balesthebloody
Wise-cracking Techno Genius
"Angel's gettin' some! Good on you mate!"[Mo0:0]
Posts: 733
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Post by balesthebloody on Mar 6, 2008 9:50:20 GMT -5
You talk like the world is just black and white. Good and evil. The world is full of gray. Even each of the Scoobies have done things that could be considered "evil" but that doesn't make them evil. I think Twilight is the same way. You guys have to admit that what he is trying to accomplish is a good thing. If you take out all the magic in the world then well it might just be safer. You say he is evil because he is fighting Buffy. Well in Sunnydale good people would fight her too. I think that until we see more of him we shouldn't judge him just yet.
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Post by aluminumcandy on Mar 6, 2008 10:23:48 GMT -5
You talk like the world is just black and white. Good and evil. The world is full of gray. Even each of the Scoobies have done things that could be considered "evil" but that doesn't make them evil. I think Twilight is the same way. You guys have to admit that what he is trying to accomplish is a good thing. If you take out all the magic in the world then well it might just be safer. You say he is evil because he is fighting Buffy. Well in Sunnydale good people would fight her too. I think that until we see more of him we shouldn't judge him just yet. I agree with you completely on this. I won't say he's evil yet either. Look at Andrew! He was against Buffy for a season, but come on, evil? Johnathan too. I think now that the issue of time travel has been made obvious through #16's cover, I still think he's from the future and he's trying too keep something big from happening.
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Post by henzINNIT on Mar 6, 2008 11:12:59 GMT -5
Is it selfless if you sacrifice someone else? When that person is your sister, yes. It would be selfish to keep Dawn alive and let the rest of the world die. That doesn't make sense to me. How is it selfless to sacrifice your sister? If it was, then we'd all be talking about Buffy the Vampire Slayer's season 5 finale where Buffy selflessly chucks her sister off the tower to save the world haha. I still question Buffy's leadership. Her friends didn't boot her in season 7 for nothing (however they're clearly retarded to think Faith could do a better job). I think Buffy will pay for her lack of foresight, maybe it'll start with a trip to the future. Hopefully she eventually turns to Giles for advice. I think she still needs some, and it's obvious he still needs to give it. I love Giles and it's sad to see them still so distant.
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Post by Rebecca on Mar 6, 2008 14:21:02 GMT -5
If Buffy's blood wouldn't have closed the portal, I believe she would have killed Dawn. Maybe. In "Lies My Parents Told Me", Giles asks Buffy if she could go back to the night she jumped off the tower if she would sacrifice Dawn, she said she would. I believe in S5 there was no question to Buffy's morality. After she was brought back in S6, her moral ambiguity was persistently raised. I think Joss here is focusing on that issue by bringing in a "Big Bad" that could be considered good from an objective standpoint. What if the show was "Twilight the PTB Agent"? It could be argued that Buffy has the same level of moral ambiguity that we perceive in Twilight.
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mandikaye
Potential Slayer
Captain Peroxide
[Mo0:0]
Posts: 193
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Post by mandikaye on Mar 6, 2008 14:40:40 GMT -5
Oh, and mandikaye, I have to point out, we have had one example of an evil opponent who thought she was doing the right thing, though it wasn't nearly on the scale that Twilight has introduced us to. Willow. Dark Willow, at first, believed she was doing the right thing by killing off the Big Bads. When she decided to end the world, she still thought she was doing the right thing; she sensed that life brought so much pain to everyone, that she thought the best thing to do was to end it, thus sparing everyone. Again, not on the same scale, cause her mind was clearly twisted by that point, but she did believe she was doing the right thing. Ok. I can see that. When I wrote my original post, I was thinking of Dark Willow only in vengeance for Tara mode, which was clearly selfish. I forgot about the rest of it.
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Post by hunter233 on Mar 6, 2008 19:43:07 GMT -5
I think Joss here is focusing on that issue by bringing in a "Big Bad" that could be considered good from an objective standpoint. What if the show was "Twilight the PTB Agent"? It could be argued that Buffy has the same level of moral ambiguity that we perceive in Twilight. Yes! Thank you! The most ridiculous thing about this whole argument is if we were reading a comic in which Twilight was the hero, and Buffy the Big Bad, people would be talking about how obviously evil she was. Twilight really hasn't done anything that could be construed as blatantly evil, people just keep talking like he has because he's the Big Bad. It's a tad unfair. Try to see things from the other side of the fence. And remember that you can't hold Twilight responsible for what his minions have done. Buffy used Spike when he was still inarguably evil, in order to accomplish a good goal. This could be the same thing. What he's doing isn't "wrong" simply because it's in opposition to Buffy. Also, just think of the name. Twilight. A time when light and dark mix together. When things are eerily obscured. Dictionary.com even defines it as "a state of uncertainty, vagueness, or gloom." Do you think Joss named him that on a random whim? I sincerely doubt it. This guy was made to muddle the waters of right and wrong.
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Post by henzINNIT on Mar 7, 2008 14:01:39 GMT -5
I think Joss here is focusing on that issue by bringing in a "Big Bad" that could be considered good from an objective standpoint. What if the show was "Twilight the PTB Agent"? It could be argued that Buffy has the same level of moral ambiguity that we perceive in Twilight. Yes! Thank you! The most ridiculous thing about this whole argument is if we were reading a comic in which Twilight was the hero, and Buffy the Big Bad, people would be talking about how obviously evil she was. Twilight really hasn't done anything that could be construed as blatantly evil, people just keep talking like he has because he's the Big Bad. It's a tad unfair. Try to see things from the other side of the fence. And remember that you can't hold Twilight responsible for what his minions have done. Buffy used Spike when he was still inarguably evil, in order to accomplish a good goal. This could be the same thing. What he's doing isn't "wrong" simply because it's in opposition to Buffy. Also, just think of the name. Twilight. A time when light and dark mix together. When things are eerily obscured. Dictionary.com even defines it as "a state of uncertainty, vagueness, or gloom." Do you think Joss named him that on a random whim? I sincerely doubt it. This guy was made to muddle the waters of right and wrong. *blesses* Twilight is the perfect catalyst for a morally ambiguous Buffy this season.
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Slayer489
Wise-cracking Techno Genius
"Why do I feel like this? Why do I let Spike do those things to me?" - Buffy 'Dead Things'[Mo0:0]
Posts: 784
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Post by Slayer489 on Mar 8, 2008 9:25:20 GMT -5
I think some of you are unhappy with everything that's going on because we are in the middle of the season. That hasn't happened since 2003. Since then, we've seen and know how it all unfolds. Now we have some uncertainty about what will happen etc. We have that sense of not knowing what will happen. For example, Buffy and Giles aren't on speaking terms now and we can't skip a handful of episodes on our DVD's and see the episode that they make up in and be all "*phew* they're friends again", because these stories have yet to happen. I know it's a long wait, but just give it time to see what happens with everything, including what Twilight gets up to.
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Lukee
Ensouled Vampire
Brilliant is my middle name tbf[Mo0:14]
Posts: 1,137
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Post by Lukee on Mar 8, 2008 13:05:56 GMT -5
If Buffy's blood wouldn't have closed the portal, I believe she would have killed Dawn. Maybe. hehe are you mad she wouldn't have she said so her self. Twilight= NOT Evil well for what we have seen so far. There is no way we can put a label on him saying yes he is evil. We have not seen anything to give himt he name evil yet. Some one said something about Buffy in season 7 knowing the slayers where going to die and all and she could be blamed for that. Twilight pitted slayer on slayer but he didn't kill them he let them do it them selfs. Buffy did the same with Slayer vs uber vamps. So if you call him evil for that then call Buffy evil her self. Twilight says he is doing this for the greater good. How do we know he isn't telling the truth and that Buffy is in fact int he wrong. She gave all this power to girls everywhere as soon as she did that they became names on the hit list of demons. If they where not slayers most of them could have gone there life's which out seeing a demon let along getting killed by one but because of Buffy now they will be killed by Demons. So really its like some one grabbing some one from the street and telling them they have to fight in a war and die. Dose that make Buffy evil then? Why would getting rid of magic be a bad thing anyway [ well apart from no more Buffy] it would help the world wouldn't it? All in all Twilight isn't Evil. Not yet.
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Post by buffysmglover on Mar 8, 2008 14:51:06 GMT -5
I said Definitely, but I can't take the time to read through all of the theories and thoughts.
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Post by Rebecca on Mar 8, 2008 14:52:26 GMT -5
I said Definitely, but I can't take the time to read through all of the theories and thoughts. That's a shame, there are some really great points you're missing
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Post by buffysmglover on Mar 8, 2008 14:53:12 GMT -5
I'll be back and look through them later. I have a Buffy trivia contest in an hour that I still need to prepare for...
WhedonAge.com Chatroom
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Post by henzINNIT on Mar 8, 2008 15:11:48 GMT -5
Vampire Dust, I'm not mad. And thankfully someone reminded me that Buffy DID say she would have killed Dawn. She never did. She said if she was in the same position again (in season 7), she'd let Dawn die. That's comepletely different.
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Post by Rebecca on Mar 8, 2008 16:00:42 GMT -5
Vampire Dust, I'm not mad. And thankfully someone reminded me that Buffy DID say she would have killed Dawn. She never did. She said if she was in the same position again (in season 7), she'd let Dawn die. That's comepletely different. It represents her moral shift after her resurrection.
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Lukee
Ensouled Vampire
Brilliant is my middle name tbf[Mo0:14]
Posts: 1,137
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Post by Lukee on Mar 8, 2008 16:35:38 GMT -5
Buffy right now is nor more evil then Twilight is. If your calling Twilight right now Evil then you should do that same for Buffy. Shes done the same as he as from what we know.
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Post by henzINNIT on Mar 8, 2008 17:21:56 GMT -5
She never did. She said if she was in the same position again (in season 7), she'd let Dawn die. That's comepletely different. It represents her moral shift after her resurrection. Exactly *nods* Buffy right now is nor more evil then Twilight is. If your calling Twilight right now Evil then you should do that same for Buffy. Shes done the same as he as from what we know. Yuppy. It's going to be very interesting watching this develop. Buffy never really dealt with shades of grey, something that Angel did a lot. I think it'd also be an even more unique villain situation if Twilight did turn out to be Riley as a few believe it might. I'm not entirely happy with that personally, but a possible explanation posted here was actually quite satisfying; and a villain with a good cause who is by nature a good guy as well as an old personal friend is one hell of a confusing foe for our hero.
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Slayer489
Wise-cracking Techno Genius
"Why do I feel like this? Why do I let Spike do those things to me?" - Buffy 'Dead Things'[Mo0:0]
Posts: 784
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Post by Slayer489 on Mar 9, 2008 7:59:35 GMT -5
Yeah didn't Buffy say she would have in "Lies My Parents Told Me" to Giles? Maybe that's what The First meant in "Conversations With Dead People" when it told Dawn "Buffy won't choose you, she'll be against you" as in if she had to sacrifice Dawn again she would have IF she HAD to. Or maybe we've yet to see what The First meant. Maybe something will happen in Season 8, unless The First was just stirring up trouble...
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Lukee
Ensouled Vampire
Brilliant is my middle name tbf[Mo0:14]
Posts: 1,137
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Post by Lukee on Mar 9, 2008 9:15:22 GMT -5
In season 6 i think Buffy would have let the world turn to hell to save Dawn, or she would have been suborn and found another way. But in season 7 she had grown she said if she had to she would let Dawn die but she wasn't the same Buffy from season 6.
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Post by henzINNIT on Mar 9, 2008 10:09:02 GMT -5
Do you REALLY think that Buffy was going to let the ENTIRE world die (along with her sister) if her blood wouldn't have closed the portal? Do you really believe that? I seriously doubt that. My gut feeling is that she would have killed Dawn. Saving the world meant so much to Buffy that she killed HERSELF. YES, ABSOLUTE, 100% BELIEF. WHY? Becasue the SEASON, as well as BUFFY herself, TOLD ME so. I'm actually shocked that there's any counter argument here. Buffy's conviction in season 5 regarding Dawn is one of the season's key themes; and beautiful too, I might add. AND for the last time. The conversation between Buffy and Giles in the cemetary in Lies My Parent's Told Me is definitive. BUFFY Giles, we had this conversation when I told you that I wouldn't sacrifice Dawn to stop Glory from destroying the world.
GILES Ah, yes, but things are different, aren't they? After what you've been through, faced with the same choice now, (paces) you'd let her die.
It explains that she changed. She wouldn't have let Dawn die then, but she would NOW.
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Post by Giant Michael on Mar 9, 2008 10:55:40 GMT -5
I'm sorry, I still think she would have killed her if her blood wouldn't have been useful. The fact that she'd have been lying crippled at the bottom of Glory's tower might have put a stop to any future plans. MB x
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