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Post by Wyndam on Dec 19, 2009 23:41:13 GMT -5
In terms of the close friendships in the Buffyverse (Buffy/Willow, Buffy/Xander, Willow/Xander, Angel/Cordy and Angel/Wesley), Angel and Wesley always had the most subdued, and yet I wouldn’t classify them as anything less than best friends. Ironically, their friendship was at its best after Season 4. Part of that was because Wesley’s memories were altered, but even after he regained them, their friendship never really took another hit. Angel confided in Wesley the most, where he’d usually put on a brave face when all of Team Angel were together.
“Soul Purpose” comes to mind where Angel assured everyone he was fine, but it wasn’t until he was alone with Wesley that he let down his guard and claimed he might be sick. Even though this was just a dream, it’s still telling of their relationship. I've always compared them to Han and Luke from Star Wars who are very much the best of friends (especially in the Extended Universe), but won't ever say that they are "best friends."
Then there was the very much dead Wesley in After the Fall that was with Angel from beginning to end. Helped keep Angel alive, shield the fact he was human, and kept Wolfram and Hart at bay, all the while not being able to touch anything.
But anyway, I’ve been wondering for a while: Now that Wesley is dead and gone, who will, in a sense, become Angel’s next Wesley?
There are a few possibilities:
Connor: The most obvious choice, as he and Angel have the closest bond right now. A lot of this would depend on Connor though, as I don’t know if he’s ready to give advice that his dad could use. Willingham has even said that Connor is going to have to learn that Angel tends to get things right, and follow his lead every now and again. Angel can and certainly will confide in Connor, but I feel that this could be a one way street type thing, especially when comparing it to what Angel and Wesley had. Connor is still young and isn’t done making mistakes, but I am sure that the current arc will be good for Connor, so this is a wait and see type thing.
Gunn: Not counting Kate or Spike, as they haven’t been permanent figures in Angel’s post-soul life, Gunn is Angel’s “oldest” friend currently. They haven’t always been close, and their friendship has always been more about “respect” than confiding in one another. With the events of After the Fall though, they share some things in common. Gunn feels responsible about everything that he did as a soulless vampire, not unlike you know who. Gunn even killed Angel’s son; (temporary) removed Connor from Angel’s life. That’s not exactly unlike what happened with Wesley, where Connor was believed dead after getting sent to Quor’toth. The subdued nature of Wesley and Angel’s friendship would also work well with these two.
Kate: This is probably the one I’d like to see develop a lot. There is just a lot of potential here. I wouldn’t even mind if something romantic developed eventually, but I also think that Kate could fulfill this role perfectly. I could see Kate becoming Angel’s right hand (wo)man, his first lieutenant, whatever. They have a rocky history, but it ended on good terms and has resurfaced because of that original friendship. It will be interesting to see how Willingham balances all of the characters, but how he develops Kate is something I am most interested in.
While I don’t think anyone left in Angel’s life will fill that friendship role that Cordy and especially Wesley once did, it is definitely interesting wondering how this new team will develop together.
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Post by Wyndam on Dec 19, 2009 23:10:25 GMT -5
I don't like IGN's comic reviews because they generally miss the mark on very key issues (such as not getting past their dislike of Connor and accepting him as a well developed character with a lot of potential). No one that is as entrenched in the Buffyverse as those on Buffy forums and sites have gone "Eh, Connor...Really?" yet, which is why I'm taking issue with IGN (as well as issues with past reviews). I've already said IGN is one of my favorite websites, but their comic reviews just plain suck. And again, using numerical systems as a basis of comparison is perhaps the messiest part of this whole argument. There are so many elements that go into a reviews numerical score, usually more than can even be written and established in a review. You might compare Pat's review of "Boys" to "The Body" and find it insulting, but Joe Schmoe in Arkansas might consider "Boys" to be the best piece of Buffyverse fiction ever created. It's just impossible to even argue this, because everyone perceives this stuff differently. So that's why I've got to stop, because it just goes around and around. But falling under this whole "respect personal opinion" umbrella, Pat doesn't get to call E's opinion that Willingham's dialogue was "pathetic" hyperbole. Pat was just expressing his own opinion about Ethan's opinion. Like I said, around and around.
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Post by Wyndam on Dec 19, 2009 22:51:26 GMT -5
But again, this is all subjective. Flaws to you aren't flaws to someone else. A 10/10 to someone is a 1/10 to someone else. This is where I get annoyed, especially when phases like "it put's the review's rating scale into question" are used because I find that to be incredibly disrespectful to the reviewer. Discrediting a reviewers personal opinion because of a differing opinion goes against the entire system of reviews and scales in the first place. In the end of the day, a review is a review and a number is just a number, there is never a consensus or a set of guidelines that has to be followed. Heck, I even know some reviewers that review (with a numerical scale) based purely on the enjoyment factor of a particular media, and not how many flaws it has or what it gets "right." These types of arguments get extremely messy though (as all arguments based around opinions do) so this is the last time I'm even mentioning it, because that's not what this thread is even about.
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Post by Wyndam on Dec 19, 2009 22:10:49 GMT -5
I don't want to speak for Pat, but I don't think he means "Perfection" when he gives a 10/10 score. Everything has flaws, and anyone that says otherwise is being extremely naive (even when someone says something is perfect, they can't truly mean it, not 100%). We're just arguing semantics now which just gets messy as it is all subjective (the best comic book in the world according to someone is pretty much guaranteed to be someone elses least favorite comic), especially when it comes to review scores. The worst flame wars on the internet usually revolve around reviews scores (usually video games), but basically all I want to say is that Pat didn't mean "Boys and Their Toys" was perfect, just that it succeeded in everything he wanted it too. But again, I'll let Pat explain it because they are his reviews.
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Post by Wyndam on Dec 19, 2009 19:26:56 GMT -5
That Willow text with the Buffy logo in the "O" is fantastic.
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Post by Wyndam on Dec 19, 2009 18:10:12 GMT -5
Yeah, definitely, plus I believe it was said that: Innovation Labs is siring movie stars.
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Post by Wyndam on Dec 19, 2009 17:56:06 GMT -5
In #28 Angel said that his blood was getting pumped out of him, and new blood pumped in. I wonder, then, if his blood is being used to sire other people without him having any bodily control over it whatsoever? It would be an interesting spin on how vampires have been sired in the Buffyverse, but it makes sense, considering that blood is all that really does it (the act of biting just used as a tool to drain the victims. So Innovation Labs is sucking Angel's blood out, injecting it into whoever they are vamping, and then sucking their blood out and injecting it into Angel. I'm already looking forward to the royal ass kicking Angel will eventually dish out.
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Post by Wyndam on Dec 19, 2009 13:03:49 GMT -5
uk.comics.ign.com/articles/105/1055978p1.htmlIGN gave it a very mediocre review but I disagree with some of their opinions. For one thing, they have serious prejudice against Connor and his use in this story, ignoring the great development and surge of popularity he's experienced recently. I hated Connor on the show as well, but I got over it. So should IGN. I agree, when someone completely misses the mark for Connor's purpose in this issue and arc as a whole, it is hard to take the review seriously. I've never liked IGN's comic book reviews anyway, especially when it comes to Buffyverse comics as I'm not really sure a lot of them really "get" the Buffyverse or are even truly fans of it. which is kind of funny considering I use IGN as my primary site for gaming news/reviews.
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Post by Wyndam on Dec 18, 2009 22:36:16 GMT -5
So if no one ever leaves the Attic, how did Dominic get out in Epitaph One? Also... isn't the Attic pretty extreme? Are the dolls left there even when their contracts are up? Hope we get a better understanding on Bennet and Caroline's past experiences together. Too bad that Dollhouse is almost over. Adelle lets Dominic out because she felt sorry for him (in Epitaph One). And only Dolls that prove troublesome and disruptive to Rossum go to the Attic, not all of them end up there (Mellie and Victor were freed, for example).
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Post by Wyndam on Dec 18, 2009 22:32:34 GMT -5
I don't know about Bennett being Clyde 2.0. C2.0 was said to do whatever it was told to do, and Bennett kind of went and did her own thing out of personal revenge on Caroline. It's still interesting to think about and I love how mythology heavy this episode was, as well as balancing some great character stuff (heck, even Dominic went through some changes).
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Post by Wyndam on Dec 18, 2009 22:11:27 GMT -5
Best episode yet. Simply amazing.
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Post by Wyndam on Dec 18, 2009 17:38:38 GMT -5
ANGEL-US make sure you are double checking the forums you are posting your threads in, so we don't have to keep moving them around. Your Watcher should be able to help you out with the correct forums and stuff as well.
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Post by Wyndam on Dec 18, 2009 17:32:39 GMT -5
Yeah Kristen Stewart was pretty good in Adventureland, Into the Wild and Panic Room.
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Post by Wyndam on Dec 18, 2009 12:11:23 GMT -5
Well, the first issue SOLD OUT (congrats!), and will be reprinted and shipped out again on January 6, 2010. It will also get a new cover (by Brian Denham) as well:
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Post by Wyndam on Dec 17, 2009 17:57:48 GMT -5
So... anyone having problems with the Mac version of this? It doesn't load pages fully a lot of the time, and I end up refreshing several times most of the time. Grrr.... I haven't noticed that, but I have only really used it to browse this forum and run Big Brother. I am annoyed though that when I do Command+Click on the "Home" button it doesn't open it up into a new tab like Safari and Firefox do. I have to do Command+T and then click "Home."
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Post by Wyndam on Dec 17, 2009 11:36:07 GMT -5
I don't really think "it's the first issue" can be used as an excuse though. Both Joss and Brian knocked it out of the park with their first issues, setup and character. Sure, there were a lot of character's in that scene, but why should that matter? He had around six pages to introduce them all and all we got was stilted, unfunny dialogue. I don't understand how it'd be hard to judge the voices based on one issue, since we've been with these characters for years. I see where you're coming from though, there wasn't a lot of room, but what room Willingham had he didn't use well. There's definitely room for improvement when everything gets spaced out, but then again, I said the same thing about Aftermath. I didn't say this being a first issue was the sole excuse, just that it was a factor. Joss and Brian weren’t new to the ‘verse either (Joss for obvious reasons and Brian with his two original Spike series). And to use After the Fall as a comparison for the characters, it does matter. In the first issue of AtF all we had was Angel, Wesley and Gunn (and only Angel and Wesley interacted). That is a huge difference than this where you have 8 characters interacting, especially since that scene wasn’t the focus of the issue, which resulted in only 6 pages to introduce everyone (which Willingham did just fine), as opposed to 22 pages in AtF #1 where 3 characters were allowed to breathe. If you can’t see any differences there and why it would matter then… And again about the voices, was anyone actually expecting Willingham to get them ALL pitch perfect? I know Willingham’s awesomeness has been established with Fables, but that’s a bit too ambitious of expectations, especially when we were all disappointed with Aftermath. Plus again, not the focus of the issue anyway, so I’m not even dwelling on it (plus I thought they were fine enough for a new writer ). - A few things I would like to see explained or gone into. Gunn,Illyria and Spike weren't around during the Aftermath arc so we never saw them introduced to James and Dez. Yet here they are chatting as if they knew them already. Would have preferred if it had been shown them all meeting. Small point, but would have made it more acceptable Also.. I thought about that too, but since Spike is talking about a Vegas trip, I think it is safe to say that some time has passed since #27, so he’s had plenty of time to meet them. Plus I doubt that scene would be that interesting enough to include anyway (I’d imagine Spike would only say one or two words to them and go about his day). -Gunn and Connor. Gunn *killed* Connor. Would be nice if that was addressed and they werent all fine and dandy now like nothing happened. I thought about this too (lol), and I’m just assuming that Willingham is saving this for later issues. Willingham has said it himself that Gunn “is a mess” so he hasn’t forgotten about what’s happened. I doubt the scene would have benefitted much from Gunn and Connor giving each other some awkward looks, and Gunn would most likely rather put on a brace face when in a room with so many people. Willingham probably wants to save this stuff for when Gunn and Connor are alone. Plus, with Eddie Hope in the series now, I’d imagine he definitely would want to get his hands on Gunn, which will bring up those issues naturally anyway. I need to stop typing so much before I get fired.
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Post by Wyndam on Dec 17, 2009 11:00:59 GMT -5
While I can understand some of the criticisms about the page where we meet the new team (I even said myself that I would have liked some background imagery), I can also understand how hard those pages would be to get “right” in a first issue with a new team. It was important for Willingham to show us who the new Team Angel was, which means including EVERYONE in a first issue. If he had half the team in this issue and the rest show up in issue #2, it would the team fractured and disjointed (After the Fall was the exact opposite, as the team was supposed to be fractured and disjointed). So in that respect, I am glad everyone is in this first issue.
As a first issue that is mostly set up (as it should be), I found very little faults. There are certain disadvantages though, when you want to have all eight members of Team Angel in one scene, all talking (plus the conversation was pretty light which has been rare for the series). Not everyone will get to say much (Georgia and Illyria), and since 3 of the characters are relatively new (George, James and Dez), it can seem like the voices bleed together a bit. So I get that. But given the limited amount of speech that we were given from Spike, Gunn, Illyria and Kate, I thought Willingham did perfectly fine. It’s hard to judge voices in a first issue anyway, especially with so many characters. Once the characters have something to do and are out doing it, they’ll be easier to pick apart and examine.
The same can pretty much be said about Denham’s art in that scene as well, since he wanted to make sure he got the faces right (again, 8 characters), than worry about background visuals.
That’s just how I looked at it anyway.
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Post by Wyndam on Dec 17, 2009 1:08:32 GMT -5
I meant to bring this up in my other post, but I liked the line where Connor mentions Angel wanted to eventually rename Angel Investigations to Angel and Son Investigations. I wonder if Angel mentioned that when he was happy (for like two weeks) with infant Connor, or if it was more recent?
Since Connor remembers being in Darla's womb, thanks to W&H, he would remember his father mentioning it as a child. If it was more recent, then it gives a nice idea about how their relationship has improved. Something interesting to think about at least.
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Post by Wyndam on Dec 17, 2009 1:02:06 GMT -5
I'll also probably consolidate the After the Fall and Interaction sub-boards once I add another sub-board or two, just so we don't have so many on the main page. May even add the Spike: After the Fall sub-board into the AtF one eventually too.
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Post by Wyndam on Dec 17, 2009 0:56:44 GMT -5
I like to keep the current arc on the main board, since those topics are more popular and shouldn't really need two clicks or more to reach. Once the arc ends or the next HC is announced, I'll make the sub-board. I'll also make a sub-board for Spike as soon as we get a solicitation or cover or any sort of big news.
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