Nina
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Post by Nina on May 18, 2009 12:31:41 GMT -5
I also love season 4, even with it's flaws it kicks butt. I even go as far that I'm saying that season 4 of Ats is better than any other season in the verse. I know that it's a really hate it or love it season, and I'm in the group that adores this season. The start of season 5 was a huge let down after the epicness of this season. Angel should be epic with many bad guys and storylines linking seasons. The way season 3 & 4 blend together is a real masterpiece.
I'm actually mad at Joss for kicking Cordelia of the show. Cordelia Chase was an important piece of the show that can not be replaced by any other character (especially not by soulless vampire Harmony). So Charisma got pregnant, not very professional of her. On the other side she was in her thirties, Ats was still going strong and there was no indication that Cordy's role would be over anytime soon. And it was not against her contract. We don't even know if she planned it, it could very well be an accident. Jeez, so many women get pregnant while being on a show (SMG is pregnant while starting one). The pettiness of kicking one of the most colorful characters of the show is something I will never forgive ME for. Especially if you hear what they did to CC to get her on the 100th episode. (They promised her not to kill her beloved Cordelia.) Grrr, poor CC.
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Nicholas
Descendant of a Toaster Oven
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Post by Nicholas on May 18, 2009 12:42:42 GMT -5
I think the only real problem with Season 4 is that apparently Jasmine had manipulated everything from Season 1 and up, which I find to be total crap, but you can easily ignore that.
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Joe
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Post by Joe on May 18, 2009 15:47:30 GMT -5
I also love season 4, even with it's flaws it kicks butt. I even go as far that I'm saying that season 4 of Ats is better than any other season in the verse. I know that it's a really hate it or love it season, and I'm in the group that adores this season. The start of season 5 was a huge let down after the epicness of this season. Angel should be epic with many bad guys and storylines linking seasons. The way season 3 & 4 blend together is a real masterpiece. I'm actually mad at Joss for kicking Cordelia of the show. Cordelia Chase was an important piece of the show that can not be replaced by any other character (especially not by soulless vampire Harmony). So Charisma got pregnant, not very professional of her. On the other side she was in her thirties, Ats was still going strong and there was no indication that Cordy's role would be over anytime soon. And it was not against her contract. We don't even know if she planned it, it could very well be an accident. Jeez, so many women get pregnant while being on a show (SMG is pregnant while starting one). The pettiness of kicking one of the most colorful characters of the show is something I will never forgive ME for. Especially if you hear what they did to CC to get her on the 100th episode. (They promised her not to kill her beloved Cordelia.) Grrr, poor CC. I don't think it was entirely Joss "kicking" her out. I think it was a mutual agreement between him and Charisma. Especially with her getting a baby an all, she would want to spend time with her newborn.
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Nina
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Post by Nina on May 18, 2009 15:47:42 GMT -5
I've read an interview with Charisma (years ago, no idea where) in which she said that she really wanted to be on season 5 and was really suprised when she didn't got a new contract. I think that the interview was the same as the one where she told that they promised her that Cordelia wouldn't die in "You're Welcome" so she would sign for that episode. (She didn't want Cordelia to die after all the bad things that already happened to Cordelia, she loves Cordelia.) And Joss said that Cordelia was out because her story was over. Which is of course rubbish, Cordelia's story was not over at all. The woman was just raped by a higher being because she gave her humanity for the good cause. There was so much to explore with Cordelia after season 4. I think the only real problem with Season 4 is that apparently Jasmine had manipulated everything from Season 1 and up, which I find to be total crap, but you can easily ignore that. Yeah, I always fanwank that with Skip giving her too much credit. If Jasmine can do all that, Angel's whole fight against W&H is useless. And I think that ATF shows that the fight is not for nothing and that the big powers can't control choices.
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Post by Tyler Austin "tiewashere" on May 18, 2009 17:54:10 GMT -5
Yeah, it really sucks. I sort of find it weird that they didn't tell Charisma she couldn't get pregnant like they did with the actress that played Monica on Friends for a few seasons. Seriously, you're right. I mean how is that kid gonna feel growing up knowing what it did to Season 4? That is not a burden that Charisma should've put on her child I also would find it very uncomfortable if I was carrying my REAL child and had to pretend it was a demon. Sorta disrespectful to the baby.
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Hallow Thorn
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Post by Hallow Thorn on May 18, 2009 17:59:47 GMT -5
Yeah, Joss is a dick for writting her out, and he did not have to kill her, he could of just made her into a higher being (but not like in season 3/4) or somthing, I love how she came back in After the fall.
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Joe
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Post by Joe on May 18, 2009 18:04:49 GMT -5
Yeah, Joss is a dick for writting her out, and he did not have to kill her, he could of just made her into a higher being (but not like in season 3/4) or somthing, I love how she came back in After the fall. Hey! I don't care how much you love Cordy. As a true Buffy/Angel fan, you must never never never never never never never never never never never never never never never call Joss a dick. No matter what he does. This is only one of his only noticeable mistakes. He gave us the Buffyverse in its entirety... even if Cordelia was written out. Also, how else could we have her be a higher being besides her floating up there being all bored and watching the goings-on? They only way it could've worked for her in season 5 would be for her to come out of the coma and stay at W&H with the gang.
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Post by Tyler Austin "tiewashere" on May 18, 2009 21:23:25 GMT -5
I actually liked Cordelia's death (You're Welcome) and made for a wonderful arc for her character.
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Hallow Thorn
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Post by Hallow Thorn on May 18, 2009 22:40:36 GMT -5
Yeah, Joss is a dick for writting her out, and he did not have to kill her, he could of just made her into a higher being (but not like in season 3/4) or somthing, I love how she came back in After the fall. Hey! I don't care how much you love Cordy. As a true Buffy/Angel fan, you must never never never never never never never never never never never never never never never call Joss a dick. No matter what he does. This is only one of his only noticeable mistakes. He gave us the Buffyverse in its entirety... even if Cordelia was written out. Also, how else could we have her be a higher being besides her floating up there being all bored and watching the goings-on? They only way it could've worked for her in season 5 would be for her to come out of the coma and stay at W&H with the gang. Yeah, thats true .. he is a type of human God on earth, I would never hate him, just what he did... But again... We only saw a small part of her being a higher being, she could of only been "floating up there being all bored" for a short amount of time until she gets her orders from the powers like a test in isolation, and in time things would change, not everything much always make so much sense right away.
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Alexiness
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Post by Alexiness on May 19, 2009 1:34:06 GMT -5
I never really thought about how much more storyline there was for Cordelia after season four - I'm really interested in what could have possibly happened there now.
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Nicholas
Descendant of a Toaster Oven
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Post by Nicholas on May 19, 2009 11:26:02 GMT -5
I think the only real problem with Season 4 is that apparently Jasmine had manipulated everything from Season 1 and up, which I find to be total crap, but you can easily ignore that. Yeah, I always fanwank that with Skip giving her too much credit. If Jasmine can do all that, Angel's whole fight against W&H is useless. And I think that ATF shows that the fight is not for something and that the big powers can't control choices. Exactly, because that would mean that W&H was also under the influence of Jasmine as well, which is crap.
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Hallow Thorn
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Post by Hallow Thorn on May 19, 2009 18:10:25 GMT -5
So we can just think of it as Skip trying to talk up Jasmine?... (it's really hard to think that a higher Power have had plans for Cordy since Buffy Season 1)
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The Night Lord
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Post by The Night Lord on May 20, 2009 0:52:01 GMT -5
Let's see...what was Joss thinking? Do I even want to say anything? I like that Joss gave us the Buffyverse. I hate how he destroyed Cordelia's character and then killed her off, not just in person, but also in memories. How many times is Cordy mentioned in Season 5, not including You're Welcome? About three times. THREE TIMES!! Cordelia is worth more than that. It's like she barely existed. wtf? I also find it a bit annoying how Angel goes rebound onto Buffy so soon after Cordy falls into a coma. So what was Joss thinking? I don't know what he was smoking at the time, but it couldn't have been legal
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Post by VampSlayer on May 20, 2009 1:08:33 GMT -5
Aw, CC got pregerz, and changed s4 completely.
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The Night Lord
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Post by The Night Lord on May 20, 2009 1:13:44 GMT -5
^ Kinda spoils the fun, doesn't it? A finale battle between Angel and Cordelia would have been pretty cool actually. Why didn't they make Angel knocked Cordy up instead of Connor? It could have...maybe not...not really....kinda worked...now I'm not too sure about that lol
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joony
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Post by joony on May 20, 2009 6:28:13 GMT -5
I always explained away Season 4's shortcomings in a differet way. Not that Skip had been talking her up. More Jasmine saw an oppurtunity to be born, and hijacked everyone's destiny. Like Sahjahn did to Connor in Season 3. The prophecy was hokey, but it was still fulfilled, Connor was "killed" by Angel, then Connor killed Sahjahn. I always imagined Jasmine floating around going "Wait a minute, that kid who was born of two vampires, he could provide me with a vessel on earth...oh wait his mother figure is here...lucky! Only problem is i have to get that Angel fella out of the way." As for claiming she orchestrated events as far back as Buffy Season 1, again i think about how Sahjahn said Angel would kill Connor...and that information set in motion events that made it happen. So she probably said she had Fred sent to Pylea, to get the desired effect. And as for the apocalyptic stuff.....I might be obtuse but it always made sense to me. She wants to lead the world into peace....best way to do that is cause as much suffering as possible so people flock to her banner quicker. Having everyone worried about apocalypse will have made it easier on her powers, like she said she has to eat people to build up her strength. And she wasn't destroying the whole world....not even all of California...the sun was only blotted out in L.A. the rain of fire only happened in L.A. Wes did say it'd eventually spread to the rest of the world, but Corjasmine was already preganant with herself by that point, so she never intended for it to go that far. And now my post is mega-huge....
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FiveByFiveFVS
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Post by FiveByFiveFVS on May 20, 2009 11:12:05 GMT -5
I really love season 4. I just wish the whole Jasmine thing never happened. Hearing the original plans for the season makes me a little sad. I would have loved to see Evil Cordelia battle Angel in the season finale. Would've made it possibly the best season. Everything leading up to Jasmine was great, minus the Connor/Cordy sex stuff. Did anyone else hate the fact that they had the same hair? Made the creepy sex stuff even creepier.
This season just had such an epic feel to it, kind of like season 5 of Buffy. All in all it is one of my favorite seasons. I loved Evil Cordelia. The episode where she kills Lilah was jaw dropping. I was like "Hell yeah!".
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Joe
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Post by Joe on May 20, 2009 19:31:53 GMT -5
Enough said.
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The Night Lord
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There can be no love. Only pain exists[Mo0:1]
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Post by The Night Lord on May 21, 2009 1:30:20 GMT -5
Enough said. Agreed. Ick. Why did this happen
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Post by wenxina on May 21, 2009 8:46:17 GMT -5
So that Connor could have Oedipal issues?
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