Season 8 - Twilight Part 3: Issue 34

[Hallow Thorn]

I am hoping for some Satsu / Spike ‘screen time’ and hostility towards each other. (I just started liking them both and I want to see a brawl between the two ) Also I am wondering about all the relationship development between Spike and Angel that was concluded in after the fall and how all that could/would be wide away in season 8. Which I am for, I never liked them as friends and thought they made great rivals.

[The Night Lord]

'Welcome to Twilight' says Loopy-Angel. Next issue, we'll see Edward Cullen and Bella Swann running around the place with Buffy and Loopy-Angel

Also I am wondering about all the relationship development between Spike and Angel that was concluded in after the fall and how all that could/would be wide away in season 8. Which I am for, I never liked them as friends and thought they made great rivals

Well, Spike would smell Angel all over Buffy and probably attempt to kill Angel, but would fail, although he will admit to Buffy that he knew she would never pick him (Spike). Perhaps. I don't know for sure, but it sounds kinda logical

[zamolxis]

Apr 22, 2010 1:39:48 GMT -5 The Night Lord said:

Well, Spike would smell Angel all over Buffy and probably attempt to kill Angel, but would fail, although he will admit to Buffy that he knew she would never pick him (Spike). Perhaps. I don't know for sure, but it sounds kinda logical

In Whedon's world gods don't smell: see Illyria for reference

[The Night Lord]

Apr 22, 2010 2:28:56 GMT -5 zamolxis said:

Apr 22, 2010 1:39:48 GMT -5 The Night Lord said:

Well, Spike would smell Angel all over Buffy and probably attempt to kill Angel, but would fail, although he will admit to Buffy that he knew she would never pick him (Spike). Perhaps. I don't know for sure, but it sounds kinda logical

In Whedon's world gods don't smell: see Illyria for reference

Oh yeah, forgot about that. And maybe by now, Illyria has a scent, unless I've been reading too many fanfics

[The Girl In Question]

This is OT but was Illyria actually a god? Because I recall Angel saying something like, "She's not a god. She just has the ego of one."

[jellymoff]

Apr 22, 2010 14:25:41 GMT -5 The Girl In Question said:

This is OT but was Illyria actually a god? Because I recall Angel saying something like, "She's not a god. She just has the ego of one."

She was often referred to as an "Old One", as opposed to Glory, who as specifically identified as a god. Now what that means in the Buffyverse? I don't know if there is much of a difference.

[The Night Lord]

I guess a god is a step up or two from Old One. And Illyria liked to think of herself as a god

[lucyflawless]

The way I remember it, Glory was a hell god, meaning she ruled one of the hell dimensions together with a few (two iirc) other demons, until they managed to banish her into "our" dimension, into the body of a human baby boy - Ben.

Illyria was one of the pure demons that was put to rest before all the pure demons were banished from this realm (at the time the first vampire was created) and then she layed in wait for her followers to resurrect her. Since she was brought back into Fred's body she's probably not considered a pure demon anymore. Anyway, from what I remember she was never the ruler of earth more than any of the other pure demons, hence not really a god the way they used the word about Glory.

[jellymoff]

Apr 23, 2010 10:34:55 GMT -5 lucyflawless said:

The way I remember it, Glory was a hell god, meaning she ruled one of the hell dimensions together with a few (two iirc) other demons, until they managed to banish her into "our" dimension, into the body of a human baby boy - Ben.

Wait, wait... Ben is Glory?


(Sorry. Soooo sorry. I just couldn't resist)

[D'Hoffryn]

ok, I have read the issue so many times now and read your theorys and how you see it, so just too check that i am not left behind this is what i understand.

The universe has wanted to change for some time now but the scales are balanced (good vs evil)so it has no need to,

Buffy died in season 1 but xander brought her back and now 2 slayers, scales tip a tiny bit in favor of good and buffy is identified as the possible one,

Buffy gets willow to create the army of slayers (S7) and scales tip a hell of a lot, universe is unbalanced (she is definatley the one)

In tibet she calls for the power back and gets all the dead slayers and slayers who supressed thier powers, (she is now ready)

The universe gave angel (the chosen opposing force) the power to compensate buffy's power.

the sex causes a shock wave or ripple to send the scales into temporay flux and for every slayer left active in the world, a world of demons in added to balnce the scales and create a new world, (a new balance( plus buffy and angel get the reward off looking down just like gods.

If i have this right angel knew it was comming so he got the vamps in watg to depower them, get as few as possible killed, drove them to Oz to give up their power all so when the re-balance happened less demons would be added to the world.

So season nine will be all about sucking all magic and demons out of this reality (battle of starbucks)

[Shane]

Gotta say, not really liking the new developments. Given how Buffy/Angel-centric this arc has been, I'm half expecting a revelation that Buffy was the one destined for mass destruction and Angel just took her place to free her from the guilt of "necessary sacrifice" or something. Also anticipate the next arc is going to (further) contradict my characterisation of Buffy.

Anyway, the artwork was quite brilliant. Jeanty is pretty good with facial expressions which works well for Buffy since the characters don't wear masks. Hope to see lots more of those, regardless of plot...

[Darth Rosie]

Apr 15, 2010 23:11:12 GMT -5 wenxina said:

After a week of leisurely toiling at this, my review is finally finished. Click HERE to read, if interested.

Fantastic review, full of helpful insights. Karma!

I'm disturbed by a panel where Warren is standing right behind Willow. How come they can be shown that close what with all the history they "share"? Strange, upsetting.

[shaz]

There's an interview with Brad Meltzer on io9, interesting stuff, also includes information on how to ask him questions for a Twitter interview this week!

[AndrewCrossett]

May 3, 2010 15:02:54 GMT -5 shaz said:

There's an interview with Brad Meltzer on io9, interesting stuff, also includes information on how to ask him questions for a Twitter interview this week!

Interesting...

In Issue 34, there's a lot of talk about how the universe is compelling Buffy and Angel together. When Angel is in his Twlight persona, he's not the heroic Angel we all know, he's a Grade-A evil bastard. To what extent would you say that Buffy is being compelled by forces beyond her ken as well?

What this book is about is a union, and I think it would be completely unfair to say that one party got pulled and the other didn't. It would seem ridiculous to me to say that they are not equals here.

When would you say this inexorable pull began?

To go back and examine when these characters began acting this way - that would be to rewrite history, and it will become very clear soon what is drawing them together.

[wenxina]

May 1, 2010 6:00:52 GMT -5 Darth Rosie said:

Apr 15, 2010 23:11:12 GMT -5 wenxina said:

After a week of leisurely toiling at this, my review is finally finished. Click HERE to read, if interested.

Fantastic review, full of helpful insights. Karma!

I'm disturbed by a panel where Warren is standing right behind Willow. How come they can be shown that close what with all the history they "share"? Strange, upsetting.

Thanks... sorry I didn't see this before. It kinda got buried. But I'm glad you enjoyed reading it. Feel free to leave comments on the blog... it's always nice to see validation of readership.

Anyway, the interview that shaz mentioned is HERE. Thanks for the find!
*karma*

[shaz]

You're welcome! Karma for the link! : )

[beeemkcl]

First off, why am I posting on this Issue now instead of last month? Because after first skimming it, I knew that I needed to have #35 as well to post on this. There was so much going on that I didn’t want to speculate on #35 or what was going on or what I had a problem with in this comic. And why today instead of Thursday when I got the Issue? The weekend and the Supreme Court nomination.

Brad Meltzer says in that CBR interview that it was Joss’s idea to actually show sex scenes. And they said that they even did more graphic scenes. That they traded videos about “what was sexy to them” or whatever.


Overall, this Issue is pretty confusing and doesn’t make much sense. Giles and the Council always feared that perhaps a Slayer and Vampire would become such superbeings yet this is the first time we hear about this? Giles has zero concern about Angel’s relationship with Buffy besides perhaps Angel season 5 when Giles doesn’t help out Angel. Wesley had a file on Angel simply because of his closeness to Buffy, so that possibly could be part of this. Yet Wesley never moved to break up Buffy and Angel. Giles didn’t like the idea of Buffy and Spike and tried to get Buffy in Season 7 to break things off with him. But the Council itself showed zero concern about Spike helping out Buffy when they come in Season 5 to see whether they should give their information on Glory to Buffy.


Now, the review:

Pretty much when Buffy and Angel are starting to about to have sex, Faith is suddenly perfectly fine. She has no injuries and seems to have her powers back. Why is this? Are Buffy and Angel supposed to be fought? Does the PTB actually want superpowered Buffy and Angel?


So Buffy got more power because she shared power and was the Best Slayer Ever? The omniverse wanted a Slayer and a Vampire to have such power yet when Buffy and Angel are having sex is slowly destroying the world? The Slayer and Vampire are supposed to use these powers to survive the Twilight? Yet in #35 what is there to survive?


The Buffy and Spike flash forward: This is interesting. Buffy is dressed like her late Season 7 self. And her hair is like her late Season 7 self. Spike’s is in an olive green shirt, which is something he’s never worn before. And, hey, they are fighting together against something. I repeat: They are fighting together against something. Angel is not fighting with Buffy, Spike is. Given #35, at some point, Angel is no longer with/near Buffy and Spike is fighting with her.


Willow says that Buffy should be staking Angel? Huh? In Buffy’s lust and bliss state of mind should be staking Angel? With what? Unless Willow is thinking this rather late and is saying that Buffy should have been staking Angel instead of wanting to have sex with him.


In Willow’s comment about Buffy’s “truest loves”, Angel is more in the foreground than Spike. Willow’s comment alone doesn’t mean that Buffy still considers Spike one of her “truest loves”, but it is significant that Willow even mentions Spike given that she would either think Spike has been dust for years or is no longer dust yet hasn’t even contacted Buffy yet. Maybe Spike’s contacted Willow and told her not to say anything to Buffy? Who knows.


Giles says: “They are the best of their kind.” Huh? HOW is that true for Angel? There were PLENTY of vampires more powerful and capable than Angel. Giles we are led to believe knew about such ‘prophecy’ before the series even started. Yet, we NEVER see him concerned about Buffy/Angel. For Angel, the closest we see is Giles refusal to cooperate with Angel in Angel season 5. So, Angel’s the best of his kind only becomes of the power that Wolfram and Hart gave him?

For Spike, now it makes sense why Giles was so against the idea of Buffy/Spike. If he thought that Buffy and Spike together could become such people, then this makes sense. But even if this is true, why would Giles so risk Buffy having a relationship with Angel? Did Giles think Angel so incapable and pathetic that there was zero possibility that Angel could be Buffy’s vampire counterpart in this ‘prophecy’ thing?

Giles says that when Buffy and Angel “truly become”, humans possibly will be wiped out and the omniverse won’t care? Giles earlier says that Buffy gave the world “a new breed. A new evolution.” Meaning the Slayers. But then Angel was having 206 of these killed. And these Slayers aren’t as important as Buffy herself. They are a means to an end?


Giles was really searching Germany and England for a way to kill a god? So, Giles was so distant from Buffy and not talking to her and possibly training the Slayers and Gwen to kill Buffy instead of actually talking to her about this prophecy? How does that make any sense? And, really, if Giles knew that there was supposed to be a vampire counterpart to Buffy, did he assume that Twilight could have been a vampire? Why then was he seemingly shocked/surprised that Angel was Twilight. Did Giles assume Twilight was Spike? Did Angel by dressing like Spike, using Warren, using Harmony, etc. try to make people like Giles believe that he was Spike? It’s confusing and convoluted.


The dimensional rift is the last thing to happen. So, after Buffy and Angel are gone, the demons are to take over the Earth again? HOW is that BALANCE? Giles before says the Slayer was meant to simply “balance” the vampire population. Yet he doesn’t talk about all the other demons and witches and warlocks and other bad things. And all these demons come in the rift after Buffy and Angel are gone. How is any of this balance unless Buffy and Angel are going to come back? How is Angel having superpowers balance? If Angel is good, is Angel just as responsible for the increase in the demon population?


When they are in Twilight: There’s a big head on the ground with a tree on it. Maybe that’s significant. Buffy is dressed as someone in like an Egyptian court or Roman while Angel is dressed like a poor person. I’d say this is perhaps an indicator of Buffy being “The Queen”. And this suggests that Angel is not “The Prince” given how he’s dressed.


Before talking about the sex, it’s interesting that Buffy is shown having bite makes in her neck. Now in the Issue about that Slayer pretending to be Buffy, they said Buffy had bite marks. Buffy’s marks are relatively faint, but they are there. They weren’t there after “The Gift” (5.22). Unless we are supposed to brush off 44 episodes of no marks because SMG simply didn’t want to have the makeup, why are they back there? To show Angel’s “ownership” of Buffy? Having the marks also puts another subtext with the relationship Spike has with her in Season 6 and 7. Spike would of course much prefer her not having a constant reminder of what she did for Angel and Angel having been with her.


Sex: (I try to be as least graphic as possible while still saying what is happening.)

Words about “Reunion kisses are the best”: “Awkward energy”, “Semi-comic fumbling”, “all the confusion”, “the uncertainly”: Huh? This possibly implies that at least Buffy is under some sort of spell or influence and then “once you find your footing” they are finally going at it.

Willow obviously believes that Xander is still into Buffy and therefore doesn’t want him seeing Buffy and Angel together. Yet Willow herself doesn’t seem that shocked and appalled by the whole thing. Willow is more concerned about what is happening in the world and what Giles knows.

Is Angel wearing pink boxer briefs?
Buffy is wearing relatively plain pink underwear. If this was drawn purposefully, it implies that Buffy at this time is far from thinking about sex or even thinking about her looking sexy.

Something interesting and possibly telling about the sex scenes is that they seem to be for Buffy’s pleasure, not necessarily Angel’s. The beginning scene possibly shows her stroking him, or simply taking him out. But he gives her oral; she doesn’t give him that. And she tells him what to do. She’s the aggressor. Pretty much her bringing him out and kissing his chest are the only things she ‘does’ for him. She’s the one that suggests having them fly. It’s also interesting and possibly telling that she wants to go directly into sex. She doesn’t remember Angel doing oral to her? Doesn’t think he’d be good at it? She wants intercourse NOW?

Angel does zero breast kissing and going directly for the oral. Significant? Okay, so he does it after they’re out of the Earth’s atmosphere.

It’s interesting and possibly telling that the sex seems to be for Buffy’s pleasure and not really Angel’s. About all of the ‘pleasure’ shots are of Buffy, Buffy has her climax shot and little afterglow while Angel doesn’t have one. Really? Angel’s been the one that been going without sex for the longest. Besides Nina, he hasn’t been with anyone since Buffy in “I Will Remember You” (A 1.08). Before that, after Darla in 1900 or before, and after Darla he may have been with the Furies and possibly not much more. Sure, Buffy’s had a drought. But she was with Satsu and was with Spike before that, Riley before that, Parker before that, Angel before that. Yet, it’s pretty much solely about Buffy’s pleasure.

Really, given their superpowers, that sex was really unimpressive. And Buffy relatively is not that enthused and satisfied about it. And her ‘afterglow’ seems to last like a second. Angel for his part doesn’t seem to care much that they just had sex. He’s all about their being in Twilight. So, really, Angel has just been using Buffy to get them to this place? Which is pretty deplorable.

At this point, Angel seemingly is initially confused – unless he simply wants Buffy to believe that. He talks as if he doesn’t know what just happened or how they got to where they now are. Angel says he didn’t know it would take the two of them, whatever he means by that.

But Angel seems happy that they are in Twilight and says that the place is now theirs. It’s not certain at this point whether Angel knows the Earth is slowly being destroyed by natural disasters and global warming and demons coming in from a dimensional rift.


Now, mostly I didn’t post last month because of the not-making-sense mythlogoly and the fact that Buffy and Angel had sex and what that means for both of them. Both these things are better answered for #35. The Spike thing of course is also better answered in #35 other than to say that Spike has been around for years now and never made an effort to get back with Buffy so he has zero to complain about or be bitter or whiny or whatever about Buffy deciding to try to get with Xander and Buffy having sex with a man. Or about the Satsu thing.

[wenxina]

I'm just going to respond randomly to stuff that struck me the most about your review.
Faith got her power back because once the world started going to hell, there was no balance left. That's what Giles said. Currently, we're in a state of free for all. That's why we have demons pouring in from multiple dimensional rifts. All the other Slayers that were depowered also have their powers back.

The Watchers' Council has an urban legend about a Slayer who would one day ascend the metaphysical ladder. From what is said, there's no evidence that the vampire counterpart was ever considered. Willow said as much, that Angel was the missing piece of the puzzle. How Buffy wasn't simply the first Slayer to share her power, but was also the first Slayer to have loved a vampire. Or vampires. How she was always meant to make that connection. As for why we've never heard of the legend before, it's because it was believed to be a boogieman story. As Giles says in #35, it was an unprovable hypothesis based on theories on the beginning of the world. Giles obviously never paid the stories much heed. Again, even if he thought about it, the vampire aspect was missing from his limited understanding then.

As for bite marks, I doubt they really cared to emphasize the bite marks unless a scene called for it. Less to do with SMG's refusal to endure make-up than it has to do with practicality. What's the point of wasting time and money on something that is inconsequential?

[beeemkcl]

Doing a quick reply. Will probably go through the thread tomorrow.

I'll have to go back and look at the Issue to see if Giles never considered the vampire counterpart thing.

For the bites: That's simply not true. They keep those bites there throughout Season 4 and 5 unless in the shot it was unlikely you'd see that part of SMG's neck. So, unless their excuse is that SMG simply didn't want to have the makeup done, there's no other rational excuse for why they were gone and suddenly they're back in a Buffy/Angel sex scene other than to simply to a retcon to show them in that scene. They only other explanation is that Angel bit Buffy again.

[BlueJay]

I just assumed that Buffy always had that scar. Remember that in "The Chain" one of the slayers tells Buffy Decoy #2 that Buffy has a bite mark on her neck too.