someone told her, so how would she know? I think her "Keyness" will be a story element again... maybe not until the very end of season 8, and maybe not until season 9.
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Mathieu
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Post by Mathieu on May 25, 2009 14:12:00 GMT -5
Dawn never stopped being the key, AFAIK, just the door she unlocks was closed by Buffy. So yeah, she falls into that category. I think she unlocks a lot more than just that one door. She might not think she does, but then again she didn't know she was the Key in the first place until someone told her, so how would she know? I think her "Keyness" will be a story element again... maybe not until the very end of season 8, and maybe not until season 9. I really want her "keyness" to be used again. It would be the best way to bring her back in the game and make her interesting again.
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Nicholas
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Post by Nicholas on May 25, 2009 15:39:09 GMT -5
I don't really know if Dawn still really opens anything anymore, or at least she will be dead by the time she ever could, but I don't think her "keyness" is really over.
What happens to her when she dies? Does she continue to exist as a ball of energy?
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Skeptic
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Post by Skeptic on May 25, 2009 19:22:01 GMT -5
I guess she would (re: ball of energy). But that'd likely mean that she'd have no conscience, no memory. It's again just a ball of energy.
Anyway, I kind of imagine the key-ness will come into play again somehow. Didn't Dawn open one of the gates to the worst hell dimension? And didn't the slayer in the apocalyptic battle in Fray get sucked into a hell dimension fighting a demon army?
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BenTaylor3907
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Post by BenTaylor3907 on May 25, 2009 19:56:15 GMT -5
And didn't the slayer in the apocalyptic battle in Fray get sucked into a hell dimension fighting a demon army? SNAP. CRACKLE. POP. I think you're on to something!
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Post by AndrewCrossett on May 25, 2009 20:45:00 GMT -5
I think Dawn's keyness will be important in the final battle... maybe helping to defeat the enemy, and maybe helping to rescue Buffy from Hell.
Dawn's true form is a ball of green energy, but souls in the Buffyverse are balls of green energy too. The Key is just a soul with special abilities, stuck into a body constructed from Buffy's DNA somehow.
The Key existed at least since the 12th century, when the Order of Dagon started being responsible for protecting her, so her existence had nothing to do with Glory in particular... the monks only put her into Dawn's body as a way of hiding her from Glory.
So, I think Key!Dawn has a long-term significance that wasn't ended or changed at all by the events of season 5. It/she still has a part to play.
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Post by CowboyGuy on May 25, 2009 22:07:13 GMT -5
The dying monk informed Buffy that Dawn was completely human: MONK No. For centuries it had no form at all. My brethren, its only keepers. Then the abomination found us. We had to hide the Key, gave it form, molded it flesh... made it human and sent it to you.
Buffy stares at him in shock as the realization sinks in.
.......
BUFFY I didn't ask for this! I don't even know... what is she?
MONK Human... now human. And helpless. Please... she's an innocent in this. She needs you.Later the gang found that it was her blood that would act as the conduit to opening the dimensional gateway, which is odd since Dawn shares Buffy's blood. Thus making anything about The Key in human form a moot story element, because anything Dawn can do, Buffy can do better per se. Evidenced by Buffy effectively closing the portal without help from anyone, including Dawn. Now, if Dawn were somehow changed back into a ball of energy maybe things would be different. Or somehow Joss fanwanks some sort of dumb "new" power for her. I would be against anything like that happening. As far as we know/have been shown Dawn is 100% human and will age and die. She isn't immortal anymore, and she isn't energy anymore either for that matter. Didn't Dawn open one of the gates to the worst hell dimension? She opened ALL the "doors", causing all dimensions to bleed into one another creating hell on earth until the dimensional rift was closed (by the Buff).
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Post by AndrewCrossett on May 25, 2009 22:53:08 GMT -5
My take on it is that the Key existed long before Dawn and will exist long after her. In that respect, though, it may be no different than any human soul.
I never quite understood WHY Buffy had the power to close Glory's portal. As I understood it, only Dawn's body was taken from Buffy's blood...it was a one-way transaction. When, and how, did Buffy acquire any aspect of Dawn's "keyness"?
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BlueJay
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Post by BlueJay on May 26, 2009 16:57:11 GMT -5
It's a plot hole, but it's overlooked because Buffy's death in "The Gift" is one of the most powerful scenes in the series.
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Post by wenxina on May 26, 2009 17:43:34 GMT -5
Actually, it's not necessarily a plot hole. Here's why: The Key is only said to open gates to dimensions; there's never any indication as to whether it has the power to close them. In fact, it's hinted that the closing of the dimensional portals is only possible via dissipation of energy. In the case of its new form, it's when the blood stops flowing (i.e. death). The reason why Doc made shallow cuts was to prolong the bleeding (apparently Dawn is a hemophiliac with no clotting abilities... not really, but I'm musing here, since she clearly survived her self-inflicted cutting episode), and keep the dimensional walls down longer.
Since Buffy and Dawn apparently share the same blood, it would stand to reason that Buffy's blood could close the gates, as long as it stopped flowing. So yeah, never had a problem with it.
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Post by Rebecca on May 26, 2009 20:37:22 GMT -5
The problem I have is this logical hole:
Dawn's blood = Key Dawn's blood = Buffy's blood Buffy's blood = Key??
It could have been that it needed death to close the lock, but then it could have been anyone, not just Buffy.
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Post by AndrewCrossett on May 26, 2009 21:09:30 GMT -5
Actually, it's not necessarily a plot hole. Here's why: The Key is only said to open gates to dimensions; there's never any indication as to whether it has the power to close them. In fact, it's hinted that the closing of the dimensional portals is only possible via dissipation of energy. In the case of its new form, it's when the blood stops flowing (i.e. death). The reason why Doc made shallow cuts was to prolong the bleeding (apparently Dawn is a hemophiliac with no clotting abilities... not really, but I'm musing here, since she clearly survived her self-inflicted cutting episode), and keep the dimensional walls down longer. Since Buffy and Dawn apparently share the same blood, it would stand to reason that Buffy's blood could close the gates, as long as it stopped flowing. So yeah, never had a problem with it. Hmmm. That actually matches up almost perfectly with a fanfic I wrote about this topic.
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Post by wenxina on May 26, 2009 21:28:45 GMT -5
The problem I have is this logical hole: Dawn's blood = Key Dawn's blood = Buffy's blood Buffy's blood = Key?? It could have been that it needed death to close the lock, but then it could have been anyone, not just Buffy. I think it goes along the lines of: Dawn=Key Dawn's blood=Buffy's blood (blood is merely the means through which the energy is released) So Buffy's blood may not be able to open the portals, but since it's intrinsically the same as Dawn's, it can close portals. Heck, the lack of energy may actually expedite the closure.
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Post by Rebecca on May 27, 2009 12:41:47 GMT -5
Alright that makes sense. I guess you could say Buffy's Blood encapsulated the key energy within Dawn. I like the little note about Buffy's lack of key energy to close the portal... though I'm still sticking to the "anyone could have closed the portal" theory, just that it was Buffy's fate to do the deed.
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Skeptic
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Post by Skeptic on May 27, 2009 15:43:48 GMT -5
wenxina, great explanation, and it helps me make sense of it all. I'm still at a complete loss as to how "the monks made her outta me", or how Buffy even knew that, but I guess that's one of those things we'll just have to buy at face value and move on.
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Mathieu
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Post by Mathieu on May 27, 2009 15:55:59 GMT -5
The problem I have is this logical hole: Dawn's blood = Key Dawn's blood = Buffy's blood Buffy's blood = Key?? It could have been that it needed death to close the lock, but then it could have been anyone, not just Buffy. I think it goes along the lines of: Dawn=Key Dawn's blood=Buffy's blood (blood is merely the means through which the energy is released) So Buffy's blood may not be able to open the portals, but since it's intrinsically the same as Dawn's, it can close portals. Heck, the lack of energy may actually expedite the closure. It's a little far fetched but let's say your theory actually works ;-)
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Post by wenxina on May 27, 2009 17:15:27 GMT -5
More far-fetched than vampires and an itty-bitty girl that makes them cry? One of the many reasons I love the show, watching Buffy beat on people way bigger than her.
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Post by AndrewCrossett on May 27, 2009 21:49:32 GMT -5
I have to admit, though... the ending of "The Gift" was so emotionally powerful that it was a long time before I even thought to consider "hey, wait a minute... how does this work exactly?"
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Paul
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Post by Paul on May 27, 2009 21:52:44 GMT -5
I have to admit, though... the ending of "The Gift" was so emotionally powerful that it was a long time before I even thought to consider "hey, wait a minute... how does this work exactly?" Lol, that's so true. None of the Buffyverse metaphysics make ANY sense but we don't care because they're so irrelevant.
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