The Night Lord
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There can be no love. Only pain exists[Mo0:1]
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Post by The Night Lord on May 22, 2009 1:40:08 GMT -5
"Doing your mom and trying to kill your dad....there should be a play...."
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Alexiness
Novice Witch
There is no me... I'm just a container.[Mo0:0]
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Post by Alexiness on May 22, 2009 3:12:58 GMT -5
Enough said. ;D Funny editing. I can barely watch that scene though - it's so revolting. Wouldn't it really suck if someone casually watched Angel for the first time and went from a season 3 episode where Cordelia and Angel were looking after baby Connor like a family, to this episode. Gotta love that quote from Angelus about it though. Even though Angelus was completely ruined as a character in season four, I thought he was freaking hilarious when it came to his comments on the gang.
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El Diablo Robotico
Ensouled Vampire
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"Surely you have heard about our great victory over the Devil's Robot."[Mo0:3]
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Post by El Diablo Robotico on May 22, 2009 16:29:30 GMT -5
And as for the apocalyptic stuff.....I might be obtuse but it always made sense to me. She wants to lead the world into peace....best way to do that is cause as much suffering as possible so people flock to her banner quicker. Except that by all indications, that's not how her thrall worked. People were powerless to prevent it, regardless. If anyone had been able to resist, you'd figure it would've been the gang from Angel, Inc. Angel went to the meat-packing plant, sword in hand, with the express purpose of killing Cordy or whatever she was going to give birth to, yet he fell under her spell. And when he and Connor returned to the hotel, acting loopy, Wes, Gunn, Fred & Lorne figured out almost immediately that they were under some form of enchantment, so their guard would certainly have been up, but it got them, too. So LA going thru a scary patch shouldn't have had any factor in people's susceptibility to Jasmine's powers. So that Connor could have Oedipal issues? You know, I never got the thing about Cordy supposedly being a mother figure to Connor. I've always thought that that was something that they tried to convince you of in S4 by telling you that was the case, but the events of S3 don't really back it up. Yes, she helped take care of him when he was a baby, but so did Fred, Gunn, and Lorne (Wes was too busy looking up old prophecies to be bothered, it seemed). Also, she didn't really take care of him all that long, either, before he was taken--not even as long as the rest of the gang, since she headed off to Mexico with Groo a week or two before Wes kidnapped him. The other thing that bugs me is this idea that Cordy/Connor is gross because she's too old for him. Oh, it's gross, all right--don't get me wrong. But not because of the age thing. In S4, she's 22, and he's 18. She just seems older because she looks about 35 (because she was about 35, and the pregnancy made her look even older), and around the start of S3 the writers either forgot how old her character actually was, or remembered but decided it just wasn't going to work playing her off as 21 anymore, and fast-forwarded her personality to be more in line with Charisma's appearance...
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Post by Emmie on May 22, 2009 18:28:45 GMT -5
The idea of Angel and Cordy as parents to Connor is most prevalent in this end scene from "Provider": Cordy calls Connor "my baby peep" and then Angel and Cordy go on to discussing the future and college funds and future vacations. That is very much a 'we're a family' scene with Cordy as the mom. We don't see Gunn, Fred or Lorne lying in bed with Angel and discussing the future in such an intimate scene. Only Cordy. If we can agree on the subtext of Buffy/Faith interaction, I think it's very clear that subtext was laid out for Cordy-as-Connor's-mom.
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The Night Lord
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The Long Kiss Goodnight
There can be no love. Only pain exists[Mo0:1]
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Post by The Night Lord on May 22, 2009 18:37:30 GMT -5
I love that final scene in Provider. Very sweet and they look so much like a family...
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Post by lightandmagic on May 22, 2009 18:55:50 GMT -5
It's funny cause after reading this thread, I was thinking about how each episode in season four is actually pretty good, but three major flaws bring down the whole season four me. The first being the obvious, the gross/icky Cordelia/Connor romance, the second being the almost as obvious annoyance that is Connor and thirdly is the re-emergence of Angelus.
On the Cordelia/Connor romance thing, I just find it so weird because Cordy WAS a mother figure to Connor in season three. Yes, the rest of the gang does indeed help parent him (esp. Fred and Gunn during the summer hiatus apparently), but Cordelia at least to me seemed like the dominant motherly figure. In Season 3, she was commonly watching and caring for baby Connor (ex. Birthday) and the fact that they were establishing her as a love interest for Angel added to the fact that she was definatley a parental figure. Oh, and also, after Connor is taken it's Cordelia who sits with Angel in silence to help him grieve, to help him through it, the only one that he would allow to do that, as he is closest to her, seems to add to the idea that she is the other sole parental figure. Add the fact that it was Cordelia who cared for Darla when she discovered that she was pregnant and wanted to help with the child always gave me the idea that was to be seen as a motherly figure to Connor.
Also, after Connor returns as an adult from Quor-toth, Cordelia still treats him like a child, and tries to welcome him to thr group. Her explanation of demons to him, and her patience with him even after he attempts to kill her seemed very matriarchal to me.
So while age-wise they are not all that different, it was incredibly gross to watch (especially considering I'm part of the DVD-era and did not follow either series all that well while they were on TV) Cordelia raising and cooing over him as a baby and then not too long after having sex with him.
Not to mention it wasn't even Cordelia who was allowing this, and rather Jasmine who Connor was having sex with, seems comparable to rape to me (no, not saying Connor raped Cordelia as he did not know at the time that she was posessed). But the fact that her body was used/abused like that draws a lot of parallels to rape to me.
I also would like to mention that it's especially weird that he's having sex with Jasmine, who is likened as his daughter (she continually refers to him as her father, as do her followers), which just made the whole idea more ...eugh to me.
Now, onto Connor as a character, who pre-season five and comics definately stands as my most hated Buffyverse character ever. He knows that Angel didn't kill his father, yet still is a little brat to him all the time. Constantly attacking him, and trying to kill him on multiple instances as he is incredibly gullible.
He is also a sheep, he follows Cordelia/Jasmine's every whim while she is pregnant, despite his knowledge of her character beforehand and her love for Angel, and how incredibly out of character she was acting, you think he would question.
One could say that he was well aware that she was indeed not herself, as his speech in the penultimate episode where he cites that he knows that this whole relationship and Jasmine-thing is a lie, yet chooses to follow it along anyway. Which brings me to the point, if he knows that it's a lie, instead of being selfish and an idiot he could have warned Angel and co., or hell tried to do something himself. I mean yes, he was going to have a child with her, but he is either too stupid to realize something is up with Cordelia, or too selfish to try and help her. Hell, despite every sign saying that something is wrong, he still kills a girl for her. (Or at least I remember him doing it, I haven't watched Season four in a while and when I do, I generally skip the majority of it).
The only thing that was somewhat decent about his character was his devotion to Cordelia even though he knows it is a lie. However, this whole idea is destroyed when he decides he's going to bomb a store and Cordelia as well (by the way, how the hell did he get explosives and how would he even know about them?) made me lose all respect for him.
Yes, he has gone through a lot, but it doesn't excuse his actions, he was given so many chances to be a good person, and to do the better thing and instead he was just generally, an idiot. It aggravated me to no end.
It especially bothered me how we were supposed to feel sympathy for him while he's trying to kill a group full of innocents and Cordelia, when rather I was begging Angel to beat him in the face with a bowling ball.
Now, onto Angelus. I loved that he re-appeared. I hated how out of character he was. In Season 2 of Buffy, he was smooth, and incredibly cunning, known for planning out the misery and torture of others. This season he is not only annoyingly chatty (although, he does make some funny remarks on the gang), he seems to have no purpose, and just runs away from the group doing his own thing mostly. It seemed out of character, I would think that he would be doing things like attempting to kill Fred to mock the group, or something akin to that (not that I want Fred dead!). It just seemed like they forgot what Angelus was really like, and made him this cocky, chatty villian that served to annoy.
That is why I don't like Season Four. These elements, mainly Cordy/Connor and Connor himself make it painful to watch. Which is sad, because if it weren't for these elements I would have enjoyed the season. On the plus side, Faith was an awesome element to the season, the cameo of Darla, and the Magic Bullet is one of my favourite episodes in the series as it gets to show the strength of Fred that I had forgotten about.
Sorry for the TL;DR post, haha. =/
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xythil
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Post by xythil on May 23, 2009 18:37:52 GMT -5
Season 4 was incredible. It was very neat chronologically being that most of the episodes were separated by minutes.
But more then that it had GREAT character development, for everyone in the series.
Heck Orpheus alone made that season amazing. That was some of Elizas best work.
Is it just the whole cordy not really cordy thing that bugs people? The story made fine sense, as far as buffy/angel story arcs usually go... so I don't see a problem there.
Every character went through interesting changes. Gunn and Fred, Faith, Angel, even Connor ect.. And beyond that we got to enjoy the greatness that is Angelus and and the awesome evolution of Wesley which if you compare him to his stint on buffy and early angel seasons.. I mean my god the best character arc possibly ever?
I just do not see why it gets so much hate.
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The Night Lord
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There can be no love. Only pain exists[Mo0:1]
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Post by The Night Lord on May 23, 2009 18:46:55 GMT -5
I guess it could the whole Connor-sleeping-with-his-mother-figure thing. It's seriously disturbing and it's what I hate about season 4. Plus Cordelia's possession and Jasmine, definitely Jasmine. I like the whole 'end of the world' thing with the Beast, Faith's return and Angelus running around the place. So yeah, my big hate on season 4 is Cordy/Connor
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Paul
Ensouled Vampire
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Post by Paul on May 23, 2009 19:47:17 GMT -5
I love season four, warts and all, and posted a big review in another thread. Even defended the Cordy/Connor relationship to an extent. Here's what I said: Sorry for dredging an an old thread, I was going to start a new one and figured since this already existed...
Anyway, I've been watching Angel season four lately and have been enjoying it a lot. I knew this was one of the most despised seasons of either show, so I wanted to take a moment to balance out the hate. First of all, I really like some of the religious themes and imagery in this season. The Beast is your classic devil with horns and cloven feet, whereas Jasmine is a beautiful, glowing goddess. This is also one of the most epic, apocalyptic seasons of Buffy or Angel. Blocking out the sun and the rain of fire are beautiful concepts, and there's a real sense of city-wide chaos during the Beast's reign. Later on, this sense of scale is continued via Jasmine with the entire city of L.A. acting as her private army. The threat-level never felt higher on Angel than during this season.
The worst thing about season four is the character assasination of Cordelia. This was truly ill-advised and I don't defend it, but when you know in advance that it's not really her, it's more forgivable, especially since she redeems herself spectacularly next season. The worst part for me is before she kills Lilah, and we have to put up with a horribly bland (and frankly rather ugly - not Carpenter's best hair/costume) impersonation of Cordelia. Once she starts acting openly evil, it's more enjoyable and she actually has some amusing moments; one of my favourites being: Willow: "Are you thinking the same as I am?" / Cordelia: [About to stab Willow to death] "I doubt it." As for the ever controversial Cordelia/Connor relationship, I'm going to commit Buffyverse blasphemy by saying I don't mind it that much. Again, obviously a horrible move for Cordelia, but I kind of dug the twistedness of their relationship. It was creepy, but in a deliberate way, and I really liked their disturbing theme tune. The scene where Cordelia is manipulating Connor into murdering an innocent girl is pretty brilliant because it's just so effed up.
Other aspects of the season... we had a cool new character in the form of Gwen who had a poignant and memorable sub-story despite appearing in only three episode. I wasn't a huge fan of Angelus; it was a good idea to bring him back and the story worked, but Boreanaz irritated me with his OTT performance. I felt like wrapping his mouth in duct tape to get him to shut up, something I never did during S2 of Buffy. Faith's return was much-better and her episodes were some of the best of the season. She appears so rarely in the verse that her appearances always feel special. "Orpheus" was a great episode and Willow is like a bright ray of sunshine, reminding us all that Buffy is the far superior series. It's weird how we take her for granted on Buffy, but her appearance here is a big event. The main Angel characters all get good development this season; Wesley's relationship with Lilah becomes geuinely touching and he's nicely conflicted, Fred is much stronger and "Shiny Happy People"/"Magic Bullet" are her best moments, Gunn irritated me at the start of season with his constant jealousy over Wesley but is cool in "Players" has a sad character arc as the team continue to take him for granted. I think it was a good idea to write W&H out of the show for a while, since they are a bit overused in the series and it was nice to see something different.
My favourite part of the season is Jasmine and her story. Contrary to popular belief, I think she's one of the scariest and most effective villains in the Buffyverse and Gina Torres is excellent. I'm agnostic leaning towards atheism, and, while I respect other people's right to believe what they want, I think organised religion is a bad idea. I've met a lot of people who condemn homosexuality based on religious beliefs and use the Bible to justify bigotry. I also disagree with the way religion is taught to children in schools, akin to brainwashing. I'm saying all this because I think the Jasmine story really highlights how dangerous religion can be; people mindlessly following a higher being who preaches love and doing unspeakable things in it's name. They don't ask questions, they just do things because Jasmine tells them to (the way some people hate gay people because of what the Bible says). It's great how Jasmine is a very warm and likable character at first, you almost forget the characters are under a spell because she is so charming. But then she shows her true colours as a frightening dictator. I love the shot of her laughing maniacally as cuts appear and disappear on her body, you see how crazy she is. I love the concept of one the Powers That Be actually becoming a physical character because they're such a huge part of the show's history, and having her be the main villain of the season is totally unexpected. The chararcters have been complaining about the PTB's inactivity for years, and now we see what happens when one of them decides to take an active role. The episodes where Fred is completely alone in a city full of Jasmine followers were a pretty scary version of the classic pod people story.
I'd say that season four is like most of Angel; seriously flawed but still full of excellent material. People say the storyline is too complicated, but I just go with it. Yeah, there are a few plot holes if you stop and think "why did Jasmine need to do that?" but it's all explainable by the technobabble concept that they were "birthing pains". Maybe all that rain of fire stuff needed to happen so that Jasmine could be born, who knows how the Buffyverse works on a metaphysical level. After a slow start, the season builds momentum and soon becomes very compelling and entertaining. I think it's probably easier to watch as a DVD marathon than during the original TV run, which is why I don't share fandom's bad feeling for it (I never watched Buffy or Angel on TV). People focus too much on the bad stuff (Cordy/Connor, plot holes) and ignore all the great stuff. Personally, season four is my second favourite year of Angel after season five.
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Post by Wyndam on May 23, 2009 19:59:44 GMT -5
Considering the HUGE curve ball the creative team were thrown with Charisma announcing her pregnancy late, I think that Season 4 turned out brilliantly.
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The Night Lord
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The Long Kiss Goodnight
There can be no love. Only pain exists[Mo0:1]
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Post by The Night Lord on May 23, 2009 20:19:08 GMT -5
Well yeah, Season 4 is good in that aspect of apocalyptic stuff and that. I like that about s4 with the rain of fire, blocking of the sun and the Beast, allowing demons and vampires run rampant throughout LA and causing chaos and terror and the reemergence of Angelus only adds to it all, though in the end, he 'saves' LA from the Beast, which was cool. The whole 'end-of-the-world' thing was pretty good, though it is a little confusing as to why Jasmine wanted that if she could enslave everyone within her thrall in the snap of her fingers (I simply think of it as Jasmine using it as a distraction). Like I've said, I don't like the Connor/Cordy part and I'm not a big fan of Jasmine, but other than that, I like Season 4, simply for the Beast, Angelus, Faith and the apocalypse
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Post by MrKittyFantastico on May 24, 2009 11:03:33 GMT -5
Personally, I thought the whole Cordy sleeping with Connor thing was a masterstroke of story telling. The fact is, it's something that makes you feel quite horrid just at the thought of it and so was a great way to twist Cordy and Angel's relationship that you just do not see coming.
This is a Joss Whedon show, remember. The man's main storytelling device is thinking what is the worst possible thing that could happen to a character, because it just makes such great television. At that point, I don't think much else could have destroyed Angel more than seeing the woman he loves have sex with his son who hates him.
I love Season 4. It one of, if not my favourite season of Angel. The pacing, the serialisation, the sheer epicness of it, are just fantastic. It's like 24 with vampires! I even really liked the Jasmine plot line. It's certainly the weakest arc of the season, but it's still an entertaining ride and a nice turn for the season at that point. Everything was doom and gloom uber apocolypse. Another 5 episodes of that may have really taken their toll, but with the juxtaposing to almost the complete opposite in look and feel, all the arcs of the season stand out on their own.
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xythil
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Post by xythil on May 24, 2009 13:15:39 GMT -5
The pacing, the serialisation, the sheer epicness of it, are just fantastic. It's like 24 with vampires! Bingo, That is why it is one of the best seasons... if there is even a best season
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El Diablo Robotico
Ensouled Vampire
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"Surely you have heard about our great victory over the Devil's Robot."[Mo0:3]
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Post by El Diablo Robotico on May 25, 2009 1:11:17 GMT -5
If we can agree on the subtext of Buffy/Faith interaction, I think it's very clear that subtext was laid out for Cordy-as-Connor's-mom. You've just been waiting to use that against me, haven't you? I didn't forget about the scene at the end of "Provider", and if you wanna argue that it identifies Cordy as a mother-figure on a subtextual level, fine. My problem is when it's brought up on a textual level, and used by various characters (and fans) as a reason why Connor/Cordy was so wrong. I'm not looking at it in a literary, symbolic way--I'm looking at it in a very practical, real-world way, and I just don't think that being one of several people helping to care for a newborn for a grand total of probably 3 weeks makes her a mother-figure worthy of Oedipus references. Connor certainly wasn't old enough to have memories of her, to have looked to her as a mother. The "My baby peep" thing: I just assumed she was singing a bit of a lullaby. I have no kids or younger siblings, so I wouldn't know a real lullaby from a totally made-up one, but that's what it sounded like to me. That definitely doesn't sound like a phrase Cordy would use in any other circumstances. I don't think song lyrics really do much to help support an argument, one way or another--at least not in this case. My main hatred for Connor and Cordy in S4 doesn't have much to do with them being a couple at all. They're both equally detestable and unwatchable even in their own scenes, apart from one another. Connor is written as this complete tool who doesn't even seem to have a brain in his head, who'll do anything Cordy tells him to. Seriously, for all his hatred toward Angel(us), Holtz was a good man, who you'd think would've spent 18 years instilling a better value system in Connor than what he displays in S4 ("Inside Out", particularly). Either that, or he's just a moron, plain and simple... yet he was smart enough to get into Stanford. :unsure: And Cordy... She's just so arch, so campy, that it's almost ridiculous. As good as Charisma was playing the lovably-snarky Cordelia Chase, that's how bad she is playing a Big Bad. As a villain she just has no, well... charisma. Altho she wasn't exactly given great material to work with by the writers (especially in light of awesome previous nemeses like Lilah, Lindsey, and Holtz). If you're ever looking for a good "Angel" S4 drinking game, try this: every time Evil Cordy says "We're special, Connor," you've gotta do a shot. You'll be blasted in no time, and maybe those Connor/Cordy scenes will even become tolerable. There's actually a lot of individual stuff in S4 that I do like, but besides C/C, the thing that bothers me most about it is that it got away from what had been so great during the Greenwalt era: a show about Angel's smaller, more personal battles (like Darla and Holtz and his histories with them). S4 became a big, grand, apocalyptic fight, and I think that just worked better on "Buffy".
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Post by Emmie on May 25, 2009 1:24:48 GMT -5
That's why it wasn't weird for Connor, from his perspective alone. But from Cordy's perspective it very much would be wrong. She viewed him as a surrogate child in a way. Even when he returned from Quortoth. Forgive me for quoting this gagworthy scene, but in it Cordy is very maternal in her healing of Connor:
Symbolically, Cordy was a second mother to Connor, the "closest thing to a mother" he'd ever known. She fills the mother figure role for him just as Giles fills the father figure role for Buffy. From all the adult characters perspectives, Cordy was the closest thing Connor had to a mother and that's why they find it repellent to learn she's sleeping with Connor. From Connor's perspective he doesn't know those of those first few months when the dynamic was established, but it's still there.
Cordy as Connor's mother was subtext until it became acknowledged as text. The way that Tara and Willow being lesbians was subtext until it became textual. The messages were always there.
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El Diablo Robotico
Ensouled Vampire
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"Surely you have heard about our great victory over the Devil's Robot."[Mo0:3]
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Post by El Diablo Robotico on May 25, 2009 1:57:16 GMT -5
Okay, good pull on that one, E. Unlike the "Provider" scene, that's one I'd forgotten about. But the thing is, look at the context: she's using soothing language and tones to try to defuse a homicidal lunatic. I believe that if Fred had had those powers, she probably would've said something very similar. In fact, since I'm thinking of her: The thing I keep coming back to, the stumbling block I'm having, is just over the length of time involved. The fact that she only took care of him as a baby for about 3 weeks. Maybe if she and Angel had actually been a couple, and maybe if she'd helped raise him for 6 months, a year, then I'd feel a better case could be made. As it is, I just look at her as one of several babysitters that he had in his brief time before being abducted...
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Post by Emmie on May 25, 2009 2:08:09 GMT -5
Yet from Cordy's perspective, Connor is a child to her and the time that's passed is only a few months. The dissonance comes from Connor's perspective. This only shows why he wouldn't register the idea and in this regard, it's true that he doesn't have a true Oedipal complex in the way that's psychologically defined. But he's more closely associated with the origin of the word, Oedipus, who unknowingly slept with his mother who'd never truly been a mother to him that he knew of.
Cordy views herself as a surrogate, as a caregiver, where as Connor wouldn't see her that way. But that's how all the other adults view her, partly in relation because she was the closest to Angel at that time too. She became the de facto mom. Frankly, even the Cordy/Connor scenes during Season 4 where it's not even Cordy are so damn creepy because Jasmine!Cordy maintains this didactic, caring, maternal voice to Connor. This is extended from Cordy's true role with Connor from Season 3.
If you limit the time period that they had Connor, you might as well also reduce Angel's time as father. Because he wasn't the sole caregiver at that time either and certainly had to give over responsibilities for caring for baby Connor. Again, it's only a matter of weeks, but that bed scene and the way Cordy treats Connor after his return speak volumes to me. Angel says Cordy is the "closest thing [Connor] had to a mother" and that's true. He's never known anything closer to a mother than Cordy. Not in his life experiences, not til the spell in Home when he gains all new childhood experiences.
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El Diablo Robotico
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"Surely you have heard about our great victory over the Devil's Robot."[Mo0:3]
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Post by El Diablo Robotico on May 25, 2009 2:40:57 GMT -5
If you limit the time period that they had Connor, you might as well also reduce Angel's time as father. Because he wasn't the sole caregiver at that time either and certainly had to give over responsibilities for caring for baby Connor. True, but he has something that Cordy doesn't: an actual biological tie to the kid. So while he wasn't Connor's father-figure during his first 18 years, he has the creds to slip into that role (or try to, much to Connor's displeasure). Cordy's main claim to the "mother" role, on the other hand (as compared to Fred), is just thru her relationship with Angel.
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Post by Emmie on May 25, 2009 2:52:07 GMT -5
Yet the claim is no more than what it is - symbolic. No one ever said Cordy was Connor's mom. They said she was like Connor's mom. And I think all the examples I posted above show that yes, she was like Connor's mom in the way she acted. Very maternal.
Re: the example that Fred would have acted the same way with that power. Except Cordy didn't act that way earlier when she was using her glowy power to kill off the water-leeching demons. And frankly, I don't think Fred would have acted that way either. That scene is so damned gagworthy it might as well just have subtitles saying "Cordy is being MATERNAL audience, do you get it? Got it? Good."
Was Cordy like Connor's mom in the few scenes we saw them together? Was she maternal towards Connor? I think the answer is yes.
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El Diablo Robotico
Ensouled Vampire
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"Surely you have heard about our great victory over the Devil's Robot."[Mo0:3]
Posts: 1,199
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Post by El Diablo Robotico on May 25, 2009 3:08:46 GMT -5
Re: the example that Fred would have acted the same way with that power. Except Cordy didn't act that way earlier when she was using her glowy power to kill off the water-leeching demons. And frankly, I don't think Fred would have acted that way either. That scene is so damned gagworthy it might as well just have subtitles saying "Cordy is being MATERNAL audience, do you get it? Got it? Good." Except that the water-leeching demons weren't related to her best-friend/potential-lover, so she had no reason to try to just calm them down vs. simply being expedient and wiping them out. In the situation with Connor, I believe that Fred, or any other woman (since most guys couldn't talk like that to another guy and get away with it), would've done the same thing: use soothing tones and gentle endearments ("just an expression", like Fred said) as a way to get him to chill the hell out. Maybe it should have had those subtitles, because I didn't get "maternal" out of it at all, and still don't.
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