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Post by faithswatcher on Sept 5, 2008 17:37:34 GMT -5
Actually thats just reminded me of something said in the actual issue. To Gunn, about the visions that he has seen.
"They were true. Every single one of them. Buts its your interpretation..."
Well, weve only seen one image from this vision, it could mean something COMPLETELY different. Such as, that vision was of Angelus, and once Angel has destroyed him, he will get Shanshu.....
I really like the idea that Angelus and Angel have been split into different bodies in HellA.
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trunkstheslayer
Potential Slayer
Bad day. Started bad, stayed that way.[Mo0:0]
Posts: 188
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Post by trunkstheslayer on Sept 5, 2008 19:25:34 GMT -5
Am I the only one who thinks the vision-splash is fully really, but not what it seems?
All we see is Angel standing over the bodies, with the sword. I do wonder if that's the same sword he was stabbed with by Gunn. It doesn't really look like it, aside from the colors but on the cover for 13 it's the same sword so, given that the splash sword and the rest of the issue sword are by two different artists, that could explain the difference...yea?
Anyway, onto my thoughts on the image: Couldn't the body count be another's doing, and Angel's getting ready to take down what ever it is that did it? It may seem like a stretch, but he IS looking up at something soooo....? *shrugs* Just a thought.
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Post by Emmie on Sept 5, 2008 19:28:37 GMT -5
trunkstheslayer: I'm with you. I'm not taking a vision given by W&H at face value.
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Post by Wyndam on Sept 5, 2008 21:03:29 GMT -5
I meant to bring this up last night, but I wanted to ask everyone something about Fred.
I thought it was confirmed that it was actually Fred that had returned and it wasn't just Illyria transforming into Fred? A comment from Wesley in issue #12 made me start to worry otherwise. I don't have the comic in front of me so I can't type up the quote, but it is during the scene where "Fred" is trying to figure out what has happened to Gunn, and Wesley says something to the effect of 'this is what Fred would do in this situation' leading me to believe that it wasn't actually Fred, but Illyria posing as Fred.
So I'm just a little confused about the whole thing, as I thought Fred actually returned (hence the major cliffhanger with issue #5).
Based on the #14 cover it appears as if Illyria becomes a main focus, and also from the #13 blurb we learn that Wesley is given an offer he "can't refuse," which naturally points to Fred as well, so I guess we'll just have to see over the next few issues just what exactly is up with Fredllyria.
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indigo
Innocent Bystander
"We've got crosses on our eyes."[Mo0:8]
Posts: 20
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Post by indigo on Sept 5, 2008 22:05:44 GMT -5
Wasn't in love with the art (Panels here and there just looked... funny.) But the script was mind blowing.
I'm just glad that the dragon's name DID end up being Cordelia, as that was my first assumption. Very good to see the actual (...I'm assuming) Cordy again, too.
Last page? My head exploded.
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scarecroe
Innocent Bystander
[Mo0:0]
Posts: 12
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Post by scarecroe on Sept 5, 2008 22:42:16 GMT -5
Why would W&H let Angel know via Wesley that their intention was for him to play on the evil side of the apocalypse, thus giving Angel an option to back out of it? Wesley's too smart to be manipulated like that.
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Post by buffyfan21 on Sept 5, 2008 23:25:42 GMT -5
I really loved this issue. Loved the return of Cordy, and I thought the artwork was fantastic. Love the two covers as welll. Loved the Connor and Gwen Drama as well. And I loved Ily taking on the persona of Fred in order to understand what's going on.
It seems as though Wes is beginning to fade much like Spike did in early S5....
I found the image of Angelus surrounded by dead bodies to be particularly chilling. So basically, W&H is saying that Angel's role in the apocolypse will be to revet to his his formor self and kill everyone? This is how Angel will eventually become human? Doesn't sound like a good plan to me...Seems as though W&H is just pulling Angel's strings again, making him a pawn in their game. Wes said something along the lines of how all this happening has been about Angel the whole time, and trying to get at him. The rest of the group are just innocent bystanders who must suffer to get to Angel. I think W&H doesn't really have a problem with the others, Angel is the main mission. They want to do everything in their power to bring him down, including messing with the lives of those he holds dear.
Wes shows Angel this vision of the future, and then Angel decides that he would rather go with Cordy.....Can't say I blame him either.
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witcher
Wise-cracking Techno Genius
Homicidal Bunny
Willow fan forever[Mo0:30]
Posts: 711
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Post by witcher on Sept 6, 2008 2:42:20 GMT -5
LOVED THIS ISSUE. Best one so far. Cordy being back, Gwen not being just a betrayer but acting like any human would act ( plus she didn't die or kill anyone, and I was afraid one of two will happened), and that "Doyle back soon" was just the best. As far as the last pages go it was out of this world!! can't wait to see whats that all about. I'm kinda on board with Angel-Angelus get separated. I think that what the prophecy is all about. Angel-Angelus get separated, Angelus tryes to bring on apocalypse (again) and Angel stops him. Also the vision Angel was shown could be just a way for WR&H to get him to dye so Angelus could do what he wants. In that case Wesley would still believe that the vision is true they just would not know whos it about. As for Fred/Illyaria I think Fred is not back and Illyria is going Hell crazy and I think in the end that will cause her to go all native demon form. Another theory: If Angel so important in this world could it be possible that he will have his role in season 8 since Buffy is the core of well Buffyverse??
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Post by magicegidius on Sept 6, 2008 4:44:27 GMT -5
Just one word:
WOW
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Post by magicegidius on Sept 6, 2008 5:07:20 GMT -5
Has anybody noticed the hourglass and skull in the corners on the Wesley cover? They are symbols for the Angel of Death (or the Grim Reaper). And wesley is the person showing this vision to Angel. Coincidence?
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Post by faithswatcher on Sept 6, 2008 5:26:52 GMT -5
Another couple of things, hope not too annoying too much lol, just wana share my thought track.
Someone mentioned the discolouring when Fred changes to Illyria. Thats her time jumping? correct? I could be wrong, but frame one is the inside of the building, then its something metal like, like the thing she was kept inside in STF? and then frame 3, theres a hole in the wall. Frame 4 shes back to normal. Then she smashes through the wall. cool eh?
thought number 2: Its a very big hypothetical theory, but i like it. Angel chooses to "pass on" and die. Angelus had been seperated from Angels body. Hence angel being human. If they resouled Angelus, this would basically bring back Angel from the dead, right? All fanged up and vampire strength and all.
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Post by magicegidius on Sept 6, 2008 9:38:05 GMT -5
thought number 2: Its a very big hypothetical theory, but i like it. Angel chooses to "pass on" and die. Angelus had been seperated from Angels body. Hence angel being human. If they resouled Angelus, this would basically bring back Angel from the dead, right? All fanged up and vampire strength and all. I like! That would make the whole Shansu Prophecy make sense...because it can go right or wrong like the prophecy says. And Angel has to make his biggest sacrifice ever.
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balesthebloody
Wise-cracking Techno Genius
"Angel's gettin' some! Good on you mate!"[Mo0:0]
Posts: 733
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Post by balesthebloody on Sept 6, 2008 11:27:36 GMT -5
Loved the issue! When Connor said "Don't make me give Cordelia the okay to eat you." I sat in shock. That is when I knew that Cordy was back. I had called it from seeing the preview page that it was her. I loved all the Shanshu talk in this issue. Kinda makes you hate how vague prophecy's are at times. The Illyria stuff was great in this issue, she is really starting to lose it, I think. Poor Wesley, 'nuff said on that subject. I really do hope that we see Angelus come back at some point. From the, not taking it at face value, vision from W&H I think that we might see him again. I would love to have the pages, that Runge done, as a poster for my wall. This issue made me all misty eyed, the first time since I watched the shows! Great job Brian! Keep up the awesome work!!
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Post by Skytteflickan88 on Sept 6, 2008 11:35:55 GMT -5
*sigh*
Now I only have to wait about 20 days until I get it. But after this issue, my Angel interaction subscription will be over, and I can ship from England to Sweden instead. That should only take a week.
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brandonr
Potential Slayer
"That's mine." "Well you're about to get it back."[Mo0:0]
Posts: 168
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Post by brandonr on Sept 6, 2008 17:30:20 GMT -5
I meant to bring this up last night, but I wanted to ask everyone something about Fred. I thought it was confirmed that it was actually Fred that had returned and it wasn't just Illyria transforming into Fred? A comment from Wesley in issue #12 made me start to worry otherwise. I don't have the comic in front of me so I can't type up the quote, but it is during the scene where "Fred" is trying to figure out what has happened to Gunn, and Wesley says something to the effect of 'this is what Fred would do in this situation' leading me to believe that it wasn't actually Fred, but Illyria posing as Fred. So I'm just a little confused about the whole thing, as I thought Fred actually returned (hence the major cliffhanger with issue #5). Based on the #14 cover it appears as if Illyria becomes a main focus, and also from the #13 blurb we learn that Wesley is given an offer he "can't refuse," which naturally points to Fred as well, so I guess we'll just have to see over the next few issues just what exactly is up with Fredllyria. Wes's comment could be taken a couple of different ways. A) He could mean that Illryia-as-Fred is immitating exactly what Fred would do in that situation, and being more true to Fred's memory. OR B) He could mean that Fred is slipping back into her norm and doing things like she normally would in the situations that they've come across in the past. Personally, I don't think its really Fred as we knew her. There aren't two separate bodies. Fred and Illyria are in the same body, as evidenced by the changing of personalities and looks depending on what's going on around Fredlyria. In S5 the team surmised that the reason Illyria could morph into Fred was because while Fred's "soul" was obliterated and she could never come back, some of Fred's memories were still within the "shell" that Illyria occupied, thus making it possible for Illyria to switch between the two at will. There is no explicit answer where this is concerned. But here's my theory: Although the team said Fred's soul was completely gone in a it's-never-coming-back sort of way, I don't think that's necessarily true. The issue of exactly what makes up one's soul has never been fully explored on either Buffy or Angel. We do, of course, know that a soul can be equated with a conscience, as evidenced by Angel's actions as Angelus--he's evil, because he doesn't give a damn. But what truly make up the soul that gives Angel is conscience? When Angel was given his soul by the gypsies, all the memories of the hundreds of people he'd killed came flooding back to him, and he felt guily. Can we then surmise that it's MEMORIES that make up a person's soul? If so, then perhaps Fred's soul isn't completely gone like originally thought. If Fred's memories are getting strong enough to bring Fred out for extended periods of time without Illyria causing the transformation, then I think it's safe to assume that Fred still lies within Illyria somewhere. Of course, it could all be some huge manipulation caused by Wolfram and Hart, making Illyria act like that to incapcitate Spike and Wes emotionally, to throw them off, and to throw off the whole team, for that matter. Subtle torture is definitely not above W&H, and they're not too stupid to realize it. We can't be sure until we've all read Issue 17, but if they goal is to bring Fred back as her old self, her own person, perhaps the train of thought has something to do with the memories that Illyria possesses of Fred that allowed her to transform into Fred in the first place.
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Post by SlayerLV on Sept 7, 2008 2:55:03 GMT -5
This has got to be the best issue so far. First off yay!!! Cordy made an appearence!! It was great that we learned a lot more from Wesley about how W&H were planning everything before Angel's friends died. The vision that Wesley gave Angel was amazing. I love how Angel wanted to stay until he saw the vision of one of his fears and then tells Cordy that he's ready to leave.
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hostile47
Innocent Bystander
[Mo0:0]
Posts: 17
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Post by hostile47 on Sept 7, 2008 18:54:55 GMT -5
I am going have to agree with most of the comments in this thread, I think this issue was great!
One thing I really like so far in is how all of the characters are getting even development. Even characters like Nina, Groo, and Betta George who only get one or two pages here and there, it is always good to see them.
I liked how this issue reminded us of Angel's importance, and it was definitely good to see Cordy again. Very surprised about the Dragon name, that was perfect. Vampire Gunn has been interesting so far and each issue I feel more and more sorry for him, especially since he is technically dead, and is being used even after his death.
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indigo
Innocent Bystander
"We've got crosses on our eyes."[Mo0:8]
Posts: 20
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Post by indigo on Sept 9, 2008 13:15:13 GMT -5
Angel chooses to "pass on" and die. Angelus had been seperated from Angels body. Hence angel being human. If they resouled Angelus, this would basically bring back Angel from the dead, right? All fanged up and vampire strength and all. If they went this route, it probably wouldn't surprise me. If Angelus were loose in HelLA, though-- He probably would have been lord of the whole damn city.
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Post by fire2flame on Sept 9, 2008 15:16:35 GMT -5
Story's starting to remind me a lot of the episode in Season Four entitled "Awakening" where Wesley brings a ninja/shaman to extract Angel's soul by giving him the 'perfect' day. If it's Angel's hell, then is it possible that it's all happening in his mind? Part of me wouldn't be surprised if the whole story just ended up being a nightmare in Angel's head, or a nightmare in Angelus's head, for that matter, because Angelus never wanted the world fall into the hands of demons or devils- he wanted the world for himself just as it was.
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Post by cheungcheung on Sept 10, 2008 19:54:16 GMT -5
i thought the art was horrible......
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