Is Twilight Inherently Evil?

[eriktheslayerboy]

So I think we have establish logic has no meaning in the buffy verse. It doesnt matter if the law could have cointained him. What matters is for all his evil and wrong he has done it was not Willow's place to judge him. This is why in america we have a thing called a trial where people who berely have any idea get to Judge for murder. This is like saying if you told the husband of the old grandma do what you want with the guy who shot your wife in drive by shotting. Well guess whats goanna happen another murder is whats is goanna happen. The only diffrence is the old grandpa isnt one of our favroite cherecters in Buffy so we dont let him do the eye for an eye. Fairness is what should happen in a trial not saying it always does but it should. Willow killing him and getting a clean slate well we are just lucky warrens mother doesnt have a gun or doesnt know who killed her child.

[Rebecca]

michaelbush said:

mikey said:

It's kinda funny though that you think Warren could have been contained by police and be fine in prison. There's no way.

They managed to maintain Ethan right enough. Until Joss needed someone from the series who was expendable for killings in the comics, obviously.

But I always thought the point in Warren was that he used so much showy magic and technology, but never really got anywhere with it. I mean, the geeks did some awful things, but Warren was more of a ringleader than the one doing all the work. Without his cronies, he had to resort to shooting Buffy in order to kill her...

It still didn't work.

Also, I think people forget that Warren wasn't the only person Willow killed.

MB x

I must be completely blanking, and I hope I'm not the only one, but who else did Willow kill? For that matter, what human did Buffy kill that actively wasn't trying to kill her?

[Giant Michael]

scoobiegroupie said:

I must be completely blanking, and I hope I'm not the only one, but who else did Willow kill?

Rack. And she threatened to kill Dawn. And, well, everyone else. She wasn't just killing blindly, they were very specific targets; even if Willow wasn't fully compus mentis, there was a part of her that knew what she was doing. Arguably, Willow killing Warren and Rack is worse than Warren killing Tara; even if he shot to kill, killing Tara was accidental. Willow succeeded.

MB x

[matthewblake]

It's not Willow's decision whether he should live or die. Who the hell is she?

I understand why she did it and I would think I would take revenge on someone for hurting a loved one but look at it what it did to her. I would never want to live with that, taking someone's life.

[xmadxscientistx]

Really, if we were letting off killers that didn't know what they were doing when they killed people, why punish Faith so harshly?

[Rebecca]

mikey said:

Willow killing Rack is worse than Warren killing Tara and almost killing Buffy? Really? lol

I actually agree wholeheartedly. No matter the circumstances, Willow was drunk with evilness at the time. Warren was just Warren. There's a huge difference, and Willow had a better excuse than Warren.

[Rachster]

i really dont think willow killing rack was worse than warren killing Tara and shooting Buffy even though willow was evil i thought it was good rack totally deserved it..and the just creeped me out warren was twisted and Tara was so pure and nice and she didn't deserve to be shot by some annoying power obsessed guy

[hunter233]

patrick said:

Counted to ten.

Ahem.

Willow made a MISTAKE. A terrible MISTAKE, that she'll have to live with the rest of her (long and glorious) LIFE. I'll even say that she committed real, honest-to-Sweet Muppetty Odin (love that phrase!) SINS.

SHE WAS NEVER EVIL.

Okay, I'm cool.

Great topic!

Okie, I suppose I should clarify my meaning. By calling Willow an "evil villain," I meant that she was a villain who had clearly evil goals; end of the world and all that. It was used as an example in an argument about intentions and goals. If I thought she was evil to the core, in her very being, I would not have used her as an example of a villain that had good intentions behind those goals. I think the fact I was pointing out those good, though misguided, intentions should testify to the fact that I do think Willow was not a being of pure evil. Sorry for the confusion, I hope this clarifies.

Aside from that, I feel there are a few points I must make.

First off, how can anyone say that Willow's friends didn't try to help her? Tara obviously did, and she was the first simply because she was experienced in magic and thus knew the problems that could arise from it. When the rest of her friends also realized this, they went out of their way to get her clean, and it would have worked too, if that meddling Warren hadn't interfered.

As for the arguments that Willow was right to kill Warren? Firstly, Warren would never have gotten out of prison. He had no magical ability whatsoever, for things of a magical nature he had to rely on Jonathan and Andrew, that was the whole point of having a trio. He was the tech guy, and unless guards in prisons started getting stupid enough to allow inmates to play with parts for a mega death ray, he woulda been powerless. Not to mention way too busy being everyone's bitch. Guy like him in jail? Doesn't last long. Second, if her killing Warren was perfectly alright and justified, then the show wouldn't have made such a huge damn deal of it. Not to mention she wouldn't have gone all batshit crazy. What she did was wrong, plain and simple. Yes, there are moral shades of grey, even in this instance. But even so, that was something that fell pretty clearly on the side of bad. It's surprising that people could be so adamant that Twilight is evil, while simultaneously justifying what Willow did. Again, I'll have to chalk it up to peoples' mistaken tendency to see a story's protagonists as good, and antagonists as evil.

As for Willow's murderous rampage being more evil than Warren's: it all depends on how you look at it. In general, I'd have to agree that Warren was much more evil. In terms of pure intent though, I could see viewing Willow as more evil. Warren accidentally killed two people, and actively tried to kill one person who had repeatedly, in his eyes, ruined his life. Willow had one of those, but then also killed Rack for nothing more than a boost, intended to kill Dawn for the same reason, did kill Giles if not for a last-second mystical save for, yet again, the same reason. I dunno about you, but taking human lives for no other reason than a little boost of energy that'd last a few hours? That's pretty damn twisted.

I think everyone needs to remember that there's always a million different ways of looking at things. And the crazy thing is that most of them aren't wrong. The only difference is how each person sums it all up to come to a conclusion. So while we may not always agree when it comes to those conclusions, please don't ever assume that one conclusion is the end-all-be-all "right" one. Keep your mind open to the other possibilities as well, even if you don't agree with them. There are no absolutes (the biggest oxymoron of all time).

And finally, lest we have all forgotten, this debate was supposed to be about whether or not Twilight is truly, absolutely evil. While Willow's descent into evil or not-really-evil is an equally fascinating topic, and, truly, a very viable argument pertaining to that debate, let's at least keep those arguments in the framework what it means to Twilight's morality if we want to use them.

EDIT: Yes, I write a lot. Sorry. hehe

[henzINNIT]

hunter333 just owned this thread. 100% agreement.

[Giant Michael]

mikey said:

Willow killing Rack is worse than Warren killing Tara and almost killing Buffy? Really? lol

Beside the point; she still killed someone. A pock-faced crack magic dealer, yes, but it still doesn't justify her killing him.

The way some people view the Buffyverse in black and white - in right and wrong, good and evil - seems to completely defy what was, for me, one of the most prominent themes of the show. I find it truly baffling.

MB x

[henzINNIT]

Ahh yes. That defence is full proof. Next time I murder someone I'll say I was drunk and everyone will understand it wasn't me, it was the influence. I was Dark Henz. Please never become a judge.

michaelbush said:

The way some people view the Buffyverse in black and white - in right and wrong, good and evil - seems to completely defy what was, for me, one of the most prominent themes of the show. I find it truly baffling.

MB x

Can I join you over there in confusion camp please?

[aluminumcandy]

henz said:

Ahh yes. That defence is full proof. Next time I murder someone I'll say I was drunk and everyone will understand it wasn't me, it was the influence. I was Dark Henz.
Please never become a judge.

I agree with you completely Henz. It's the same idea that if Willow had been drunk. She chose to do what she did.

And back to the subject of Twilight. I still think it;s too soon to define him as Evil or not. He seems to have a reason for what he's doing. While I never think "the ends justify the means" I really think we need to know WHY before any one of us can define it.

[Rebecca]

Yes, definately. Back to the topic!

I agree aluminumcandy that we don't know enough to determine why he's on his mission. However, how things are being played out, from the information we have now, I'm inclined to think he's not all that bad.

Furthermore, I think we're supposed to think he's fighting for a just cause.

[aluminumcandy]

Exactly. Knowing that there will be some sort of time travel with Buffy facing off with Fray I still think he could be from the future, on his way back to rid the world of magic in order stop some disastrous thing from happening caused by magic. Just my theory.

On the off chance that might actually be a reasonable quess, can he really be considered evil for that?

[Lukee]

hehe some of the things being said are really silly. Willow was evil at a time. She killed and tried to end the world. That makes up a big bad. She was worse then what Twilight is right now.

Willow killing Warren was not in any way JUSTICE. Killing some one for killing is not right, if you do that your no better then the killer.
People did try to help her. But she fell back through and it was her OWN fault. When people say oh but she was addicted thats a load of crap. If you believe in your self strong enough you will come of the drugs or drink. If not then the actions you make are your own and should be blamed on the drug or what not. So no "Oh but it wasn't Willow it was the magic " Or what not because thats wrong Willow was still in there and was still in control to some level. It was her won fault.

If anything, Willow is guilty of manslaughter. Not murder

Dude you did watch the show right. She murdered them in cold blood. Manslaughter and Murder are totally diffrent... Willow didn't just happen to accidentally kill them.. she wanted Warren dead as soon as Warren accidentally killed Tara.

She should have let the cops take care of him. Like people have said with out sources for his magic he would be just like anyone else in prison. Rotting where he belonged.

[alycat7]

mikey said:

henz said:

Ahh yes. That defence is full proof. Next time I murder someone I'll say I was drunk and everyone will understand it wasn't me, it was the influence. I was Dark Henz. Please never become a judge.

Did I say it wasn't murder? All I said was that it wasn't Willow who did it. Magic completely taking over somebody and a person getting drunk aren't exactly the same thing, pal.

If anything, Willow is guilty of manslaughter. Not murder.

Although Willow wasnt in the right frame of mind, she still murdered people. My problem with her is that, unlike Angel and Faith, Willow has shown no signs of seeking redemtion for what she did. The only thing that she seems to be sorry for is that she over dosed. She takes no responsiblity for what Dark Willow did.

[Lukee]

mikey said:

People apparently don't understand the law.

I think we do. If some one is sent down for killing then thats were they stay... i don't see how he would get out and even if he did it wouldn't have been for years. :\

[henzINNIT]

mikey said:

People apparently don't understand the law.

Indeed. Manslaughter is unintentional murder or murder in the heat of passion. Neither aply. Willow tracked Warren for a day, tortured him, then murdered him.
There wasn't even a provocation for murdering Rack, other than a quick "fix".

[henzINNIT]

mikey said:

Willow was under the influence, she wasn't in control and therefor didn't intentionally kill anybody. That would be manslaughter, not murder.

She was intoxicated. As far as I'm aware, being drunk won't greatly help the defense of someone being tried for torture and murder.

Ironically, Warren would have a better case for manslaughter.

[Lukee]

mikey said:

Except, we're talking about a different universe where magic exists. So this isn't a simple drunk driving incident. Willow was LITERALLY not in control of herself, she wasn't there, the magic was in control of her.

Twilight is kind of like Charles Manson, getting other people to do the deed for him. He's still a murderer.

Willow was still there she was still partly in control, you cant really say she wasn't in control at all because she was if she wasn't she wouldn't have gone to save Buffy.

Twilight isn't a murderer he has not killed anyone ...[yet] he didn't force Gigi to try and kill Faith leading to her death.