Spike: Ongoing Series (Early Discussion)

[neowhobaz]

I'd really like it if Brian found some way to give spike his own uniqeness in the verse. Angel has shanshu. Buffy's the original slayer of this generation. Whats spike got? Sidekick award of a lifetime lol

[Paul]

Aug 28, 2009 19:20:12 GMT -5 neowhobaz said:

I'd really like it if Brian found some way to give spike his own uniqeness in the verse. Angel has shanshu. Buffy's the original slayer of this generation. Whats spike got? Sidekick award of a lifetime lol

Spike is already unique, that was established in AtF. He's not in the history books, he doesn't have a destiny or set role to play. That makes him very different to Buffy and Angel, who are both chosen by fate or have definite destinies. In AtF #17, Angel encourages him to use this freedom to his advantage, by making his own destiny. I assume this series is the continuation of that journey.

Spike's also always been pretty unique as a vampire, in that he values human emotions like love and sought redemption even without a soul.

[Kratos]

Aug 29, 2009 0:12:19 GMT -5 Paul said:

Spike is already unique, that was established in AtF. He's not in the history books, he doesn't have a destiny or set role to play. That makes him very different to Buffy and Angel, who are both chosen by fate or have definite destinies. In AtF #17, Angel encourages him to use this freedom to his advantage, by making his own destiny. I assume this series is the continuation of that journey.

I don' t think that it really works like that. Angel is the only one that has been written to have this "grand" destiny that a fan may or may not find intresting.
Buffy was always following her own path, she was chosen to be the slayer true, but that doesn't mean that her whole life was fated.
Spike goes even a little further in that he chose his soul and thus is a white hat now. But it wasn't just established in ATF17, yes Brian pointed it out but difference being that this was already there in the canon tvshow Spike.
He worked for years beside the slayer, he was her strongest supporter and rock in the last season yet nobody caught on. Spike has always chosen his own destiny nor did he seem to care about that stuff on the show.
I guess it also partly makes him more dangerous. With Angel, everybody is watching his every move, were he to turn evil he'll be turned to dust before he said anything. Spike however, sky's the limit and he has a history of people underestimating him.

[Paul]

Aug 29, 2009 0:40:24 GMT -5 Kratos said:

Aug 29, 2009 0:12:19 GMT -5 Paul said:

Spike is already unique, that was established in AtF. He's not in the history books, he doesn't have a destiny or set role to play. That makes him very different to Buffy and Angel, who are both chosen by fate or have definite destinies. In AtF #17, Angel encourages him to use this freedom to his advantage, by making his own destiny. I assume this series is the continuation of that journey.

I don' t think that it really works like that. Angel is the only one that has been written to have this "grand" destiny that a fan may or may not find intresting.
Buffy was always following her own path, she was chosen to be the slayer true, but that doesn't mean that her whole life was fated.
Spike goes even a little further in that he chose his soul and thus is a white hat now. But it wasn't just established in ATF17, yes Brian pointed it out but difference being that this was already there in the canon tvshow Spike.
He worked for years beside the slayer, he was her strongest supporter and rock in the last season yet nobody caught on. Spike has always chosen his own destiny nor did he seem to care about that stuff on the show.
I guess it also partly makes him more dangerous. With Angel, everybody is watching his every move, were he to turn evil he'll be turned to dust before he said anything. Spike however, sky's the limit and he has a history of people underestimating him.

Buffy might have stuck it to destiny a few times herself, but she was still chosen by fate and has a distinct role as the Slayer. Spike wasn't chosen by anyone except himself. He's not the Slayer or the Shanshu or an agent of the PTB, he's just Spike.

You're right that Spike always chose his own destiny, but the fact that he was totally absent from the history books was not established until Spike: AtF. It's a very nice plot device because it leaves his future totally open-ended. Also, until now, Spike has always been defined by those around him: Drusilla, Angelus, Buffy and Angel. Now he's grown up and on his own, and it's time for him to find his own role instead of being the sidekick.

[Kratos]

Aug 29, 2009 6:51:15 GMT -5 Paul said:

Buffy might have stuck it to destiny a few times herself, but she was still chosen by fate and has a distinct role as the Slayer. Spike wasn't chosen by anyone except himself. He's not the Slayer or the Shanshu or an agent of the PTB, he's just Spike.

Be that as it may Buffy's life was not pre ordained like Angel's. That whole Darla,Connor,Yasmine thing was all set in stone.
Buffy was chosen by the monks to safeguard Dawn, she died at the hands to the Master, her mother passing away was natural.
Her biggest fight on the show(The first) was not prophesized.
And you make it out to be that the Ptb are the ultimate goodguys, they are not. They are just a power with their own intrest, theirs being balance.
In Fray's book we see higher powers discuss earth's need again to have a slayer, they are very cold and dark about it. Had she not become the slayer they would have had her killed so the next could be called.
And that's not really true, Spike was deemed a champion,hero by Buffy, she chose him.

You're right that Spike always chose his own destiny, but the fact that he was totally absent from the history books was not established until Spike: AtF. It's a very nice plot device because it leaves his future totally open-ended. Also, until now, Spike has always been defined by those around him: Drusilla, Angelus, Buffy and Angel. Now he's grown up and on his own, and it's time for him to find his own role instead of being the sidekick.

And why would it matter to be in the history books, i sincerly doubt that Angel or the side of evil has all the information. Not everything is prophesized and written down.
I think only Drusilla and now Buffy have truelly defined,influenced Spike into becoming who he is. Spike was the second worst vampire in history, only difference, Spike made his mark in the modern age, Angelus in the past. And you don't get to be the 2worst vampire by copycating the first. Penn was a duplicate of Angelus yet he wasn't as infamous as Spike. Spike made his own brand of evil and stamped his mark in history. He was a legendary dark warrior, Angelus never had that status.
And i also don't consider him defined by Angel, Spike was already a champion in season5 coming off Buffy. I saw him try to help Angel, but i hardly consider him his sidekick, he made his displeasure known more then enough if he didn't agree with Angel.
I do agree that Spike needs to follow his own way, i'm done with buying Angel books that feature Spike in it, seems like a cheap way to get money from that group of fans. And got burned enough with After the fall. I'll only buy the Spike comics now cus you know, i'm only intrested in Spike's story, not Angels.

[Paul]

Aug 29, 2009 10:32:58 GMT -5 Kratos said:

Aug 29, 2009 6:51:15 GMT -5 Paul said:

Buffy might have stuck it to destiny a few times herself, but she was still chosen by fate and has a distinct role as the Slayer. Spike wasn't chosen by anyone except himself. He's not the Slayer or the Shanshu or an agent of the PTB, he's just Spike.

Be that as it may Buffy's life was not pre ordained like Angel's. That whole Darla,Connor,Yasmine thing was all set in stone.
Buffy was chosen by the monks to safeguard Dawn, she died at the hands to the Master, her mother passing away was natural.
Her biggest fight on the show(The first) was not prophesized.
And you make it out to be that the Ptb are the ultimate goodguys, they are not. They are just a power with their own intrest, theirs being balance.
In Fray's book we see higher powers discuss earth's need again to have a slayer, they are very cold and dark about it. Had she not become the slayer they would have had her killed so the next could be called.
And that's not really true, Spike was deemed a champion,hero by Buffy, she chose him.

You're right that Spike always chose his own destiny, but the fact that he was totally absent from the history books was not established until Spike: AtF. It's a very nice plot device because it leaves his future totally open-ended. Also, until now, Spike has always been defined by those around him: Drusilla, Angelus, Buffy and Angel. Now he's grown up and on his own, and it's time for him to find his own role instead of being the sidekick.

And why would it matter to be in the history books, i sincerly doubt that Angel or the side of evil has all the information. Not everything is prophesized and written down.
I think only Drusilla and now Buffy have truelly defined,influenced Spike into becoming who he is. Spike was the second worst vampire in history, only difference, Spike made his mark in the modern age, Angelus in the past. And you don't get to be the 2worst vampire by copycating the first. Penn was a duplicate of Angelus yet he wasn't as infamous as Spike. Spike made his own brand of evil and stamped his mark in history. He was a legendary dark warrior, Angelus never had that status.
And i also don't consider him defined by Angel, Spike was already a champion in season5 coming off Buffy. I saw him try to help Angel, but i hardly consider him his sidekick, he made his displeasure known more then enough if he didn't agree with Angel.
I do agree that Spike needs to follow his own way, i'm done with buying Angel books that feature Spike in it, seems like a cheap way to get money from that group of fans. And got burned enough with After the fall. I'll only buy the Spike comics now cus you know, i'm only intrested in Spike's story, not Angels.

Aspects of Buffy's life are pre-ordained. She was destined to die in "Prophecy Girl", she's destined to play a part in the Fraypocalypse. She's a significant figure in history.

When did I say the PTB were the ultimate good guys? Stop putting words in my mouth. I just meant that they're a higher power, they control major events. Buffy may have chosen Spike but she's not a higher power; the higher powers like the PTB and the Senior Partners have no interest in Spike.

Have you even read After the Fall? Non tells Spike that he has no destiny, he's not recorded in future history. Angel later tells him this is an advantage, because he's an unpredicable x-factor: "Whatever you do, whatever path you take, good, bad -- noone's gonna see you coming." This is a major part of Spike's arc in AtF, and it obviously leads into the new Spike series where Spike will be choosing his path. I'm just saying this because neowhobaz was saying they should give Spike some status like the Shanshu prophecy, but that is Spike's status, the fact that he doesn't have a Shanshu destiny. I don't know what you disagree with, you just seem to be arguing with me for the sake of it.

Of course Angel(us) influenced Spike. Most of Spike's evil career was spent trying to prove that he was badder than Angelus so that Drusilla would love him. Spike was fairly mellow for a vampire before Angelus started pumping Drusilla to wind him up. Spike wasn't just copying his big brother, he was trying to out-do him. And Angel influenced Spike into becoming a Champion because it was right, not for a girl. When he first showed up on Angel, Spike had no interest in being a Champion if Buffy wasn't around to see it. But by the end, he's a loyal member of Angel's team. And as mentioned above, it's Angel who brings Spike out of his funk in AtF and inspires him to find his own path.

[Kratos]

Aug 29, 2009 11:07:31 GMT -5 Paul said:

Aspects of Buffy's life are pre-ordained. She was destined to die in "Prophecy Girl", she's destined to play a part in the Fraypocalypse. She's a significant figure in history.

Not anymore, by time-traveling things change, this includes Buffy's last battle where magic supposadly will dissapear. Fray or Buffy couldn't find any of it in the history books.
Parts of her life were pro-ordained but that's just it parts. Angel in comparison had a lot more stuff pre-ordained. Like having a son, or how it could all end for him, for good or evil.

When did I say the PTB were the ultimate good guys? Stop putting words in my mouth. I just meant that they're a higher power, they control major events. Buffy may have chosen Spike but she's not a higher power; the higher powers like the PTB and the Senior Partners have no interest in Spike..

Because you make them out to be some all powerful beings, it doens't make any difference wether one is chosen or not. Does this make Willow,Xander,Wesley,Giles,Fred,ect anyless important then Angel? I could choose an ant to do my bidding that doesn't mean that that ant is any better then any other ant. Regardless of it being chosen by some "higher" power.
And Buffy was not chosen in the same manner that Angel was, Angel had a personal relationship with these so called powers, Buffy did not. She was a potential, got powers, fought evil. The Ptb didn't really help or guide her. In fact one could even argue that they made things worse by making Angel be her sidekick in first seasons which led to Angelus returning.
And yes, PTB and SP are not intrested in Spike, there are however boatloads more higher powers that we never heard of.

Have you even read After the Fall? Non tells Spike that he has no destiny, he's not recorded in future history. Angel later tells him this is an advantage, because he's an unpredicable x-factor: "Whatever you do, whatever path you take, good, bad -- noone's gonna see you coming." This is a major part of Spike's arc in AtF, and it obviously leads into the new Spike series where Spike will be choosing his path. I'm just saying this because neowhobaz was saying they should give Spike some status like the Shanshu prophecy, but that is Spike's status, the fact that he doesn't have a Shanshu destiny. I don't know what you disagree with, you just seem to be arguing with me for the sake of it.

Yes.
First Non is a nobody, who cares what she says.
Second, i highly doubt that everything that is going to happen is written down in future history books. That would go directly against man's free will.
Sorry you feel that way.

Of course Angel(us) influenced Spike. Most of Spike's evil career was spent trying to prove that he was badder than Angelus so that Drusilla would love him. Spike was fairly mellow for a vampire before Angelus started pumping Drusilla to wind him up. Spike wasn't just copying his big brother, he was trying to out-do him. And Angel influenced Spike into becoming a Champion because it was right, not for a girl. When he first showed up on Angel, Spike had no interest in being a Champion if Buffy wasn't around to see it. But by the end, he's a loyal member of Angel's team. And as mentioned above, it's Angel who brings Spike out of his funk in AtF and inspires him to find his own path.

First 20years sure, but even if Angelus had remained with the scourge, Spike would have eventually made Angelus see him as an equal. But after he left, Spike didn't continue Angelus's way of evil, he made his own. And that was pure Spike, his actions, his consequences.
Disagree about Angel, Spike was already a champion, a rough and inexperienced one sure, but he still was one. Disagree it being simply about a girl, otherwise he could have left with Buffy in the cave when she told him to, he would have gotten the cred + the girl. Instead he stayed and finished the job, same with Fred, he doesn't choose the easy path, he chose a hero's path, saving her and lose his one and only chance at becoming corporeal.
Spike was always loyal to those that treat him well, Angelus didn't and he backstabbed him. Angel did so he got Spike's support.

Aug 28, 2009 19:20:12 GMT -5 neowhobaz said:

I'd really like it if Brian found some way to give spike his own uniqeness in the verse. Angel has shanshu. Buffy's the original slayer of this generation. Whats spike got? Sidekick award of a lifetime lol.

Spike's uniqueness is that he's the true vampire with a soul. Both his demon and human side chose it. Angelus would have never willingly chosen it.

[Brian Lynch]

Well, unless I'm remember my writing incorrectly, Non never said Spike doesn't rank in the History books. You guys should re-read those issues. Spike was not included in a very specific set of events, but not all of history.

[Paul]

*sigh* Kratos, I'm tired of this inane conversation. I feel like you're picking apart everything I say for the sake of it, rather than because you have a clear point to make. I'm not bashing Spike, or saying that Angel is a better character, I'm just pointing out a story point that was made in AtF.

Aug 29, 2009 13:51:27 GMT -5 Brian Lynch said:

Well, unless I'm remember my writing incorrectly, Non never said Spike doesn't rank in the History books. You guys should re-read those issues. Spike was not included in a very specific set of events, but not all of history.

I knew Spike is mentioned in all of history; since the Scoobies research him in "School Hard", he must already be recorded. But in future events, like the "fall of man" that Angel will bring about, Spike doesn't appeared to be mentioned. Here are the two original quotes I could find referring to this:

"It's all been crystal balled. Illyria pops in future events. Hell, she is a future event unto herself. You know how many times you (Non) make a cameo? Same amount of time Spike does. Not once." - Gunn

"I don't mean to spread gossip but I have it on good authority that you and I are not in the final chapters of the history books-" - Non

Now, those could just've been referring to the Fall of L.A., but considering it's still being discussed in AtF #17 in relation to Angel's Shanshu destiny made me think it was still relevant, and would lead into the direction of the Spike book.

[Kratos]

Aug 29, 2009 13:51:27 GMT -5 Brian Lynch said:

Well, unless I'm remember my writing incorrectly, Non never said Spike doesn't rank in the History books. You guys should re-read those issues. Spike was not included in a very specific set of events, but not all of history.

So the events of After the fall were what was talked about Spike not appearing in?

Aug 29, 2009 14:38:59 GMT -5 Paul said:

*sigh* Kratos, I'm tired of this inane conversation. I feel like you're picking apart everything I say for the sake of it, rather than because you have a clear point to make. I'm not bashing Spike, or saying that Angel is a better character, I'm just pointing out a story point that was made in AtF.

Again, sorry you feel that way. I really don't understand what you are trying to explain. Perhaps because we have very different views on the verse.
On the topic of Spike, well i guess as a non-Angel fan i want the Spike book to speak for itself, not having to buy/read past Angel books to totally understand this series. Not that you are saying that, just that you stressed that this Spike's arc/point was already made in after the fall which i disagree with. It was the first time it was voiced out loud but it wasn't really anything new. I think the only person that truelly knows the grand design for Spike is Joss, no offense Brian.

Aug 29, 2009 14:38:59 GMT -5 Paul said:

"It's all been crystal balled. Illyria pops in future events. Hell, she is a future event unto herself. You know how many times you (Non) make a cameo? Same amount of time Spike does. Not once." - Gunn

"I don't mean to spread gossip but I have it on good authority that you and I are not in the final chapters of the history books-" - Non

Well considering the sources i don't take any of this as fact. Non only believes it because Gunn told her. And Gunn was a psychotic vampire that believed he could save the world. He was wrong about a great many things.

[henzINNIT]

I don't really understand this argument to be honest.

Paul, I agree that Spike's "thing" should be his absence from prophecy. It's an interesting take for this universe as Buffy and Angel both dealt heavily with destiny, and it's been a theme before that Spike makes his own.

[BenTaylor3907]

Aug 29, 2009 0:12:19 GMT -5 Paul said:

Aug 28, 2009 19:20:12 GMT -5 neowhobaz said:

I'd really like it if Brian found some way to give spike his own uniqeness in the verse. Angel has shanshu. Buffy's the original slayer of this generation. Whats spike got? Sidekick award of a lifetime lol

Spike is already unique, that was established in AtF. He's not in the history books, he doesn't have a destiny or set role to play. That makes him very different to Buffy and Angel, who are both chosen by fate or have definite destinies. In AtF #17, Angel encourages him to use this freedom to his advantage, by making his own destiny. I assume this series is the continuation of that journey.

Spike's also always been pretty unique as a vampire, in that he values human emotions like love and sought redemption even without a soul.

Someone get this dude a klondike bar!

[neowhobaz]

Paul can have the klondike bar cuz I dont like them lol.

If I'd known I was going to cause such an uproar I'd have ran the other way lol.

Paul: When I said Spike needs his own uniqueness and I cited Angel and Buffy's things I didn't mean for those specific things to be what Spike should get, I just meant something that would make Spike standout but after reading the back and forth I think your right in the sense that Spike's Xfactorness is what makes him his own person seperate from Buffy or Angel and I think Brian will play that out really well like he's done all along. This pretty much means we can see and expect anything and everything for Spike.

Kratos: Don't worry. I think the Spike series will only require that you know Spike and the highlights of his past. Even if there are other points referenced from Other Angel titles like maybe the upcoming "Boys and their toys" two parter or the ANnual, Idoubt that a person would need to know the reference in order to enjoy the story.

[Randi Giles]

Now back to our regular schedule program. I just find out that SPIKE was going to be on-going, so has there been any recent word about when it's coming out.

[Brian Lynch]

I would say first quarter 2010. It will be worth the wait!
Spike is co-starring in ANGEL 26 and 27. And a version of him is in the ANGEL ANNUAL.

[Randi Giles]

Sept 16, 2009 17:28:28 GMT -5 Brian Lynch said:

I would say first quarter 2010. It will be worth the wait!
Spike is co-starring in ANGEL 26 and 27. And a version of him is in the ANGEL ANNUAL.

Thanks for replying. I can't wait. You're an awesome writer.

[Brian Lynch]

Thank you!

[Brian Lynch]

Scoop!

SPIKE's first story will be entitled "Alone". 2 issues, possibly 3.
SPIKE'S second story will be entitled "Together Now". 3 issues, possibly 4.

Put them together and they will form arc # 1 of Spike's tale: "Alone Together Now".

[patxshand]

Nice. I'm super excited for this.

[Hellbound Hyperion]

Dec 27, 2009 23:46:41 GMT -5 patxshand said:

Nice. I'm super excited for this.

+1. Can we pre-order from our LCS yet?