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Post by Skytteflickan88 on Apr 15, 2008 12:42:17 GMT -5
As for the suit theory, that's pretty dumb considering we know from the symbol and the book that's it's magic. Come on that wouldn't be very Buffy would it. A suit that makes people fly? that sounds magical to me. like in Him in season seven, with the magic jacket. And just because the symbol+book=magic, doesn't necassary mean that Twilight can't use modern technology. but my money's on that he can fly with magic. but it's not a dumb guess. |
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Post by Skytteflickan88 on Apr 15, 2008 12:43:20 GMT -5
As for the suit theory, that's pretty dumb considering we know from the symbol and the book that's it's magic. Come on that wouldn't be very Buffy would it. A suit that makes people fly? that sounds magical to me. like in Him in season seven, with the magic jacket. although it could be non-magical And just because the symbol+book=magic, doesn't necassary mean that Twilight can't use modern technology. but my money's on that he can fly with magic. but it's not a dumb guess. |
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Post by VampSlayer on Apr 15, 2008 13:36:16 GMT -5
Why would it be Giles?
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El Diablo Robotico
Ensouled Vampire
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Post by El Diablo Robotico on Apr 15, 2008 14:04:11 GMT -5
'Cause the aliens in his head made him do it. |
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Post by Rebecca on Apr 16, 2008 12:43:35 GMT -5
My money's still on Harth. I cannot think of one GOOD reason why it isn't him. He just makes the most sense to me.
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Post by Wyndam on Apr 16, 2008 13:02:31 GMT -5
My money's still on Harth. I cannot think of one GOOD reason why it isn't him. He just makes the most sense to me. I really can't see any good reason why it would be Harth. Everyone reading Season 8 aren't complete Buffy fanatics like all of us are, and most probably haven't read Fray. We have been teased a number of times to think that Twilight is someone familiar, someone that we know. Why would it be someone that probably only 20% of Buffy Season 8 readers know (the % is probably much smaller than that too). From everything that I have seen and read, I have a feeling Twilight will indeed be Giles. |
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El Diablo Robotico
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"Surely you have heard about our great victory over the Devil's Robot."[Mo0:3]
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Post by El Diablo Robotico on Apr 16, 2008 14:03:05 GMT -5
My money's still on Harth. I cannot think of one GOOD reason why it isn't him. He just makes the most sense to me. I really can't see any good reason why it would be Harth. Everyone reading Season 8 aren't complete Buffy fanatics like all of us are, and most probably haven't read Fray. We have been teased a number of times to think that Twilight is someone familiar, someone that we know. Why would it be someone that probably only 20% of Buffy Season 8 readers know (the % is probably much smaller than that too). Totally agree. Some have probably read "Fray" since the #16 cover was released, and more will probably try it once #16 comes out, but even so, I'll bet less than half the S8 readers will end up having read "Fray". And again, the size doesn't match Harth, unless he's wearing some padding inside the suit and lifts inside the boots (for what purpose?), and the way he speaks isn't the same as the way Harth does. Also, it doesn't look like Twilight's wearing glasses under that mask, so unless Harth got hisself some contacts or laser-eye surgery...  I was thinking about this a little more last night, and managed to poke a hole in my own theory.  One of the things that made me most suspicious of Giles is that the reason he gives Faith for killing Gigi doesn't seem to match with what Gigi's actual plan was. But the Giles that recruited her couldn't be a future-Giles, unless he was from, like, two months from now, 'cause he doesn't exactly look years older.  I'm gonna stay suspicious of him, but I think I'm also gonna add Ethan to the top of my suspects list, too. Right from the beginning, I thought Amy's "Sleeping Beauty" spell was a lame, time-(or page-)consuming subplot, aimed solely at revealing that someone was in love with Buffy. But what if it actually was more than that? The thread title is "Twilight the Manipulator". What if Ethan maneuvered Amy into casting that particular spell, for the sole purpose of worming his way into Buffy's mind and gathering intel on her? (But he knows, once in there, he can't hide from her, so he pretends he's there to help her and show her what she needs to defeat Amy, who he never really cared about or had long-term plans for, anyway.) It would explain how he, if he is Twilight, could know so much about her--not only mentally and emotionally, but right down to her fighting skills ("I know that move, Slayer"). He then fakes his own death, so that Buffy would never ever suspect him. The build is close enough that it could be him, and the speech pattern seems to fit (very British-y), and establishing him very early on in the story makes sense, so that it's not some character coming completely out of left-field in issue #32 or whatever (think of the line Joss insisted on in "Earshot", where, maybe less than halfway thru the ep, Xander mentions the lunch-lady as the possible killer). The only things that would bother me about it being Ethan is, after being a chaos-worshipping magician most of his life, why is he suddenly wanting things nice and orderly and magic-free? And he was never the Big Bad type--that was kinda the whole point of his character: he was just the annoying mischief maker who caused small-time trouble. Suddenly ending up at the top of the evil food-chain would be a surprising jump for him to make... |
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Post by Wyndam on Apr 16, 2008 14:14:47 GMT -5
The only things that would bother me about it being Ethan is, after being a chaos-worshipping magician most of his life, why is he suddenly wanting things nice and orderly and magic-free? And he was never the Big Bad type--that was kinda the whole point of his character: he was just the annoying mischief maker who caused small-time trouble. Suddenly ending up at the top of the evil food-chain would be a surprising jump for him to make... Well perhaps Ethan's time spent with the commando's after what he did to Giles in Season 4 changed him in some way, whether it be his mind or his ideals? We really have no idea what the Initiative did to him after they took him into custody. Might also explain why the military played such a large role in issues #1-4. |
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El Diablo Robotico
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Post by El Diablo Robotico on Apr 16, 2008 14:43:45 GMT -5
The only things that would bother me about it being Ethan is, after being a chaos-worshipping magician most of his life, why is he suddenly wanting things nice and orderly and magic-free? And he was never the Big Bad type--that was kinda the whole point of his character: he was just the annoying mischief maker who caused small-time trouble. Suddenly ending up at the top of the evil food-chain would be a surprising jump for him to make... Well perhaps Ethan's time spent with the commando's after what he did to Giles in Season 4 changed him in some way, whether it be his mind or his ideals? We really have no idea what the Initiative did to him after they took him into custody. Might also explain why the military played such a large role in issues #1-4. Exactly. Not saying it couldn't be Ethan, but just that if it is, there's gonna need to be some explanation of how and why he's made such a complete turnaround from the character we knew. |
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Post by Emmie on Apr 16, 2008 17:18:22 GMT -5
I'm gonna stay suspicious of him, but I think I'm also gonna add Ethan to the top of my suspects list, too. Right from the beginning, I thought Amy's "Sleeping Beauty" spell was a lame, time-(or page-)consuming subplot, aimed solely at revealing that someone was in love with Buffy. But what if it actually was more than that? The thread title is "Twilight the Manipulator". What if Ethan maneuvered Amy into casting that particular spell, for the sole purpose of worming his way into Buffy's mind and gathering intel on her? (But he knows, once in there, he can't hide from her, so he pretends he's there to help her and show her what she needs to defeat Amy, who he never really cared about or had long-term plans for, anyway.) It would explain how he, if he is Twilight, could know so much about her--not only mentally and emotionally, but right down to her fighting skills ("I know that move, Slayer"). He then fakes his own death, so that Buffy would never ever suspect him. The build is close enough that it could be him, and the speech pattern seems to fit (very British-y), and establishing him very early on in the story makes sense, so that it's not some character coming completely out of left-field in issue #32 or whatever (think of the line Joss insisted on in "Earshot", where, maybe less than halfway thru the ep, Xander mentions the lunch-lady as the possible killer). The only things that would bother me about it being Ethan is, after being a chaos-worshipping magician most of his life, why is he suddenly wanting things nice and orderly and magic-free? And he was never the Big Bad type--that was kinda the whole point of his character: he was just the annoying mischief maker who caused small-time trouble. Suddenly ending up at the top of the evil food-chain would be a surprising jump for him to make... Brilliant, Diablo. You really brought the thread back to the whole "manipulator" character trait. I like your idea that the True Love spell was actually a ruse to let Ethan sneak into Buffy's mind. Seems a bit coincidental that he was inside her mind at that exact moment. Out of all the candidates for Twilight, Ethan and Harth are the only ones who like to play the game at such a complex level - manipulating people like chess pieces. It could be Harth but... On a another thread, people were debating if Twilight was inherently evil. One time Twilight's goal was alluded to was when General Voll said to Buffy in LWH 4: "Twilight is coming. For you, for all your monstrous spawn...it all ends very soon." That sounds to me like Twilight wants to get rid of the Slayer army. Since the Slayer army that works under Buffy's direction is arguably a force for Order, that would be motivation for Ethan to want them out of the way. Have they upset the balance, tilting it in favor of Order over Chaos? Would having all the slayers depowered increase Chaos? Since Twilight has been present in pulling strings throughout LWH and NFFY, I'm expecting him to be influencing the action in WatG - that he gave the vamps intel on the scythe, the castle and the spell to depower the slayers. Ethan considers himself a sorcerer which broken down to its base form means "one who influences fate" and Twilight is "manipulating [his] enemies into waging this ugly war...bringing the age of magic to a close" (NFFY 4). Seems to fit together for me. As many people have said before, the main problem with the 'Ethan is Twilight' theory is that Ethan worships chaos and loves magic, so why would he want the end of magic? SPOILER SPOILER And we know from Fray, that it is actually a slayer that banishes magic from Earth, so why is this goal considered evil? Does the future shown in Fray look less chaotic than the present? I think Ethan used magic because it was his easiest tool to amplify chaos, but he could have found something better than magic. Is magic chaotic? From Willow's perspective, magic follows certain laws that resemble physics. She equates magic with science. Is magic chaotic or ordered? both? |
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Post by wenxina on Apr 16, 2008 20:21:05 GMT -5
Brilliant, Diablo. You really brought the thread back to the whole "manipulator" character trait. I like your idea that the True Love spell was actually a ruse to let Ethan sneak into Buffy's mind. Seems a bit coincidental that he was inside her mind at that exact moment. Out of all the candidates for Twilight, Ethan and Harth are the only ones who like to play the game at such a complex level - manipulating people like chess pieces. It could be Harth but... Here's my problem with it being Harth. NOBODY knows Harth. Not right now. So why hide behind a mask? In fact, Harth seems to enjoy a certain level of infamy... I mean, he's the one that the vampires proclaim to be the one to lead them to a brighter (or darker, depending on preference) future. I think Mikey's right when he said that Twilight's probably someone we'll recognize at once. Or maybe he's just badly scarred. Or heck, it could be a Batman complex. On a another thread, people were debating if Twilight was inherently evil. One time Twilight's goal was alluded to was when General Voll said to Buffy in LWH 4: "Twilight is coming. For you, for all your monstrous spawn...it all ends very soon." That sounds to me like Twilight wants to get rid of the Slayer army. Since the Slayer army that works under Buffy's direction is a force for Order, that would be motivation for Ethan to want them out of the way. Have they upset the balance, tilting it in favor of Order over Chaos? Would having all the slayers depowered increase Chaos? Since Twilight has been present in pulling strings throughout LWH and NFFY, I'm expecting him to be influencing the action in WatG - that he gave the vamps intel on the scythe, the castle and the spell to depower the slayers. But does Buffy's army really stand for order? Twilight cast some doubt on her inner confidence, but I think even before that, in the prologue-y bit, you as a reader may have questioned if her doing what she did beat back chaos and moved forward to something better or was it a bad idea? Could be that changing the status quo could be chaotic. I mean, thousands of girls running around with the strength of Mighty Mouse could be a bad thing. Faith pre-repentance is a good case study. Gigi is another. The mentally unstable girl from that episode in Angel. Simone and her cronies. Ethan considers himself a sorcerer which broken down to its base form means "one who influences fate" and Twilight is "manipulating [his] enemies into waging this ugly war...bringing the age of magic to a close" (NFFY 4). Seems to fit together for me. As many people have said before, the main problem with the 'Ethan is Twilight' theory is that Ethan worships chaos and loves magic, so why would he want the end of magic? SPOILER SPOILER And we know from Fray, that it is actually a slayer that banishes magic from Earth, so why is this goal considered evil? Does the future shown in Fray look less chaotic than the present? I think Ethan used magic because it was his easiest tool to amplify chaos, but he could have found something better than magic. Is magic chaotic? From Willow's perspective, magic follows certain laws that resemble physics. She equates magic with science. Is magic chaotic or ordered? both? Ethan was always like Puck to me. The trickster, doing things for poop and giggles. But Ethan is also a survivor. Remember he tattooed Buffy with that sign of Ergyon (sp?) so that the demon would go for her. He even burned the sign off his skin, didn't he, or am I thinking Fight Club here? So even if Twilight's not Ethan, Ethan could have been offered freedom and his life if her served Twilight's purpose. Or if he is Twilight, what if Twilight's the Big Bad, but there are higher powers involved? I mean, if the balance of power has been upset (Willow's spell did involve some pretty primal magic if it tapped into the essence of the Scythe), something's gotta give. Like Buffy said, you either fall in with the apocalypse, or you move forward. I agree that the representation of magic so far has been a very ordered one. And that's why I think the natural order is an important factor here. But in nature, everything's skewed towards entropy... in other words, nature favors chaos. And yet, in the chaos, you get order. So, that's my way of saying, maybe both. One can't exist without the other. I'm no dialectic genius, though. |
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Post by Emmie on Apr 16, 2008 20:27:25 GMT -5
But does Buffy's army really stand for order? Twilight cast some doubt on her inner confidence, but I think even before that, in the prologue-y bit, you as a reader may have questioned if her doing what she did beat back chaos and moved forward to something better or was it a bad idea? Could be that changing the status quo could be chaotic. I mean, thousands of girls running around with the strength of Mighty Mouse could be a bad thing. Faith pre-repentance is a good case study. Gigi is another. The mentally unstable girl from that episode in Angel. Simone and her cronies. But these are examples of slayers outside the Slayer Army power structure. I think the spell has upset the balance and could result in more chaotic situations with Roque slayers. But the Slayer Army seems to be running pretty efficiently. The counterpoint to this seeming perfection of order is that a double agent is in their midst. As for Harth as Twilight, who knows what people will know about him after "time of your life". As for the mask, it conceals Twilight's identity but what if it also gives him strength too. Maybe it protects Twilight from the sun (if its Harth) since he's flying in the sun in 'A beautiful sunset'. I don't really think its Harth, I'm leaning more towards Ethan because a part of me just doesn't think he's dead. When I was rereading all the Twilight lines, I imagined Ethan saying them and it really clicked. |
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Post by wenxina on Apr 16, 2008 21:14:06 GMT -5
But these are examples of slayers outside the Slayer Army power structure. I think the spell has upset the balance and could result in more chaotic situations with Roque slayers. But the Slayer Army seems to be running pretty efficiently. The counterpoint to this seeming perfection of order is that a double agent is in their midst. True, for all,except Simone and at least 1 (was is 2?) of her cronies. They were part of the slayer army, and they went rogue. What's to stop the girls from going rogue? Now that they're all slayers, there's really nothing that can stop a bunch of them from starting their own armies if they wanted to. Funding may be an issue, but hell, Buffy robbed a bank. As for the double agent... maybe Warren managed to sneak a couple of cameras in the castle. We all know how much he likes to watch... creepy freak! As for Harth as Twilight, who knows what people will know about him after "time of your life". As for the mask, it conceals Twilight's identity but what if it also gives him strength too. Maybe it protects Twilight from the sun (if its Harth) since he's flying in the sun in 'A beautiful sunset'. Agreed that no on knows how much people will know about Harth after those events, but right now, he runs no risk of being recognized. I'll admit that I've never thought of the mask conferring protection, of the SPF 5000 variety that is. But I can't get over how Scooby-Doo it would be if it was Harth in a muscle suit and stilts. Watch the episode with the Miner 49-ner... I think I was in Scooby-Doo Where Are You? Meh... although Harth may have a reason for doing the Twilight deal. He has Mel's visions... could be that he saw what the world could be like if magic's not ended in the world. Bleaker than Haddyn? Maybe Mad Max style. I don't really think its Harth, I'm leaning more towards Ethan because a part of me just doesn't think he's dead. When I was rereading all the Twilight lines, I imagined Ethan saying them and it really clicked. Cue maniacal laughter... |
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Post by Emmie on Apr 16, 2008 21:27:35 GMT -5
Agreed that no on knows how much people will know about Harth after those events, but right now, he runs no risk of being recognized. I'll admit that I've never thought of the mask conferring protection, of the SPF 5000 variety that is. But I can't get over how Scooby-Doo it would be if it was Harth in a muscle suit and stilts. Watch the episode with the Miner 49-ner... I think I was in Scooby-Doo Where Are You? Meh... although Harth may have a reason for doing the Twilight deal. He has Mel's visions... could be that he saw what the world could be like if magic's not ended in the world. Bleaker than Haddyn? Maybe Mad Max style. Ya I was thinking maybe it is Harth because the slayer visions he has show him the past events of a slayer expelling magic from this dimension. So it'd be like him going back into the past to make sure his future came into existence. It certainly would explain Twilight's all-knowing-ness if its Harth with surround sound-uber detailed memories of the past events. He should totally bet on the horses while he's back in the past. |
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El Diablo Robotico
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"Surely you have heard about our great victory over the Devil's Robot."[Mo0:3]
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Post by El Diablo Robotico on Apr 16, 2008 21:54:43 GMT -5
Jesus, someone just contact Joss and ask him "Is Twilight from the future?". So we can end this. Hey, we've got, what, 3 weeks 'til the next issue comes out? What else've we got to talk about in the meantime? Besides, isn't this why we're all here--to discuss things, and throw ideas around? |
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Post by wenxina on Apr 16, 2008 21:57:38 GMT -5
Jesus, someone just contact Joss and ask him "Is Twilight from the future?". So we can end this. Mikey... the irritation you're feeling... think back to the bisexual issue. Reflection is never a bad thing, and it's never too late. If annoyed, don't read. It's a perfectly valid choice. |
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Post by Emmie on Apr 16, 2008 22:01:18 GMT -5
Jesus, someone just contact Joss and ask him "Is Twilight from the future?". So we can end this. And while we're at it, lets ask him "Who is Twilight? Does his name start with a G? An E? Or an R? Is he bigger than a breadbox?" |
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BenTaylor3907
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Post by BenTaylor3907 on Apr 16, 2008 22:02:52 GMT -5
It just doesn't seem right (To me at least!). But I think Joss is saving Harth for another Melaka Fray story.
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Post by gunsandsmoke on Apr 16, 2008 22:11:41 GMT -5
I would sooner say that Ethan is/was working for Twilight, but I don't think he IS Twilight.
Perhaps this might intrigue some of you... So from what we know about Twilight is that he wants to bring an end to magic, however it is very clear that he uses magic to a great deal. He wants to end the Slayer army, but doesn't want to kill Buffy even though that would be the quickest way to bring the slayers to there knees. Roden was carrying a book of Twilight, presumable filled with magic, around and handed it to Faith in order to recruit her to the darkside. Even more intriguing than Twilights identity is his motives. Is it possible that Twilight is actually doing the right thing? Is it possible that Buffy & Willow crossed the line by making all potential slayers into real slayers? If a Slayer's powers are pretty much more powerful than most demons, wouldn't that jeopardize the rest of the world? Wouldn't that make all other humans inferior beings to these select few? Is it possible that when Buffy travels to the future and sees that there is only one slayer again, does it make her believe what she did WILL in fact be corrected by Twilight? How could Buffy control them if they decided to revolt against her? How could Buffy stop them? Well if you ended Magic... Just remember that Twilight tells her "One Slayer in the world was enough to deal with, thousands is not tolerated." That doesn't mean he is against the idea of a Slayer, just thousands of Slayers.
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Post by Emmie on Apr 16, 2008 22:18:08 GMT -5
I'm interested in why Twilight wants to bring about the end of magic when, like you said gunsandsmoke, he so clearly uses so much magic.
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