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Post by AndrewCrossett on Mar 4, 2010 14:36:36 GMT -5
I loved this issue. Buffy kissing Angel after everything he's done does not surprise me. Love isn't logical. It makes the strrongest, most powerful, most independent women do the wacky. It's a completely serious thing. I've seen it happen, and have been a victim of this emotion. Even though Buffy is an icon of feminism, she's still a woman, and still human. Humans make mistakes, especially humans in love. It goes back to "I Was Made to Love You".... For Buffy to persist in her "love" under these circumstances goes well beyond "illogical" and into the realm of "pathological", IMO. These are not healthy feelings, and they will destroy her if she doesn't learn to move beyond them.
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Post by AndrewCrossett on Mar 4, 2010 11:47:53 GMT -5
I believe, BTW, that this arc is the last we'll ever see of the "Scooby Gang," as we've known it. I think there are going to be rifts opening up here that are just not going to heal.
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Post by AndrewCrossett on Mar 4, 2010 11:12:14 GMT -5
(and is there a reason to be satsu, and not dawn?) Because it's more painful. Satsu is a) in love with Buffy, and now witnessing her self-destructively getting it on with someone else, and b) a Slayer, watching Buffy betray her and her entire "sisterhood."
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Post by AndrewCrossett on Mar 4, 2010 10:08:48 GMT -5
Did they add the Twilight symbol to Riley's chest in the scene of him lying on the floor talking to Buffy?
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Post by AndrewCrossett on Mar 4, 2010 8:30:17 GMT -5
You know what I think bothers me the most? That Buffy has always been such an icon of positive feminism, and that Joss has always been so proud of that, and this story just turns her into a lame centerfold for Battered Woman Syndrome. The soundtrack for the final scene of this issue should be that old song "He Hit Me (It Felt Like a Kiss)".
That, and the fact that 206 dead Slayers apparently rate no more than a 5-minute temper tantrum from Buffy before she's off sucking face with their killer (or the person she believes to be their killer... doesn't make any difference). Wherever they are, I'm sure they're happy to know Buffy has their back [/sarcasm]. I hope that's what Xander and Satsu and Willow are thinking, too.
Buffy being under some kind of magical effect would explain things, but if so it also means she's about to be raped, since the title of the next issue promises "They F@#%". (Unless that's a joke and it turns out to mean "They Fight" or "They Fly" or "They Facebook" or something.)
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Post by AndrewCrossett on Mar 4, 2010 0:59:07 GMT -5
No, I didn't miss the post you were quoting. However, it's in the context of the response to that post that your reply came across as possibly elitist. As I said, I didn't think it was your intent, but I just wanted to point out that it could be construed as such. I don't see it, but noted. I'm just coming to realize what a percentage of my posts over recent weeks have been negative in tone. That can't be healthy, and it can't be very pleasant for the rest of the board. This is the best place on the net for season 8 discussion, but I don't want to become that guy who everyone dreads seeing posts from. Time to make some decisions, I guess.
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Post by AndrewCrossett on Mar 4, 2010 0:36:40 GMT -5
I don't think it was your intent, but your quoted comment insinuates that your feelings take primacy because the story is very important to you, insinuating that it's not as important to the rest of us not slamming our fists down hard. As I said, probably not your intent, but it does come across as you being more entitled, based on your emotional proximity to the story. Did you miss the quoted text directly above that statement? My statement was a direct response to that... the suggestion that I shouldn't get "carried away" because the topic isn't important enough. I think it is important enough. That's all. No deep, dark elitist agenda.
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Post by AndrewCrossett on Mar 3, 2010 23:49:47 GMT -5
Okay...not to sound rude, but some people need to stop getting carried away about these turn of events (Buffy kissing Angel). Expressing a strong opinion is not "getting carried away," and is in fact the very purpose of a message board like this. Just keep going with the story like everyone else has already said to the end. If I can do so without it being a painful experience, I will. Right now, the signs are doubtful. This isn't the end of the world, and honestly, there are more important things going on in the world then two fictional characters making out. xD This story is very important to some of us. If I'm only allowed to react to the most important thing in the world, I won't have very much to do online.
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Post by AndrewCrossett on Mar 3, 2010 22:09:42 GMT -5
Having carefully read the entire issue, I can say that Buffy's gullibility is definitely disappointing here, to say the least. Xander's long-ago assertion that Buffy's brain shuts down whenever her demon boyfriend is in sight is unfortunately still as true today as it was then.
Just about everything Angel says to her is a transparent lie. He starts out feeding her the whopper that he "hasn't killed anyone," then quickly switches over to telling her they would have been hunted and killed as terrorists anyway (although, as she points out to her momentary credit, there was no anti-Slayer sentiment, or any reason for it, until he appeared on the scene.)
He tells her that expanding the Slayer roster was somehow "unbalancing," although you could hardly find a more unbalanced situation than one teenaged girl with a pointy stick trying to fight thousands or millions of vampires and demons. How could making more Slayers do anything other than help bring things further into balance, not further out?
And finally, these pathetic "can you feel the power" lines clearly designed to get her in the sack for some reason we haven't been let in on yet.
And as we close with a shot of Bella Buffy macking on her sparkly vampire, one has to wonder how Joss came so quickly to be reduced to doing inferior Stephanie Meyer ripoffs.
I feel especially bad for Satsu, who had a front-row seat with Willow to witness her former lover/idol lose every scrap of dignity she possessed. She must be feeling like she dodged a bullet right about now.
I suppose some of Angel's spiel might have sounded convincing to those who didn't get a behind-the-scenes look at what he was actually doing... shrugging as Warren fired missiles Buffy's home, sending boatloads of Vampy Cats to mind-rape and kill the world's children, having his own employees dragged off and killed for minor whims, making bizarre non-sequitur death threats against Giles and Faith and Andrew.
I loathed this issue from the very bottom of my heart... more than I ever thought I could hate something with Joss's name on it. Next issue, going by the title, is going to be all about them having sex. Whoopee.
Angel's behavior has been erratic over the last couple of issues, so there may be some truth to Emmie's theory that he's not in his right mind. I hope so, but I've learned better than to count on things like that.
Such a sorry development for a series that I loved so much.
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Post by AndrewCrossett on Mar 3, 2010 17:24:53 GMT -5
A/C, I really do think the glow thing is messing with Buffy's head. If that's the case, then I guess Angel is about to accomplish what Spike couldn't in "Seeing Red." Either that, or some outside force is going to be raping them both with each other's bodies.
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Post by AndrewCrossett on Mar 3, 2010 17:16:26 GMT -5
People are so pissed about the kiss, but im not even sure she was herself during that. Something felt off and if u look at her on the Twilight TPB she looks stoned outta her mind which really makes me think somethings up with all this. I hope so, because frankly that kiss is what makes all the difference.
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Post by AndrewCrossett on Mar 3, 2010 16:57:59 GMT -5
So...you mean like how Buffy took those same girls from those same families, and threw them into a war? What makes her so much better, really? Hell, in ways she's worse than Angel. Yes, he killed them(Maybe) but she's the one who put them in the line of fire to begin with. How come Buffy isn't getting your ire for that, but Angel's getting attacked for it? She took them from their families, lives, friends, AND dreams. She put them in the fight, by choice or otherwise. Her hands aren't clean for this and if they are, I'd love to know how. Please show me where it's said that Buffy took anyone from their lives against their will? All of the girls in Buffy's organization are there voluntarily. Angel's actions are pretty much based on, "Hey, they're soldiers... somebody needs to kill them." Buffy's intentions with the Slayer army have been nothing but noble and, until now, her actions have been as well. Not always correct, but noble. And now, she's kissing the self-appointed executioner of her friends. Hence my comment on how much these people seem to value life.
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Post by AndrewCrossett on Mar 3, 2010 16:51:48 GMT -5
AC, did you like Season 6? 'cause that was a nasty and disgusting story about people doing nasty and disgusting things... It's my least favorite season of the TV show, except for OMWF, but I don't really see the parallel in scale or intent to what's happening now. I can't enjoy a story if I feel nothing but contempt for the "heroes." I didn't feel that way in season 6, but I'm coming to feel it now in season 8.
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Post by AndrewCrossett on Mar 3, 2010 16:39:09 GMT -5
The entire war was nasty and disgusting, and it ended as such. But that's the thing. I don't want to read a nasty and disgusting story about people doing nasty and disgusting things... especially when they're being done to good, heroic people. I know the Slayers are cannon fodder and I'm not supposed to feel so much empathy for them, but I can't help it. They're young girls who had families and friends and lives and plans and dreams for the future, but now they're grease spots on the pavement so some great champion can make his quota of "lives saved." Lemon-juice eye rinse, anyone? And, really? The cheap shot "I value life more than you folks I guess" coming from certain users is a whole new definition of arrogance. If your reading comprehension was as keen as you seem to think it is, you'd realize I was directing that comment at the characters in the story, not the posters here. Nobody has actually been killed here, as much as it seems like it. And I'll continue in my opinions, thank you, just as well as you will in yours.
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Post by AndrewCrossett on Mar 3, 2010 16:23:12 GMT -5
But the point isn't that Angel killed the same number of girls. Let's say Angel is telling the truth here. What if instead of two hundred killed by a Twilight headed group, it would have been two thousand girls killed by a non-Twilight headed group. Let's say Angel saved potentially save 1800 slayers by controlling the group. How evil is he then? How wrong was he in doing this? How many lives do you take to save others? Well, I've posted before about my dread that Joss would try to turn morality into a game of mathematics... kill a million people to save a million and one, and call it a good day's work. But if that's the story Joss is selling, I'm afraid I don't want any today. Makes me sad. I've enjoyed so much of what he's done.
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Post by AndrewCrossett on Mar 3, 2010 15:57:24 GMT -5
Well, his argument to Buffy during the fight is essentially that people were going to go after Slayers anyway after they got empowered by the Scythe, I just went on the inside and tried to keep the body count low. "I killed all those girls so they wouldn't be killed by all those nasty people out there instead. You wouldn't want them to be killed by perfect strangers, would you?"
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Post by AndrewCrossett on Mar 3, 2010 15:50:02 GMT -5
Honestly, I think this has been Joss's point the whole time. These people are heroes despite the fact that they've done horrible, terrible things. They make mistakes. Big ones. Huge, killing lots of people kind of mistakes. Where has anyone made a "mistake" here? The things Angel has done were not only deliberate, but carefully planned and obviously a source of satisfaction to him. No mistakes there. As for Buffy kissing him, that's not a mistake. That's brain death. Or, more accurately, soul death.
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Post by AndrewCrossett on Mar 3, 2010 15:43:30 GMT -5
I hope Satsu kicks some Twilight ass soon. I have to say, this has caused me to go cold-turkey off my long-cherished Batsu fandom. Satsu is awesome and deserves far, far better. This isn't the first time Buffy has done something impulsive. Her middle name should be impulsive (Annepulsive?). This well and truly crosses the line from "impulsive" to "hateful."
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Post by AndrewCrossett on Mar 3, 2010 15:20:15 GMT -5
I think than in order for this story to make any lick of sense at all, one has to accept the counter-intuitive truth that neither Buffy nor Angel are heroes.
They are protagonists, they've done some heroic things, but they ain't heroes. They've both tried to be, but they've both failed.
It's a very, very unusual approach to take in a story like this. But this is Joss Whedon, I guess.
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Post by AndrewCrossett on Mar 3, 2010 14:11:35 GMT -5
AndrewCosset: Ever considered the possibility that Buffy might be under a spell? As her history with love spell shows, she wouldn't even notice it if that was the case. In that case, she's probably about to be raped. Wonderful.
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