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Post by AndrewCrossett on Sept 5, 2009 13:02:27 GMT -5
I don't think Joss particularly cares too much if you know the endgame; it's the process to the endgame that's more interesting. The same can be said about Dollhouse. All who have watched "Epitaph One" now know the "endgame", so to speak. Yes, more can be done after the episode, but the point is, you know where the show is headed. The same can be said about the Buffyverse. We know where it's headed; i.e. the Fray future. And S8 is supposed to be a bridge towards that end. It would be a cop-out to just pass the future that we've already seen as an alternate universe deal, and if that was the idea behind "ToYL", it was executed quite craptastically. Joss is already backtracking on how written in stone "Epitaph One" is, though... talking about how it's "memories" rather than a direct narrative. The story of Buffy's final battle in "Fray" was a hearsay account, recited from memory by an unreliable narrator who wasn't present for the actual events. ToYL is more problematic, in that we clearly see that after Buffy returns through the portal, FDW's body is still there on the rooftop. Which means that nothing she does after that point prevents that future for Willow, unless Joss is going to futz around with alternate timelines. I think Willow will live out that future, but I also think when we find out the reasons, it will turn out to be a noble, necessary, and loving sacrifice on her part rather than an attempt to hurt Buffy. The thing about both "Epitaph One" and "Fray" is that both were written when Joss thought he was done with the main story... that there would be no more Dollhouse and no more Buffy. He turned out to be mistaken on both counts. He may not mind that we apparently know the ending, but I also think he doesn't want us to feel certain that we know it. Giving the ending first and then going back and filling in the blanks is a valid storytelling choice in some instances, but it doesn't work very well in a story like this. This is a good old three-act adventure story. The audience wants and expects the ending to be a surprise, not an anticlimax. Imagine if the Star Wars trilogy had started with Princess Leia pinning medals on everyone, and then there was a "One Year Earlier" caption and a fadeout to show Luke riding his landspeeder around the farm. So I don't expect Joss to just wave off "Fray," or "ToYL" or "Epitaph One"... but I also don't think we should be too confident in our assumptions of what we think we know.
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Post by wenxina on Sept 5, 2009 13:24:11 GMT -5
Regardless of whether it's written in stone or not, the point is the gist of the future has been glimpsed. We know where the story is going. As for Willow's future, I see that we are on the same page, though I was being more oblique.
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BlueJay
Descendant of a Toaster Oven
Resident Charmed Fan[Mo0:12]
Posts: 631
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Post by BlueJay on Sept 5, 2009 21:21:49 GMT -5
I don't like Fray or her world. So if Season Eight eventually turns it into an alternate world or rewrites Fray in general, then I wouldn't be unhappy.
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Post by Rebecca on Sept 6, 2009 0:40:33 GMT -5
I happen to love Fray. Though if it does happen to be an alternate, that's ok too. I still have my Fray TPB
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Post by ilovewillow on Sept 6, 2009 1:58:32 GMT -5
Ahhhhhh!!!! I literally screamed out loud when I got to the page with Xander and Dawn kissing. *Wolf whistles* I have no problem with them being together, they're both the most normal pair out of the lot and they've had a connection for a long time. Buffy IMO would just wreak the relationship and it'd be more debris ''on the Buffy highway''. Maybe I'm being biased or I haven't really considered this enough since I *just* finished reading the issue but I think Dawn and Xander have a real chance.
Willow pissed me off in this issue. She gets all mad at Oz for being so successful in learning to control his wolfiness and the fact that he's happy with with a family. Jealous much? Why can't she just be happy for him or use his success as motivation to improve her own life. Her eye went dark! Just like when she was Evil Willow. That was scary, I really want to know what's going to trigger her into being dark again...
About Twilight being able to disguise himself and have spies etc, when Buffy and Willow were talking about Xander being a ''good guy'' it felt like a pointed comment to make. Made me think that Xander's the spy, or Twilight in disguise?
I thought this issue was really good. It made me laugh a lot, I really enjoyed the Andrew bits and the allusion back to Storyteller, one of my fave S7 episodes.
x x x
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Paul
Ensouled Vampire
[Mo0:34]
Posts: 1,173
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Post by Paul on Sept 6, 2009 11:59:32 GMT -5
I don't like Fray or her world. So if Season Eight eventually turns it into an alternate world or rewrites Fray in general, then I wouldn't be unhappy. How can you not like Fray?? Her world isn't all that different to ours, it's just more so.
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BlueJay
Descendant of a Toaster Oven
Resident Charmed Fan[Mo0:12]
Posts: 631
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Post by BlueJay on Sept 6, 2009 14:10:37 GMT -5
I don't like Fray or her world. So if Season Eight eventually turns it into an alternate world or rewrites Fray in general, then I wouldn't be unhappy. How can you not like Fray?? Her world isn't all that different to ours, it's just more so. I dislike Fray because her world is just too depressing. Story-wise, it's well structured, but it doesn't hold my interest like Buffy does. I don't like the artwork either. Oh, and Harth annoys the hell out of me.
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Paul
Ensouled Vampire
[Mo0:34]
Posts: 1,173
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Post by Paul on Sept 6, 2009 18:43:44 GMT -5
How can you not like Fray?? Her world isn't all that different to ours, it's just more so. I dislike Fray because her world is just too depressing. Story-wise, it's well structured, but it doesn't hold my interest like Buffy does. I don't like the artwork either. Oh, and Harth annoys the hell out of me. Well, the Buffyverse is a dark place so I don't know why you would expect it's future to be sunshine and roses. A lot of it is the same problems we have in the present; poverty, pollution, etc, so not that big a difference. I love Fray's world, I love the unusual combination of old-school horror and futuristic sci-fi, and Karl Moline's artwork is so vibrant and colourful. I can't imagine a better depiction of the Buffyverse's future.
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Joe
Wise-cracking Sidekick
Obsessive Paranoid Boob
"Gypsies are filthy people! We shall speak of zem no more!" *spits* -Ilona Costa Bianchi[Mo0:0]
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Post by Joe on Sept 7, 2009 8:28:15 GMT -5
How can you not like Fray?? Her world isn't all that different to ours, it's just more so. I dislike Fray because her world is just too depressing. Story-wise, it's well structured, but it doesn't hold my interest like Buffy does. I don't like the artwork either. Oh, and Harth annoys the hell out of me. Fray is amazing and I didn't find it any darker than Angel was.
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Post by SlayerLV on Sept 7, 2009 23:09:55 GMT -5
I really liked this issue. Andrew narrating the issue was awesome, it obviously reminded me of Storyteller. I thought Willow was so cute with Oz's baby. I think she would make a perfect mother. As for the Xander/Dawn thing I'm so so happy they finally got together. I don't think I would like him with Buffy.
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Post by AndrewCrossett on Sept 7, 2009 23:35:57 GMT -5
I thought Willow was so cute with Oz's baby. I think she would make a perfect mother. I know Alyson is not Willow, but if you've seen any photos of how adorable Aly looks with her new baby, and the tweets she sends about life as a new mother, I think I see a lot of what Willow would be like as a mom (if she didn't have so much horrible apocalyptic drama to deal with, of course).
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richie
Potential Slayer
[Mo0:1]
Posts: 170
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Post by richie on Sept 7, 2009 23:50:03 GMT -5
ok, i just read the issue... and i loved, i hated, i LOL... so i think it was a perfect issue...
i love the jonathan being small and andrew big in the drawing... felt like the guy who did knew what he was doing...like he really knows buffy...
i hated xander and dawn.... it just fells really wrong... and icky...
and i LOL the storyteller narration type....
but after this issue i really think xander/ giles is the twilight(one of them of course) the misterious hand on the chin giles did... and the fact that xander is gaining more space....
ow... if the script meant to feel like buffy was falling for xander... well... i just saw too good friends talking and a attempt to make me believe she wants to be with him... was too out of blue for me...
so i loved this issue in the end... despite all the "wrong directions" i think some stories are going too. and i didnt got it why the hell the amycat(or is she?) dissapear in the middle of everyone... was she just desperate? scared about she saw andrew knew that there was a spy.........
and i really suspicius about giles being uncle twi....
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Post by krazyxxxdj on Sept 8, 2009 1:56:28 GMT -5
Good issue, just got me thinking about some stuff.
I've read a few posts here that Willow's change of mood was strange... I agree (it wasn't very linear), but I can see it. She's holding Oz's baby, and she's just been told that she is trustworthy.... Maybe she's thinking, THIS is what she wants, and she CAN do this, after all - that not only is it possible, it's VERY possible. It was a powerful epiphany for her and it swept over her.
She's ALWAYS had an issue with returning to "nerdy geek Willow". I remember a few conversations from the show where she always thought she was a "nobody" without being a witch. That if you could be "just that girl" or Super-Willow... something along those lines.
I do have to say, however, this entire "season" has kind of puzzled me, after everyone being on her case about the magic, why they have all been VERY OK with her using it in heavy doses. I know Giles once told her that she couldn't just STOP it, that was IN her now, but she's been using it more now than ever (just randomly flying about), etc., even before this Twilight thing became a threat. For Buffy to be asking just NOW "Are you ok, it's not too much?" -- She should have been asking this a WHILE ago.
My other thought was a question in Twilight's motives. Recent issues confirm this is not only someone we know, but someone who wants to see Buffy humiliated/dead. The slayers are "giving up" their slayer power, so, no more slayers, right? It would seem that would be enough to satisfy a villain who just wanted the slayers to go away...it makes me wonder why that is not enough. I still think Giles is somehow, although I wouldn't have a guess as to why. "No, Andrew, I don't want you looking for a spy - no - wait - yes - go watch Willow - take the direction off of me". Maybe?
The only thing I thought that may have been a little off was Faith. I know she had to dust some vampire kids and it may have gotten to her, and even the thing with Gwen, but she's always enjoyed her power. Admitting that she didn't just did not ring true with me. I guess I have to factor in how it would feel to be hated by the world, a little downtrodden, I guess.
I love that the writers & crew are going for longevity, but if we know there's going to be a Season 9, I'd like for this to come along a little quicker. Longest. Season. Ever. lol
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Post by hedgehogvampire on Sept 8, 2009 11:21:52 GMT -5
this was a grate issue. I loved Andrew in this it reminded me of story teller. Everybody was good in this one. Dawn and Xander kissed did not bother me, I don't mind them as a couple. How ever I did feel bad for Buffy. Was it just me or in this issue did Buffy look like she has developed a crush on Xander?
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Post by Rebecca on Sept 8, 2009 11:30:06 GMT -5
I do have to say, however, this entire "season" has kind of puzzled me, after everyone being on her case about the magic, why they have all been VERY OK with her using it in heavy doses. I know Giles once told her that she couldn't just STOP it, that was IN her now, but she's been using it more now than ever (just randomly flying about), etc., even before this Twilight thing became a threat. For Buffy to be asking just NOW "Are you ok, it's not too much?" -- She should have been asking this a WHILE ago. I do think that Buffy has been worried with the amount of magicks Willow has been using, not so much that it is too much for the situation, it's all been very called for, but rather: is it too much for Willow? After Buffy killed FDW in TOYL, that is especially at the forefront of Buffy's thoughts. I also think that with no sign of Willow going dark, just displaying a very supernatural amount of power, everyone thought she would be fine after the scythe spell turned her white. Like, now she has white and dark magicks inside her, at all times. What could possibly go wrong? But I do think they hadn't realized the path she was on until Buffy went to the Future. I think it's not enough because Twilight wants not only to humiliate/kill/depower Buffy, but also this other big thing that hasn't been spelled out yet. I took that as to illustrate Giles internal conflict with how to deal with Willow, especially given the recent knowledge of FDW. I completely agree. However this extent of losing powers puts everyone in a spotlight we have never seen them. Perhaps her "I wanna die" trip in Angel was more than that, she didn't want to live with her powers anymore. I'm glad you brought that up, I remember it striking me as odd during first read. Was it just me or in this issue did Buffy look like she has developed a crush on Xander? Very much so. I just hope Buffy realizes that.
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Beaumonde
Ensouled Vampire
Stop pulling my face towards your face.[Mo0:37]
Posts: 1,810
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Post by Beaumonde on Sept 8, 2009 11:34:33 GMT -5
loved this issue! didn't contribute much to the plot, but i enjoyed all the character moments
Dawn/Xander probably would of shocked me more if some idiot hadn't posted spoilers in the cbox as soon as it was realeased... but i'm actually not too bothered by their kiss, could create some interesting tension between characters
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Post by henzINNIT on Sept 8, 2009 11:38:54 GMT -5
I cringed a little bit when I saw fantasy Andrew. If I wanted to see Storyteller again, I'd put the DVD in. Willow was pretty nuts in this, Oz is boring me (not the same without Seth Green), and Twilight's "gang" scenes are as corny as Buffy has been since the Master in in season 1. He was cooler when you only caught glimpses of him
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Post by Rebecca on Sept 8, 2009 13:50:25 GMT -5
I cringed a little bit when I saw fantasy Andrew. If I wanted to see Storyteller again, I'd put the DVD in. Willow was pretty nuts in this, Oz is boring me (not the same without Seth Green), and Twilight's "gang" scenes are as corny as Buffy has been since the Master in in season 1. He was cooler when you only caught glimpses of him I completely agree with everything you said. Andrew was straight out of Storyteller. I cringed the same when I saw the fantasy trio just a couple issues ago. The throwbacks are nice, but they would be better served with more subtlety. I don't think Twilight was in this issue. Just Amy!Cat.
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richie
Potential Slayer
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Posts: 170
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Post by richie on Sept 8, 2009 15:49:07 GMT -5
as much as i hate to just considering the tought of dander i think the way they put on this issue was just perfect... cause i think we had the same reaction as buffy(at least i did)...
one point to jane/joss
now lets see how buffy gonna to deal with it... she's pretty pissed of. and i like buffy when shes pissed of... (remenber the ubervamp?Or in the beggining of season 2 when she teased xander?) love buffy, but love more bad/dark/hurted buffy
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Post by ilovewillow on Sept 8, 2009 15:52:57 GMT -5
I wouldn't be happy if Buffy got with Xander. I think it's waaaaaay too late. She should let Dander have a chance. All she seems to do is wreck her relationships one way or the other.
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