Season Four - What was Joss thinking?

[Alexiness]

Ive been doing a Buffy/Angel watch-through and I only just finished Angel Season 4/Buffy Season 7. And while watching season four I've noticed that are so many things that just don't add up. There are so many inconsistencies and plot-holes and weird confusing parts in it that I've found myself asking what was Joss thinking? Was Joss not around much for season four?

I know that Charisma told Joss she was pregnant on really short notice, I'm not sure when-abouts though exactly, which would have messed with the storyline a bit. But a lot of it still doesn't match up.

One major plot point I still don't understand was concerning Jasmine's purpose. All of season four was basically one apocalyptic event after another, thought to be in a plan by the Beast. But it turns out the plan was made by the Beast Master. The Beast Master turns out to be Cordelia. And then Cordelia turns out to be possessed by Jasmine.

Now the only information provided was that Jasmine did all of these apocalyptic things in order to give birth to herself. But why? If Jasmine was going to bring forth world peace, why was she so evil while she possessed Cordelia? I mean, Jasmine didn't have an alternative-motive or anything, she wanted to bring world peace. Even though she required to take away free-will and to eat some people in the process - she wanted to save the world.

So why was she so determined to ruin it beforehand?

Any ideas?

[lightandmagic]

It briefly explains these through Wesley in Shiny, Happy People when he says "all those moments were just birthing pains." Or something like that. Which is a pretty weak explanation. Whenever I do a rewatching of Buffy/Angel I always skip the majority of season 4, watching the first episode, Spin the Bottle, and then watching them all starting when Darla makes her appearance trying to convince Connor to not kill the innocent girl.

Season 4 is just ... painful. Not only did they butcher Cordelia's character, but Connor somehow managed to get more annoying, and Angelus got annoyingly chatty. I think I remember reading somewhere on this forum that the producers admitted that they just made it up as they went along, and it shows.

[Alexiness]

Yeah, I remember the comment about the birthing pains. But that was while Wesley was under the thrall of Jasmine. And it still makes little sense. Why would Jasmine need to blot out the sun, cause a rain of fire and all of those things just to make herself come to be? Sure, they could serve as a distraction so she could give birth to herself, but she was giving birth to herself so she could save the world. Destroy the world so that she can save it? Kinda confusing to me.

And if the producers were making it up as they went along then wow. That's a really sad thing to hear from one of Joss' shows.

[henzINNIT]

The season would have been better without Cordelia in it, and sad as that is.

[Skytteflickan88]

May 17, 2009 1:16:46 GMT -5 Alexiness said:

Now the only information provided was that Jasmine did all of these apocalyptic things in order to give birth to herself. But why? If Jasmine was going to bring forth world peace, why was she so evil while she possessed Cordelia? I mean, Jasmine didn't have an alternative-motive or anything, she wanted to bring world peace. Even though she required to take away free-will and to eat some people in the process - she wanted to save the world.

So why was she so determined to ruin it beforehand?

Maybe it wasn't Jasmine that was controlling Cordelia. Maybe it was different - mean - spirit that worked for Jasmine. Or maybe Jasmine's spirit just had that effect on Cordy. It's brought out mega-bitch-Cordy.

[hitnrun017]

I sort of agree. I love Season 4, there is so much great character development and the episodes are epic. Most of the episodes from Spin the Bottle to Orpheus are some of my favorites of the series, all were on such a grand scale and seemed to be leading up to something extraordinary... and then Jasmine came. That five-episode arc is pure "WTF?". I can't wait till it's over when I rewatch, it just makes zero sense when it came to everything else that happened over the course of the season: summoning The Beast, trying to blot out the sun for the entire world, freeing Angelus... none of that makes any sense when it comes to Jasmine. "Birthing pains." Bwahahaha.

At least Home makes up for it.

[ptnewell]

I much prefer S2, S3 and S5 to S4, but I don't see a logic problem. We are told it is extremely difficult for any of the Powers that Be to manifest physically in this world. Jasmine is a (former?) PTB. To pull off this difficult trick takes special circumstances. Or so we are told, more than once. I just figured a blotted out sun and a rain of fire were part of those special circumstances (both conditions existed when Jasmine was conceived, arguably the point where she actually enters the world physically).
As for Jasmine/evil Cordelia wanting Angelus (not Angel) that I believe is very logical.
Up until the time Jasmine actually was born, she was worried that Angel would stop her (in fact, Angel did figure out enough of what was happening to nearly prevent Jasmine's birth. He almost killed Cordelia to prevent it, recall. In fact he was just seconds too late...). Things change once Jasmine is born. After that happens, Angel is under Jasmine's control.
So what Jasmine/evil Cordelia wanted was Angel out of the way BEFORE Jasmine was born, so his do-gooding would not stop her (from being born, as nearly happened). This is why BEFORE Jasmine was born, Jasmine/evil Cordelia wanted Angelus, not Angel.
After Jasmine was born, Angel under her control was a very handy weapon, especially at wiping out non-humans. It seemed to me Jasmine thought she could control all humans, but might need a weapon against non-humans (recall one of the first things Jasmine did was send the team out against non-humans, wiping out demons in LA).
The main problem I have with S4 is that Cordelia spends the entire season (her last!) as another entity, mostly in icky situations, with no emotional payoff. Same with Connor S4: all icky, no payoff. A lot to put us through really.
But it probably all ties together decently.

[hitnrun017]

If only they had mentioned all that stuff.

[henzINNIT]

Although I agree on the lack of a Cordelia conclusion, there was a lot of payoff for Connor. His story is my favourite part of season 4.

[Joe]

Well Joss originally had a story arc planned out for season 4 where it started off with Cordy having "amnesia" (which happened) and the Beast wrecking havok. The end of the season would involve the gang figuring out it's Cordelia and then her and Angel having an epic battle in the season finale. No Jasmine and no Connor/Cordelia disgusting crap going on.

When Joss discovered Charisma was pregnant, he had to completely change the storyline. He couldn't have an epic battle with Angel and Cordy at the end because she would be pregnant. He also had to get her pregnant somehow to cover up Charisma's pregnancy AS WELL as find away for her to be relaxed and not moving around a lot with little appearance during the last 4 episodes (she was due right around the same time of filming Jasmine arc).

I conclude that if Charisma never got pregnant, we would have a spectacular season 4 with most of the Beast/Evil Cordy/Spin the Bottle stuff excluding the horrid pregnancy, Jasmine, and Cordy/Connor.

[Mathieu]

May 17, 2009 18:55:22 GMT -5 Joe said:

Well Joss originally had a story arc planned out for season 4 where it started off with Cordy having "amnesia" (which happened) and the Beast wrecking havok. The end of the season would involve the gang figuring out it's Cordelia and then her and Angel having an epic battle in the season finale. No Jasmine and no Connor/Cordelia disgusting crap going on.

When Joss discovered Charisma was pregnant, he had to completely change the storyline. He couldn't have an epic battle with Angel and Cordy at the end because she would be pregnant. He also had to get her pregnant somehow to cover up Charisma's pregnancy AS WELL as find away for her to be relaxed and not moving around a lot with little appearance during the last 4 episodes (she was due right around the same time of filming Jasmine arc).

I conclude that if Charisma never got pregnant, we would have a spectacular season 4 with most of the Beast/Evil Cordy/Spin the Bottle stuff excluding the horrid pregnancy, Jasmine, and Cordy/Connor.

Wow, wow, wo. Season 4 would have been the best season of Angel EVER. Actors should not be allowed to get pregnant ever. Jeez... What an amazing season it would have been. Just like Willow being the surprising BIG BAD at the end of season 6.

[Joe]

Joss also said that if Charisma never got pregnant, she would've stayed on the show for season 5 after Angel un-possessed her in the season 4 finale. It was rumored that she would've been made "Head of Special Projects" in Wolfram & Hart like Lilah and Holland were in the past.

[Mathieu]

May 17, 2009 19:29:35 GMT -5 Joe said:

Joss also said that if Charisma never got pregnant, she would've stayed on the show for season 5 after Angel un-possessed her in the season 4 finale. It was rumored that she would've been made "Head of Special Projects" in Wolfram & Hart like Lilah and Holland were in the past.

Ok, now I'm gonna cry.

[Tyler Austin "tiewashere"]

Yeah, it really sucks. I sort of find it weird that they didn't tell Charisma she couldn't get pregnant like they did with the actress that played Monica on Friends for a few seasons.

[Nicholas]

And another question: what was Joss thinking when Mecha Dawn was created?

[Malsad]

do u mean Drew Godderd?

[Tyler Austin "tiewashere"]

Drew and Joss were both thinking, "Hey, this is a really funny scene that doesn't detract from the storyline and characters like Season Four of Angel does and all the Dawn haters will love us because the scene is hysterical and such a pay off for them having to deal with the little brat for three seasons prior."

;D Thank you.

[Alexiness]

I loved Mecha Dawn... she was hilarious!

And if that's what Charisma getting pregnant caused... I feel really let down now. And sorta angry at her. How dare she try and have a family when good quality TV is at stake!

But still, the season four storyline could have been changed completely instead of being slightly altered to make the confusing mess it ended up as.

[Joe]

May 17, 2009 20:38:32 GMT -5 Tyler Austin "tiewashere" said:

Yeah, it really sucks. I sort of find it weird that they didn't tell Charisma she couldn't get pregnant like they did with the actress that played Monica on Friends for a few seasons.

Seriously, you're right. I mean how is that kid gonna feel growing up knowing what it did to Season 4? That is not a burden that Charisma should've put on her child

[Wyndam]

Personally, I love Season 4. It's my second favorite season of AtS and one of my favorite Buffyverse seasons as a whole. While some of the "big picture" ideas got lost in translation, if you look at each episode individually, I think they are all almost brilliant. I probably have the most fun watching Season 4 over any other Buffyverse season, just because the episodes are so dang strong.