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Post by AndrewCrossett on Dec 21, 2010 11:58:31 GMT -5
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Post by AndrewCrossett on Dec 14, 2010 16:48:32 GMT -5
I think the siring can still happen. Its more a blood ritual versus actual spells commiting the vamp-act. And proof being that Harth is sired in the future in Fray. So I imagine they will still be killing many people who think they are all sweet and sparkle... they almost deserve it, don't ya think? LOL Scott Allie said in a CBR interview:Harth and the "lurks" in Fray can exist because something happened that allowed the demons back in... there hadn't been any (or any new ones at least) for 200 years. Urkonn says this is why the Slayer line died out, although apparently he was mistaken about that. (The Slayer line ended because the source of their power was cut off with the destruction of the Seed.)
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Post by AndrewCrossett on Dec 13, 2010 16:26:33 GMT -5
It's gonna be an adjustment, Pat. I admit that I was hesitant at first, too, but I think it'll be cool. We just gotta dive in and have fun with it. As for losing old conversations, yeah the history of SA is something I'll miss. But it's on Archive. Basically, I look at it like Dead Threads from a few years ago. We get to start fresh. I've been thinking for all the comics threads that I might do a reread and post new reviews there. New content, new perspective after so much time has gone by. That's a good thing. Would it be possible to put a link, maybe at the top of each forum on the new site, pointing to the old archived forum on the old site? That would make it a lot easier to refer to the old conversations, and even copy-and-paste a quote to reply to something on the old site. I'm gonna get depressed looking at all those empty forums for the old season 8 arcs where the conversation is basically finished. It will be like looking at the empty corner in January after you've taken the Christmas tree down.
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Post by AndrewCrossett on Dec 11, 2010 8:20:29 GMT -5
I guess this means the "Ripper" project is officially dead and buried.
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Post by AndrewCrossett on Dec 11, 2010 0:22:54 GMT -5
Scott and Georges said that Buffy would be on every page, but Scott said earlier that there would be no meeting between Buffy and Angel. So I'm thinking Angel won't be in it at all.
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Post by AndrewCrossett on Dec 10, 2010 18:03:53 GMT -5
I think it would be cool if issue #40 is about Buffy trying to find Angel. While she's looking for him she meets up with several of the other characters and we get to see where things stand with them. She never does find Angel in this issue, and it's left completely ambiguous whether she's looking for him to talk to him, or to stake him. Once again, that's how I'd write it, so it's not how Joss will write it.
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Post by AndrewCrossett on Dec 10, 2010 16:48:24 GMT -5
I don't think the death will be anybody we know... the epilogue isn't the place for that kind of thing.
"Someone dies, but it isn't what you think" makes me remember Kennedy's mystical temporary death (which I would still like to have an explanation for)... but no more magic means no more magical deaths.
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Post by AndrewCrossett on Dec 10, 2010 12:22:19 GMT -5
I think that Whistler's line "She needs to feel powerless in order to find the ultimale power" hints that all these deaths were a necessary condition for her ascension. But her ascension was a bad thing, right? Twilight couldn't have happened without it. So why was Whistler trying to push for it to come about? (For that matter, how was the Twilight Being, or whatever you want to call it, able to talk to Angel before Angel and Buffy "gave birth" to it? Was this a Jasmine type of deal, where the being in question exists already in some form but needs to be "born" in order to come into full power? If so, where did it come from originally? What is it?)
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Post by AndrewCrossett on Dec 9, 2010 17:24:36 GMT -5
Buffy Summers, waitress extraordinaire doesn't seem to have the same ring. She wielded a pretty mean hunga-munga, though. Another minor point: when Aluwyn was talking up the end of magic to Willow, she said "the witches" would lose everything... not "you witches" or "you and the other witches." Could be she's more than a witch now. I've never been an advocate of the "Willow is a goddess" position... I don't see her with that level of power, even in season 8, and even with the relatively low bar on "god" status in the Buffyverse. (I mean, Olaf was a god? Olaf?) And I don't see why or how she would have become one... what makes her better than all the other women who studied magic real hard? She's only been using magic for six seasons... she wouldn't even be through Hogwarts yet for another year. And I hope something happens to pre-empt Willow's apparent fate in ToYL. Not just because I don't want to see such a sad end for Willow, but because I don't like knowing what's going to happen to characters before they happen. To me, it detracts from the story.
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Post by AndrewCrossett on Dec 9, 2010 17:11:06 GMT -5
The "death of magic" might be pretty overrated here. Seems like most of the magic we've seen during the series consisted of these "vestiges." The only change seems to be no more dimension-hopping, and no more throwing fireballs and lightning storms around like a World of Warcraft raid.
I'd really like to ask Scott about the status of vampires.
It might have been interesting if Joss had embraced this magic-death notion less half-assedly (full-assedly?) and just ruled that all magic goes away, period. Vampires dust, demons die, Slayers are depowered, Dawn vanishes, etc. Of course that would have also cost us Angel and Spike... but not necessarily. You could imagine that, having souls, those two would simply become human when magic ended. They'd both Shanshu.
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Post by AndrewCrossett on Dec 9, 2010 15:05:12 GMT -5
And it's not like the Slayers really disappeared. According to Urkonn, "the line continued -- there were girls with the power, but they were never Called, never trained." Which could be taken to mean that Potentials still existed, but were never Called. But they weren't fighting vampires. To me, it just makes much more sense to go with the "vampires can't sire anymore" explanation. It's perfectly plausible, and it's right in line with what we know about the future. Also, if vampires and Slayers get to keep their magical natures, I submit that Willow should too. It was made pretty clear in season 7 that she was no longer just a user of magic, but was magical herself. She may have lost her connection to Aluwyn, but she should still be able to use magic. She should be one of the "vestiges."
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Post by AndrewCrossett on Dec 9, 2010 14:01:28 GMT -5
As for your anti-vampire propagation argument, that works under the assumption that vampires frequently sire. People are generally regarded as food. Creating more vampires creates competition... ecologically, that's usually not desirable. Therefore, I don't necessarily believe that the vampire population would've exploded, even without an active Slayer. Doug Sanders in "Disharmony" wanted a system by which vampires carefully allocate their kills between siring and eating, to maintain their population. The Master in "The Wish" seemed to have a similar system on a much larger scale, and from a position of rulership rather than stealth. But even a slow population growth of vampires will become overwhelming once the Slayer line dies out altogether. 50 years from now you'd have a vampire population at least the same size as it is now, if not larger, and no Slayers at all to keep them in check.
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Post by AndrewCrossett on Dec 9, 2010 13:47:11 GMT -5
- Even stranger, with the mainstreaming of vamprism into society in Season 8, why are they considered lurks? Apparently their fad runs out and they eventually are looked upon as diseased creatures. Or the people of Fray's time don't remember vampires from the last time they existed. Something seems to have happened between now and then that cut Frayverse people off from knowledge of the past. The events of season 8 should be a major part of history, immortalized in print and digital form for all time... but Mel has to rely on an obscure library of handwritten books to find out anything at all about our era. It can't be that there was some kind of intervening "Dark Age," because technology has continued to evolve to the point of flying cars and whatnot. This, and the discrepancies in Urkonn's account of the "Battle of Starbucks," strike me as evidence (not proof) of diverging timelines. Anybody notice that the spell that sent Buffy to Fray's time in ToYL was the same one that sent her to see the Shadowmen in "Get It Done" -- complete with the demon exchange? Was that literally a time travel spell, or something else?
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Post by AndrewCrossett on Dec 9, 2010 13:15:34 GMT -5
I am fine with the world resting from magic for 200 years - and then the Seed healing itself gradually. I'm not, really, although I'm open to what Joss has in mind if he opts to go that route. For me, "Buffy" without magic would be like "Star Trek" without space. It would take a pretty gripping story to hold my interest. Yup. The question is though - how to look at this situation and how to consider what FDW does in the end - as a greatest personal sacrifice yet that makes the world live on, or as a descent into madness ending with vengeful self-destruct. I'm not sure how possible it is to write an engaging story about a protagonist who can't ever be in danger... and knows she can't ever be in danger. Here I tend to agree with you. But they probably will fanwank this. As they fanwanked the ensouled vampires keeping their souls. No need to wank it... there will still be enough vamps and demons for the current batch of Slayers to stay occupied with. As I said (if we can trust anything Urkonn told Melaka), vampires and demons disappear until Fray's time. Though Urkonn seemed to have some of his facts wrong (e.g., claiming that all demons were banished at once, and that the Slayers died out due to lack of vampires to fight). Keeping the balance is not quite the same as getting your own world annihilated via your own efforts. Just think about it - Whistler is a local demon - Twilight wins - Whistler goes puff together with all our world, evil , good , etc. And our local PTB's lose their world. Giles brought the local demons as a 'cavalry' exactly because of that clause. Whistler has no logical reasons for wanting this world to end therefore he has no logical reasons to make Angel go smack Buffy just to keep the balance. Therefore - assuming Whistler told the truth - and I have had confirmations from a reliable source that he was providing a reliable info - the plot of S8 is not as simple as 'Angel gets duped into almost destroying the world.' Whistler clearly had very little specific idea what he was talking about... he saw several possible futures, and in the only one where humanity survives, Angel put on the Twilight mask and became Buffy's enemy. But the paradox is, Angel would probably never have put on the mask unless Whistler told him to... so Whistler was kicking off the very Apocalypse he claimed to be trying to defeat. Wouldn't it make more sense for Whistler to say, "Oh, by the way, if you listen to a talking dog and put on a luchador mask, bad things are gonna happen... so don't." So the question is... if Whistler was being honest... what other, even worse Apocalypse did Angel evade by bringing about the Twilight Apocalypse? Again, I'll point out that vampires can still sire in the future. Harth Fray is one such example, since he was sired by Icarus. But that's in the Frayverse future, not in the intervening time. Clearly something happened shortly before the beginning of "Fray" that caused magic (and vampires, and demons, and Slayers) to be allowed back into this world, with their powers intact. If vampires are going to continue to sire after season 8, then the world is in big trouble, because that means vampires are eternal but Slayers are now only temporary. In that scenario, vampires and demons would have overrun the world, Wishverse-style, long before we got to the time of Fray.
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Post by AndrewCrossett on Dec 9, 2010 11:59:38 GMT -5
Well, assuming that each main title runs about 20 issues, and you factor in the minis, you're looking at a project that will span about 50 issues. I'm paraphrasing here, but Allie did say that you'll get more comics, but in a shorter period of time. It'll be 50 issues or so in about 2 years, vs. 40 issues (excluding miscellaneous one-shots) over the course of 4+ years. I'll bet they do it along the same lines as Marvel and DC "events" like Darkest Night, Brightest Day, Infinite Crisis, etc. Start with a single miniseries that sets up the season and gives us the events that set everything in motion... then split things up among a whole bunch of concurrent miniseries (Marvel and DC often hijack existing ongoing series temporarily and pull them into the Event). In the end, everything comes together in a concluding miniseries for the big finish. I think Scott said the plan was for there to be a new Buffy title out most weeks, so that would mean 3 or 4 going at any given time.
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Post by AndrewCrossett on Dec 9, 2010 11:54:36 GMT -5
Could Fray's world be one where Buffy never broke the seed, and thus the scythe is still intact? It's interesting, because all we know at the end of ToYL is that Fray's world didn't come undone when Buffy returned to the past... meaning that her actions won't prevent Mel from becoming a Slayer and eventually winding up on that rooftop in Haddyn. But... we only see Mel and Erin on that rooftop, we don't know what might have changed for them in terms of their context and their memories. If their pasts changed because of Buffy's actions, they wouldn't realize it... they'd simply have the new memories as if they were always there.
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Post by AndrewCrossett on Dec 9, 2010 11:45:41 GMT -5
I don't believe they will reverse the banishment of magic - Joss wants to connect to the Fray comic and it looks like we are 'almost' there. But Scott has told us that the future we've seen in Fray and ToYL is not immutable. He's also said they don't intend to retcon that story out of existence by changing the timeline. The only way to change that future for Willow without changing it for Fray would be separate timelines. I just don't think the Buffyverse works without magic. It's part and parcel of the setting, and they're going to have to find some way to get it back in some form. I've said before that looking for native magic from this world (which is what Wiccans are supposed to do anyway) might be the answer. If the future is taken to be immutable, then we're left with Willow knowing that, although she has an unpleasant future and end ahead of her, she is completely indestructible for the next 200 years, no matter what. What remains to be seen is how the earthly demons are going to be disposed of - if at all. The already called Slayers will die from natural process of aging and other natural causes over the next 70 years. Joss can take gradual approach and imply that 39 was the battle of Starbucks and that Willow cooked the books later on so that actual opening of the portal and banishing the demons won't be needed - or the source of magic - small one can be brought in. Or the PtBs can step in - although I suspect they are severed from Earth now same way that Saga and the Hell denizens are. It would be interesting to ask if vampires can still procreate in this new environment - ie turn others ? I still maintain that vampire siring requires the arrival of a demonic spirit from outside, and therefore can't happen. Aluwyn wasn't totally clear on the point... she said vampires would remain, but didn't specify whether they'd still be able to sire. But "Fray" tells us that vampires died out after the "Battle of Starbucks," which is why no new Slayers are called. So I think it's pretty clear they can't sire, and that the remaining Slayers will eventually cull the remaining vamps and demons. Astral lion thingy was not of this realm - not connected to our own local PTB's in any way. Thus it got banished when the Seed was broken. Whistler, on other hand, was here all since S1 and is of local demonkind, serving local powers. Balance or not, our local PTB's would not go for destroying the world they are watching over - and Twilight was all about total consumption and replacement. I don't think Whistler was serving Twilight, but he was pretty clear that Buffy and the Slayers had to be smacked down, and that he didn't really care much about that... he was pretty dismissive of Buffy and of Angel's love for her, despite knowing from his own experience that she fights for good. I don't believe Whistler has any particular fondness for good people as opposed to evil ones. They're all just weights on a scale that has to be kept in balance.
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Post by AndrewCrossett on Dec 9, 2010 11:12:40 GMT -5
Scott said season 9 will be about dealing with the consequences of breaking the Seed and banishing magic.
You'd think that means finding a way to bring magic back, but it's not clear how doing that now would square with the Fray future.
Maybe different timelines will come into play after all.
ETA: I think Whistler is a friendly guy, but not really a "good" guy. He's a balance demon, and balance means you serve good or evil as you must in order to bring things into balance. I think his actions with Angel this season were in the service of evil, because Buffy had tipped the scales too far toward good.
ETA Again: Angel is now at the lowest point we've ever seen him since regaining his soul... including his rat-eating days. He's going to have to make a long, long journey up from that before I'll buy him putting a crew together and going about his business again.
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Post by AndrewCrossett on Dec 9, 2010 9:18:38 GMT -5
I never said it was "not okay" for IDW to put out all those comics. I think they were doing it in order to squeeze as much money as possible out of the license. That's business, and it's fine for the people who must have everything with Angel's name on it, but it completely lost my interest.
The season 9 comics will all be canonical, and will all be telling the same story from different viewpoints. The point is to get as much story as we got in season 8, but not grow old and grey while waiting to see how it ends.
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Post by AndrewCrossett on Dec 9, 2010 8:42:48 GMT -5
It seems like it was implied that the Scythe was the only thing that could destroy it... like a magical self-destruct mechanism. Willow and the others were concerned about "protecting the Seed," which seems like it would have been unnecessary if they had the only weapon that could hurt it. But it may have been much easier for someone to take the Seed away rather than destroy it (which would have ended our world).
Melaka Fray has the Scythe 200 years in the future, which either means Buffy's got repaired, or somebody (Willow?) made another one. I lean toward the latter explanation, because Buffy's and Mel's Scythes were able to exist simultaneously in the same world at the same time. But the Buffyverse has wonky rules when it comes to paradoxes.
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