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Post by winterdreamer on Jan 25, 2010 22:38:36 GMT -5
seriously?....you honestly think it cant be classed as canon because you dont like how its drawn? Thats akin to me saying an episode isn't canon because I didnt like how it was directed...... again....what newer ones? There were five issues of Aftermath, a two parter you haven't read & the new arc in which the art is fantastic? And while some of the work isnt to my taste, 'cheap and crude' seems pretty harsh. considering that a lot of very pro artists (including some who have worked on Whedon projects) have devart accounts, thats probably not the best comment. And yet, I imagine they will continue to run the company as they decide. If they had to make every fan happy nothing would ever get done. Anyway, I'm staying out of this one now. I just came here to hang with some fellow fans, not get in a scrap about artists. So yeah, its fair enough if you dont like their work. (although I think you could probably phrase it in a less...rude fashion, but thats just me) Hopefully you'll give the new arc a shot, because it looks to be a lot of fun. And hey, its not like issues exacly break the bank....most times a decent coffee runs one more. So it doesnt fuss me much if an issue or two falls a bit short of expectations.
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Post by henzINNIT on Jan 26, 2010 8:13:40 GMT -5
I find it funny how Urru is hailed as the ultimate Angel artist nowadays. He was hated on by SO many people when his run started.
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Post by wenxina on Jan 26, 2010 9:29:34 GMT -5
I find it funny how Urru is hailed as the ultimate Angel artist nowadays. He was hated on by SO many people when his run started. Everything is relative? I like Urru okay. His lines are a tad heavy for my personal taste, but of all the artists we've seen do the ANGEL comics so far, he is, IMO the best. I guess once I internalized his style, I liked it a lot better. Also... I like that he's not a slave to likenesses, and his work doesn't look highly referenced at all.
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patxshand
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Post by patxshand on Jan 26, 2010 12:06:11 GMT -5
I find it funny how Urru is hailed as the ultimate Angel artist nowadays. He was hated on by SO many people when his run started. Was he? I remember a few vocal people complaining about how women being too curvy, but that's really it. Who didn't like Urru? I mean, ever since I picked up Spike: Asylum #1, he's been my favorite comic artist. And if you look at his style in that book and then flip to #17... well, the evolution is insane. Mind-blowing. And considering how great he started, this dude is really a force of nature.
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Post by wenxina on Jan 26, 2010 12:23:43 GMT -5
I think it's implicit in my previous post that I don't really care that much for Urru's work. I don't hate it, but I'm not in love with it. Never been, and probably never will. But there are technical aspects of his work that I do find commendable, and so I wouldn't slam him at all. Again, personal taste... I don't like his heavy lines, which at times makes a scene feel claustrophobic and stagnant. But I definitely grew to be quite fond of his work, especially after the artist mash-up fiasco.
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Post by dragonweaver on Jan 26, 2010 12:44:40 GMT -5
Wow this thread has expanded since I last looked at it.
Let me throw in my 2 cents.
Nod, you've made some pretty harsh statements about the art following the After the Fall arc. I couldn't disagree more. Yes Franco Urru is awesome, but he isn't the only artist out there and you can't criticize all the art and then only use a couple examples to prove your point. Every artist has their hits and misses, but only in a few cases has that ever remotely detoured me from enjoying a comic.
Stephen Mooney has a very different style than Urru, but that hardly makes his work bad and the same could be said for David Messina, Brian Denham, John Byrne & Nick Runge. They each have their own unique style and have different takes on how the characters should look. I've learned to go with the flow and accept that.
Going back to your examples. So far most of them have come from the Aftermath series. Let me say that Aftermath was a waste of time. I do agree with you that Dave Ross' art was crappy and at times unbearable to look at. However the amazing part is that, for me, the horrible writing did more damage than the art ever could.
I think I had a point, but for most part I just want to come in here and say that you can't condemn all the Angel artists because one guy did a bad job.
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Post by Skytteflickan88 on Jan 26, 2010 13:13:18 GMT -5
Also... I like that he's not a slave to likenesses, and his work doesn't look highly referenced at all. Amen. Well drawn or not, I never liked the panels and covers that looked like a copy of a promo pic or screen cap. It's fine if it looks like the artist used references, but sometimes it's too much. I think I had a point, but for most part I just want to come in here and say that you can't condemn all the Angel artists because one guy did a bad job. To be fair, he did show pics of the Aftermath artists AND Mooney's work, so apparently, he thinks that at least two artists(maybe more, he said he didn't keep track of them) did a bad job. But I hope he changes his mind, because I wouldn't want anyone to miss out on the great writing
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Post by Whedon Fan on Jan 26, 2010 16:12:45 GMT -5
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Post by patxshand on Jan 26, 2010 16:32:36 GMT -5
Eh, I don't know. I like the order. It is how a lot of comic series do things. Check out "Y: The Last Man." The basic format was like this:
-an arc (few issues long) -single issue (often a flashback, or a "what THIS character was doing during THIS period of time")
I think the placement of the stories vital to maintaining the awesome effect of "After the Fall." Imagine if "First Night" had come out first. It wouldn't have nearly as awesome an impact as the series did when it opened with LA already in Hell. Another example is "Spike: After the Fall." Yeah, it happens before "Angel: After the Fall," but if you read it first, it kills the "Is Illyria really becoming Fred?" mystery.
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Post by Skytteflickan88 on Jan 26, 2010 16:34:48 GMT -5
Hopefully they'll re-arrange all the issues to be read in the correct order for the complete After The Fall HC. . . You mean, first night, spike atf and angel atf? I kind think that it's interesting that we got to wonder "How did the characters end up like this?" in issue 1-5, then we got to know more. And the came spike after the fall (actually, it came during, but I think it's better to read after angel atf, unless you just feel like a break from the longer arc.
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Nod
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Post by Nod on Jan 26, 2010 18:26:12 GMT -5
Wow this thread has expanded since I last looked at it. Let me throw in my 2 cents. Nod, you've made some pretty harsh statements about the art following the After the Fall arc. I couldn't disagree more. Yes Franco Urru is awesome, but he isn't the only artist out there and you can't criticize all the art and then only use a couple examples to prove your point. Every artist has their hits and misses, but only in a few cases has that ever remotely detoured me from enjoying a comic. Stephen Mooney has a very different style than Urru, but that hardly makes his work bad and the same could be said for David Messina, Brian Denham, John Byrne & Nick Runge. They each have their own unique style and have different takes on how the characters should look. I've learned to go with the flow and accept that. Going back to your examples. So far most of them have come from the Aftermath series. Let me say that Aftermath was a waste of time. I do agree with you that Dave Ross' art was crappy and at times unbearable to look at. However the amazing part is that, for me, the horrible writing did more damage than the art ever could. I think I had a point, but for most part I just want to come in here and say that you can't condemn all the Angel artists because one guy did a bad job. It's not just the art that i think looks awful the inking has a huge role in it too. seriously?....you honestly think it cant be classed as canon because you dont like how its drawn? Thats akin to me saying an episode isn't canon because I didnt like how it was directed...... Joss isn't completely involved in this series according to him he just give the writers the OK sign everytime they wanted to do something without writing any of the arcs,when the art suddenly goes down in quality past ATF you should expect some folks to be upset by it, i would love for them to just stick to the dark tones of ATF and add their own touches when needed. it reminded me of the show a lot (specially season 1.). " Anyway, I'm staying out of this one now. I just came here to hang with some fellow fans, not get in a scrap about artists. So yeah, its fair enough if you dont like their work. (although I think you could probably phrase it in a less...rude fashion, but thats just me) Hopefully you'll give the new arc a shot, because it looks to be a lot of fun. And hey, its not like issues exacly break the bank....most times a decent coffee runs one more. So it doesnt fuss me much if an issue or two falls a bit short of expectations. "I aplogoize if i came off as a whiny ass but i would love if IDW just stuck with one artist like Buffy Season 8 then shuffling them between every arc after ATF, some of them are probably great uninked but some of the inkers did a bad job at shadowing and hair coloring, i haven't picked up the new issues yet but some of the previews of the latest issue seem to have improved but are still far away from Urru's excellent inking, modern comics use a lot of amazing coloring that ATF had and worked damn well in each panel , while the new inkers have made some panels look washed out. the artists after Urru have either tried to replicate the actors likeness or went so far from the source material to the point you couldn't tell which character is which. "again....what newer ones? There were five issues of Aftermath, a two parter you haven't read & the new arc in which the art is fantastic? And while some of the work isnt to my taste, 'cheap and crude' seems pretty harsh."Pretty much anything past ATF has been a hit or miss in both inking and drawing,i really wish artists would just try and not create a photo realistic copy of the actors which just appear awful looking than anything else , you can't import real life actors into the comic book panels and expect them to look good. now if they looked as good as some of the cover art THEN it might work. I think I had a point, but for most part I just want to come in here and say that you can't condemn all the Angel artists because one guy did a bad job. To be fair, he did show pics of the Aftermath artists AND Mooney's work, so apparently, he thinks that at least two artists(maybe more, he said he didn't keep track of them) did a bad job. But I hope he changes his mind, because I wouldn't want anyone to miss out on the great writing Exactly,ill say it that some of the artist have done an OK job but others look really odd and washed out. If you honestly think that the change of quality in the art will keep me away from any Buffyverse comics then you really don't know me do you? And again i apologize to anyone who thought any of my comments were rude or offensive , it's just after Willingham's childish and unprofessional behavior with Joss im becoming more and more likely to stop reading the series and the art quality isn't exactly helping. It kills me to see the series in the hands of a self-absorbed prick who doesn't care about Joss's new lore in Buffy S8 and whetere or not anything he will introduce will contradict it. EDIT: multiple quoting errors FTW.
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patxshand
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Post by patxshand on Jan 26, 2010 20:32:07 GMT -5
Well, there is a steady artist now. Brian Denham is the ongoing penciller.
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Post by Paul on Jan 26, 2010 21:01:23 GMT -5
It's important to remember here that this isn't " Angel Season Six". After the Fall was a canonical limited series plotted by Joss. IDW chose to milk... sorry, continue the series as an ongoing, with no real idea of where to take it. It doesn't really matter if the stuff after #17 is different from AtF because it's a different series anyway, or a different run/era at any rate. It's not the same as Season Eight suddenly having different art. For the record, I am enjoying the Angel ongoing, I just don't care if it's consistant with AtF. In fact, I'd rather it establish it's own artistic and narrative identity.
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Post by Skytteflickan88 on Jan 27, 2010 9:48:28 GMT -5
Nod, I don't think you were that rude. A bit negative than most of us would like.
Since Stephen Mooney stops by from time to time on the forum, maybe find a different way to describe your dislike for his art? Not that you have to agree with everyone here, you have the right to express your opinion.
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Post by Nod on Jan 27, 2010 12:08:42 GMT -5
Nod, I don't think you were that rude. A bit negative than most of us would like. Since Stephen Mooney stops by from time to time on the forum, maybe find a different way to describe your dislike for his art? Not that you have to agree with everyone here, you have the right to express your opinion. I really dislike how characters far away come off as odd and their up close looks strange, i could swear that Angel looked like he was wearing make up in some of the close up panels (which there is a LOT of compared to Urru.). I want to see more of his work but inked similiarly to ATF , it fits the series and reminds me that it's a on-going Angel comic and not a one-shot, i haven't seen his work uninked yet but in Boys and their Toys (Which according to folks here it's a play on old comic book heroes.) the detail keeps falling off at distances and the shadowing looks dated , i think he would definitely work for a dream arc/flashbacks of some sort then to be drawing normal arcs. i haven't seen him draw anything outside of the "Boys and their Toys" arc and i don't know if they meant the entire two issue to look like from an old comic book but his shadowing technique and hair and face detail is really dated in a lot of his panels and doesn't fit for Angel. the first panel is from the first issue and the second panel is from the last issue of Boys and Their Toys: i46.tinypic.com/5ythmg.jpgi48.tinypic.com/2s6t44n.jpgBoth Spike and Angel look really odd in those panels, and in some panels Angel hands seemed tiny, has mooney ever drew anything other than the BATT arc? cause i want to see if his work looks the same or not as this arc.
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Post by Nod on Jan 27, 2010 12:14:20 GMT -5
Well, there is a steady artist now. Brian Denham is the ongoing penciller. Glade to hear it , i haven't picked up any of the new issues after BATT because none of my comic stores got them yet. it's not as popular as Buffy Season 8 so most stores nearby don't seem to care about delayed shipments. Nod, I don't think you were that rude. A bit negative than most of us would like. Since Stephen Mooney stops by from time to time on the forum, maybe find a different way to describe your dislike for his art? Not that you have to agree with everyone here, you have the right to express your opinion. I really dislike how characters far away come off as odd and their up close looks strange, i could swear that Angel looked like he was wearing make up in some of the close up panels (which there is a LOT of compared to Urru.). I want to see more of his work but inked similiarly to ATF , it fits the series and reminds me that it's a on-going Angel comic and not a one-shot, i haven't seen his work uninked yet but in Boys and their Toys (Which according to folks here it's a play on old comic book heroes.) the detail keeps falling off at distances and the shadowing looks dated , i think he would definitely work for a dream arc/flashbacks of some sort then to be drawing normal arcs. i haven't seen him draw anything outside of the "Boys and their Toys" arc and i don't know if they meant the entire two issue to look like from an old comic book but his shadowing technique and hair and face detail is really dated in a lot of his panels and doesn't fit for Angel. the first panel is from the first issue and the second panel is from the last issue of Boys and Their Toys: i46.tinypic.com/5ythmg.jpgi48.tinypic.com/2s6t44n.jpgBoth Spike and Angel look really odd in those panels, and in some panels Angel hands seemed tiny, has mooney ever drew anything other than the BATT arc? cause i want to see if his work looks the same or not as this arc. It's important to remember here that this isn't " Angel Season Six". After the Fall was a canonical limited series plotted by Joss. IDW chose to milk... sorry, continue the series as an ongoing, with no real idea of where to take it. It doesn't really matter if the stuff after #17 is different from AtF because it's a different series anyway, or a different run/era at any rate. It's not the same as Season Eight suddenly having different art. For the record, I am enjoying the Angel ongoing, I just don't care if it's consistant with AtF. In fact, I'd rather it establish it's own artistic and narrative identity. I still hate how they constantly change arists , i really want them to stick with one artist/inker and try not change them every arc, it's just that not all artists have the same level of quality and some of them overshadow the other. hence why i dislike the drop of quality in the art.
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Post by Wyndam on Jan 27, 2010 12:14:28 GMT -5
Mooney drew issues #12-14 of AtF and Connor's First Night story, and the Angel Annual that came out last month.
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Post by Nod on Jan 27, 2010 12:29:24 GMT -5
Mooney drew issues #12-14 of AtF and Connor's First Night story, and the Angel Annual that came out last month. Ah thanks Wyndam, I just checked issues #12-14 and a lot of the panels are quite impressive much more better than BATT but it still has that 'crude' art style that doesn't fit my taste , the characters look really darn creepy in some of the panels: i45.tinypic.com/ixyzqe.jpgThe art reminds me a lot of Batman: The Killing Joke which had that "crude" itched look to the art.
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Post by henzINNIT on Jan 27, 2010 12:29:58 GMT -5
I gotta say Boys and Their Toys was weak compared to Mooney's earlier stuff. I didn't enjoy those issues like I did his run in ATF
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Post by Wyndam on Jan 27, 2010 12:33:17 GMT -5
I guess I don't see what you see when it comes to Mooney's work, as that panel of Cordelia has always been one of my favorite panels of art in any comic I've seen. Mooney just nailed Cordelia (ew?), which was so important for that crucial reveal.
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