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Post by AndrewCrossett on Sept 4, 2009 11:28:01 GMT -5
I don't think Buffy needs to talk to Satsu, I think she needs to sit down and think. She did that in "The Weight of the World", and she did it again in S7 during her little stint away from the role of leader. Too late for that, unfortunately. I wasn't serious about lesbianism being a literal source of power, like spinach to Popeye. But Joss does seem to be using it as a metaphor for strength this season. We've been told Satsu has a significant role to play and that the story of her relationship with Buffy isn't over. I'm beginning to suspect we may see Satsu and Kennedy stage a coup after this upcoming disaster, and take Buffy's surviving Slayers away from her.
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Post by buffybot38 on Sept 4, 2009 11:45:37 GMT -5
Since Issue 1 i have been so happy with S8 but after Anywhere But Here the storys went down and it began to rely too much on Willow and her magic (ITS GETTING BOREING) i mean since season 6 all the storys seem to come back to willow and her dark self. is it me or does anyone else think this Arc will just come back to willow and something about HER and magics (peope r gonna HATE me now but i kinda wish willow will hurry up and DIE now cause she is makeing everything boring)
As for the Cat i have a absurb theory TARA TARA she cud have come bck to look after willow in the form of Miss Kittyfantastico
Or it was just like other people have said an agent of Twilight in disguse
and Dawn and Xander I HATE JOSS Xander and Buffy are meant to be together but maybe Joss is hinting that one of the two will die (dawn Theory what if joss is going to kill off dawn which sends buffy comatose and this is what wipes out the slayer line because buffy cant fight anymore
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Post by wytchcroft on Sept 4, 2009 11:58:43 GMT -5
I wasn't serious about lesbianism being a literal source of power, like spinach to Popeye. But Joss does seem to be using it as a metaphor for strength this season. Joss used to joke in the early days of BTVS, when quizzed about the title, "If I had called it Buffy The Lesbian Separatist' I wouldn't have a show." Similarly he used to say about the content of the show - "I could have presented it as a lecture; Buffy the Lesbian Separatist and made it dry with a slideshow... but hey..." The Giles flashcard thing is kind've an in-joke to that. I think the quote is in the Topping book somewhere still.
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Post by Emmie on Sept 4, 2009 12:57:15 GMT -5
I wasn't serious about lesbianism being a literal source of power, like spinach to Popeye. But Joss does seem to be using it as a metaphor for strength this season. I figured that. But some people might have missed the ironic tone.
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Paul
Ensouled Vampire
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Post by Paul on Sept 4, 2009 14:34:41 GMT -5
Okay, finally got this issue so now I can join in the conversation. Regarding the Dawn/Xander pairing, I have no problem with it. I found it a little gross at first, because of the perceived sibling thing, but after a year or so to mull it over (this has been a long time coming) I'm fine with it. Part of what changed my mind was Dexter; in season 2 of that show, Debra developed a father/daughter relationship with Lundy. However, across the season, their relationship evolved and became romantic. In theory, that sounds gross but it was actually really natural and touching. Also, since Dawn's never really had a strong father figure in her life, it makes sense that she might gravitate towards an older guy. I can relate to that. I think they're pretty sweet tbh, and as the often-ignored Scoobies, they kind of deserve each other. It'll be interesting to see how things go, especially with the sudden increase in Banderness. The rest of the issue was great, I thought. Faith's line "It got to me what we had to do. What I had to do." reads very natural when you remember the scene in "NFFY" where she had to slay vampire children. And it's always nice to see her and Buffy getting along. The scene with Xander and Buffy in the meadow was tragically romantic. And Willow got some brilliant development, very interesting to see that she considers herself an inhuman force rather than a person. That certainly explains the disconnect fans have felt from her since the start of S8, and parallels Buffy's lifelong fear that being a Slayer makes her less than human. Just brilliant characterization all round, and I definitely get the feeling that the "end of magic" will be happening at the end of this season. Some nitpicks: the Andrew "Storyteller" reveal made me groan a little. It was cute, but combined with the "we are as gods" flashback last issue, it feels a little too much like Jane Espenson is living off her past glories. Also, Leah saying the word "nay". She's Scottish, not f***ing Asgardian!
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Post by AndrewCrossett on Sept 4, 2009 15:09:43 GMT -5
Okay, finally got this issue so now I can join in the conversation. Regarding the Dawn/Xander pairing, I have no problem with it. I found it a little gross at first, because of the perceived sibling thing, but after a year or so to mull it over (this has been a long time coming) I'm fine with it. [...] It'll be interesting to see how things go, especially with the sudden increase in Banderness. I was glad that Buffy took it so well, at least outwardly. I was afraid she was going to flip out on Xander, which would have been horribly inappropriate. He's earned the right to not be treated like he's not good enough for Buffy's sister. As for the Bander thing, I feel sorry for Buffy, but... it's been 10+ years, and Xander was obviously attracted to her from the moment he first saw her. Buffy is a bit, shall we say, tardy in her epiphany. I'm afraid that ship sailed quite a while ago. And Willow got some brilliant development, very interesting to see that she considers herself an inhuman force rather than a person. That certainly explains the disconnect fans have felt from her since the start of S8, and parallels Buffy's lifelong fear that being a Slayer makes her less than human. Not since season 6 have I been as worried about Willow as I am now. Just brilliant characterization all round, and I definitely get the feeling that the "end of magic" will be happening at the end of this season. I've assumed as much since Joss said he intended season 8 as a bridge between "Chosen" and "Fray"... to show how we got from point A to point B. Also, Leah saying the word "nay". She's Scottish, not f***ing Asgardian! But I'm almost sure I've heard Groundskeeper Willie from "The Simpsons" say "nay..." I was just happy to get so much face time for Leah. I'm afraid it was her last hurrah before her red shirt comes due sometime in the next 2 issues.
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Paul
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Post by Paul on Sept 4, 2009 15:38:02 GMT -5
Okay, finally got this issue so now I can join in the conversation. Regarding the Dawn/Xander pairing, I have no problem with it. I found it a little gross at first, because of the perceived sibling thing, but after a year or so to mull it over (this has been a long time coming) I'm fine with it. [...] It'll be interesting to see how things go, especially with the sudden increase in Banderness. I was glad that Buffy took it so well, at least outwardly. I was afraid she was going to flip out on Xander, which would have been horribly inappropriate. He's earned the right to not be treated like he's not good enough for Buffy's sister. As for the Bander thing, I feel sorry for Buffy, but... it's been 10+ years, and Xander was obviously attracted to her from the moment he first saw her. Buffy is a bit, shall we say, tardy in her epiphany. I'm afraid that ship sailed quite a while ago. Yeah, I think that's part of the tragedy; the fact that Buffy's perfect guy has been standing in front of her for 8+ years and she never noticed him. But, my friend made an interesting point over at Whedonesque, about how Dawn is basically a "normal" version of Buffy, so Xander/Dawn is like the natural conclusion to the Xander/Buffy storyline: Not since season 6 have I been as worried about Willow as I am now. Whatever. I'd rather she was interesting than happy. I've assumed as much since Joss said he intended season 8 as a bridge between "Chosen" and "Fray"... to show how we got from point A to point B. Yeah, but people have been throwing around the Days of Future Past theory: that changing the past can create a new timeline. The Buffyverse and the Frayverse can exist as seperate branches of the same timeline. I'm pretty sure that's not going to happen though. Also, Leah saying the word "nay". She's Scottish, not f***ing Asgardian! But I'm almost sure I've heard Groundskeeper Willie from "The Simpsons" say "nay..." I was just happy to get so much face time for Leah. I'm afraid it was her last hurrah before her red shirt comes due sometime in the next 2 issues. Groundskeeper Willow is probably not the best representation of how Scottish people actually speak. Trust me, we don't say "nay", at least not in Glasgow. Leah is like a Scottish Molly. (Except for the fact that I actually like her.)
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Post by AndrewCrossett on Sept 4, 2009 16:07:26 GMT -5
Whatever. I'd rather she was interesting than happy. I never find her more interesting than when she is happy... but then, we already know we have denominational differences on the happy/tragic question. Yeah, but people have been throwing around the Days of Future Past theory: that changing the past can create a new timeline. The Buffyverse and the Frayverse can exist as seperate branches of the same timeline. I'd say they can, but that didn't seem to be what Joss intended when he said that. Groundskeeper Willow is probably not the best representation of how Scottish people actually speak. I know (and was joking), but it is how most Americans assume Scottish people speak. Most of us who have never been to Scotland or seen "Trainspotting" have no idea how Scottish people actually talk among themselves, and probably wouldn't understand it if it was realistic. So how would a real Scottish girl have delivered that line?
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Paul
Ensouled Vampire
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Post by Paul on Sept 4, 2009 16:20:36 GMT -5
I know (and was joking), but it is how most Americans assume Scottish people speak. Most of us who have never been to Scotland or seen "Trainspotting" have no idea how Scottish people actually talk among themselves, and probably wouldn't understand it if it was realistic. So how would a real Scottish girl have delivered that line? I know you were joking. Hmm, let's see... "Ehh, wit the f***?? Where the f*** did that f***ing cat jus' go? Gie me a bottle o' Buckie ye wee bastard or I'll f***ing smash ye!" (She also wouldn't have said "kinda lame" earlier in the issue. That's valley girl talk. Although I use the word lame myself sometimes beause I speak valley girl talk. Totally! ;D)
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Post by AndrewCrossett on Sept 4, 2009 16:35:25 GMT -5
(She also wouldn't have said "kinda lame" earlier in the issue. That's valley girl talk. Although I use the word lame myself sometimes beause I speak valley girl talk. Totally! ;D) Well, remember she's been hanging out with a lot of American girls for at least the past couple of years. She's bound to pick some stuff up. "Kinda lame" is actually something any American under 60 might say.
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Paul
Ensouled Vampire
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Post by Paul on Sept 4, 2009 18:28:29 GMT -5
I just noticed that I typed "Groundskeeper Willow" instead of "Willy". It's as if I'm on this site so much my hands have developed their own predictive text. Freaky.
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Post by AndrewCrossett on Sept 4, 2009 18:49:37 GMT -5
When Willow is having her conversation with Oz, she says "I can't have a baby! Not with what I am! Not with what I have to do."
In the next scene, when Buffy confesses having killed her in the future, Willow doesn't express the slightest surprise at this news, or concern over its implications. She treats the whole topic with an almost eerie cheerfulness... even odder considering the mood she was in just moments before.
So what I'm wondering is... does Willow already know about the future that's in store for her? That she's fated to spend the next 200 years as a dark-eyed madwoman, only to die at her best friend's hand?
Was her reaction to Buffy simply designed to a) spare her from agonizing about it and b) keep her from trying to prevent it?
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Post by wenxina on Sept 4, 2009 20:45:04 GMT -5
I thought the same thing about Willow already knowing what her fate was, but her cheerfulness came from being reassured that she could have a life, and that if she knew what was to come, she could still change it, hence her telling Buffy that Buffy only killed a possible endpoint. Speculative at the moment... but we'll see.
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Post by AndrewCrossett on Sept 4, 2009 21:05:20 GMT -5
I thought the same thing about Willow already knowing what her fate was, but her cheerfulness came from being reassured that she could have a life, and that if she knew what was to come, she could still change it, hence her telling Buffy that Buffy only killed a possible endpoint. Speculative at the moment... but we'll see. Still... you'd think being told something like that would give one just a little bit of pause. The whole sequence was very puzzling. A few encouraging words from Oz gives Will an almost bipolar mood swing, and then the news that your best friend killed you in the future getting less reaction than a foot cramp... At the very least, Willow should have been considering how terrible it must have been for Buffy to have to do that. I mean, that's right up there with killing Angel in season 2 on the list of Most Horrible Things Buffy Has Ever Had To Do.
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Post by NotaViking on Sept 4, 2009 21:33:31 GMT -5
I've got a question that I has going to pose to Scott Allie, but it's rather convoluted and I thought it might be more useful to thrash it out here. There's quite a few things in this current arc that I'm struggling to understand in terms of logic, but this would be the most central one. Ok, so in #26 Willow is using magic to hide the slayers new HQ, but doesn't cover up the magical signal coming from her magic and that of the slayers. Twilight uses this successfully in #26 to track them down and then unsuccessfully in #27. Buffy's response is to suppress the magic in the slayers and stop Willow using any more magic, in an attempt to hide. Personally, I see a significant problem here. What is it that Willow is hiding with magic in #26? It's their physical presence in the world - not as magical beings, but simply as beings. This is very necessary as locating a normal person using magic must be one of the most simple spells. Willow's magic forces Twilight into locating them using a more complex technique - tracking the magic. By giving up magic Buffy neutralises this method, however with no magical defences, Twilight can simply locate them using (can you guess) magic! Preventing this is the reason that Willow is doing magic to hide them in the first place. Amy suddenly discovering the slayers after Twilight's failed effort last issue does sort of make sense - Buffy's completely dropped her guard and made the slayers location obvious to anyone who can do a locator spell. Which, along with weakening her army before a fight, appears to be a truly idiotic idea. Not to mention that she's following the plan of Oz's group and look what happened to them - ripped apart by their enemies. In counter-argument, I can offer a) We're being totally mislead as to what Buffy's plan really is (though that's tricky - given the conversations in this issue almost everyone else would have to be in the dark) or b) Twilight (or Amy) can't do a basic locator spell (hmm) and was in fact relying on the demons in Scotland to visually locate the slayers and Willow was simply hiding the HQ from them. However, in that case, Buffy had left them utterly open to being spotted by the demons in Tibet. This took a heck of a lot less time to think of than it did to write, lol. There's a number of things I've found strange in this arc and I no longer have the faith in the comic to assume they'll be resolved. Quick examples - in #26, Giles and Faith are trapped in bunker with a bunch of demons and then in the next scene they're sitting on a train - no explanation as to how they escaped. Very puzzling and it really took me out of the story. In #27, Oz and Bay are confronted by Monroe as a werewolf. Bay manages to switch to werewolf form instantaneously and attack him. If there was any transforming period, then Monroe would have taken that chance to kill her. Since when could werewolves change in an instant? I'd like to think that this is a hint that all this channelling your power into the earth stuff could actually make you way more powerful, but I wouldn't put any money on it. In #28, Andrew straight away suspects the puppy and then totally ignores it as a suspect. And I also find Willow's sudden 180 degree turn-around after being handed a baby very unconvincing. I'm sure some of my concerns could be written off as minor plot points that didn't deserve more time, but I like my minor plot points to make sense. And the major ones too (but at this point in a post, I'm not going into the whole vampires / public thing). At times these issues affect character development so I'm not sure how to feel about the plot or the characters. Example - in the battle in #26, there's a large number of slayers positioned in front of the castle. Who in their right mind would see this as a sensible way to defend a castle? Those slayers are in a terrible position and what happens to them is hardly surprising. Buffy's in charge, so are we to assume this was her decision and that she is now an incompetent leader? I doubt this was the writer's intention, but that's the sort of thought that occurs to me as I read and I'd never want to have to shut off my brain to enjoy Buffy. I knew if I started, I'd have a hard time stopping. Anyway, I'd enjoy hearing what people make of my original point regarding the logic of hiding without magic. I'll end on a positive note - this issue really cemented my shift from disliking to liking Kennedy .
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Post by wenxina on Sept 4, 2009 21:47:15 GMT -5
At the very least, Willow should have been considering how terrible it must have been for Buffy to have to do that. I mean, that's right up there with killing Angel in season 2 on the list of Most Horrible Things Buffy Has Ever Had To Do. But Willow does consider how bad it must have been for Buffy; she says it in the issue. And she tells Buffy not to sweat it because she's going to make sure that doesn't happen. By saying that Buffy didn't kill her, but merely a possible endpoint character, Willow is distancing herself from her Future Dark Willow persona. And Buffy should therefore not feel as bad.
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Post by AndrewCrossett on Sept 4, 2009 23:04:39 GMT -5
I found Willow's reaction to be outside the bounds of normal.
I guess we'll see. (Eventually.)
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Post by CowboyGuy on Sept 4, 2009 23:19:08 GMT -5
I don't think her reaction was out of the norm. Honestly, provided we lived a life like theirs where strange things happen to you everyday, where there are vampire versions of you living in alternate dimensions...would you really take it to heart if you found out that in the future (which is never certain) there was an uber evil dark, version of you? Was she phased by Vampire Willow years ago? Sure. But did it mean the end of the world? No. Yeah there's a difference because Future Dark Willow, is well, a possible future for Willow. I really don't think that future will happen anymore. I don't think Joss will allow it to play out that way. Otherwise we know the endgame. And that's not fun from both a viewer's aspect, as well as from a writer's aspect because it limits what you can do. I'm a firm believer that the Frayverse is now an alternate dimension. Willow was on an emotional high because of her talk with Oz. If she honestly felt like nothing more than a tool that magick can use, then sure she'd be down in the dumps. I think Oz is one of the only people in the world who can reach Will on that level. Xander is another. Unfortunately, I don't think Buffy is in that category. Oz knows her in ways most don't. He snapped her out of that negative mind frame, and she was probably feeling all maternal and hopeful. So she dismissed Buffy's troubles and at the same time that cemented their relationship! (Buffy/Willow)
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Post by AndrewCrossett on Sept 5, 2009 8:09:06 GMT -5
I don't think her reaction was out of the norm. Honestly, provided we lived a life like theirs where strange things happen to you everyday, where there are vampire versions of you living in alternate dimensions...would you really take it to heart if you found out that in the future (which is never certain) there was an uber evil dark, version of you? Well... yes, really. Especially considering Willow had really, really hoped Dark Willow was permanently under her control. I just think that if your best friend just told you that, 200 years in the future... * She found you there, and * You were evil, and * She killed you... That would give you at least a moment's pause. Would provoke just a hint of surprise, if not dismay. But Willow's reaction was exactly as if she already knew, and already thought through the implications. Maybe she disobeyed Saga Vasuki and peeked when she leaned through that portal? Was she phased by Vampire Willow years ago? Sure. But did it mean the end of the world? No. Yeah there's a difference because Future Dark Willow, is well, a possible future for Willow. I really don't think that future will happen anymore. I don't think Joss will allow it to play out that way. Otherwise we know the endgame. And that's not fun from both a viewer's aspect, as well as from a writer's aspect because it limits what you can do. I'm a firm believer that the Frayverse is now an alternate dimension. Maybe... or maybe the rest of the season will show us why Willow has to do what she does, that it's a necessary part of the plan, that she does it voluntarily, and that it's not motivated by spite or hatred of Buffy. There had to be a reason why FDW couldn't explain herself to Buff. I would of course consider this a tragic outcome for Willow. But, this is Joss. Willow was on an emotional high because of her talk with Oz. If she honestly felt like nothing more than a tool that magick can use, then sure she'd be down in the dumps. I think Oz is one of the only people in the world who can reach Will on that level. Xander is another. Unfortunately, I don't think Buffy is in that category. Oz knows her in ways most don't. He snapped her out of that negative mind frame, and she was probably feeling all maternal and hopeful. So she dismissed Buffy's troubles and at the same time that cemented their relationship! (Buffy/Willow) I'll be very interested to see how Willow performs in the upcoming battle. She told Oz she hadn't been successful in suppressing her own magic, so she should be at just about full mojo. Amy's going to try and goad her into going dark, just as she did in their TLWH fight. This was one hell of a juicy issue... slightly confusing though it might be.
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Post by wenxina on Sept 5, 2009 12:32:07 GMT -5
I really don't think that future will happen anymore. I don't think Joss will allow it to play out that way. Otherwise we know the endgame. And that's not fun from both a viewer's aspect, as well as from a writer's aspect because it limits what you can do. I'm a firm believer that the Frayverse is now an alternate dimension. I don't think Joss particularly cares too much if you know the endgame; it's the process to the endgame that's more interesting. The same can be said about Dollhouse. All who have watched "Epitaph One" now know the "endgame", so to speak. Yes, more can be done after the episode, but the point is, you know where the show is headed. The same can be said about the Buffyverse. We know where it's headed; i.e. the Fray future. And S8 is supposed to be a bridge towards that end. It would be a cop-out to just pass the future that we've already seen as an alternate universe deal, and if that was the idea behind "ToYL", it was executed quite craptastically. I think that Willow is going to lose that positive attitude real soon, or at least embrace her destiny, and do what's needed, and become whatever it is she will become... which will then, in retrospect, cast Future Dark Willow in more sympathetic light.
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