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Post by Rebecca on Mar 5, 2008 14:34:12 GMT -5
There is some discussion in the Issue 16 thread about whether Twilight is actually evil.
I think there are some very good arguments either way. Here we can hash it out.
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faith0tvs
Novice Witch
I am the Slayer ask me How[Mo0:4]
Posts: 277
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Post by faith0tvs on Mar 5, 2008 14:59:55 GMT -5
As I have mentioned in the Issue 16 thread, i think that Twilight is some sort of a mercenary hired by some who's benefits are endangered by the increase of the slayer's population , thats all. I believe that there is more to it and wouldnt be surprised if his bosses turn out to be the main villains in season 9. I dont know but somehow it reminds me of the scene in Primeval when we saw some top notch goverment agents and generals discussing Initiative's termination.
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patxshand
Ensouled Vampire
Writer/director/Amy Acker's husband.[Mo0:0]
Posts: 1,918
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Post by patxshand on Mar 5, 2008 15:44:27 GMT -5
See, this changes it up. Being inherently evil couldn't be more different from being evil. If Twilight is inherently evil, that means he is not and has never been a human, because humans are not inherently evil. While "Is Twilight evil?" gets a big ol' duh, this question is so different and gets a very different answer. Until we know Twilight's history and what he specifically is, it's impossible to say if he's inherently evil. Not even the worst human in history is inherently evil. He obviously turned OUT evil, though.
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faith0tvs
Novice Witch
I am the Slayer ask me How[Mo0:4]
Posts: 277
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Post by faith0tvs on Mar 5, 2008 15:58:21 GMT -5
Sure we have to know Twilight's history in order to understand him and his motives but hey people get born with tendancy towards evil doing or evil in general and this only got worse when he experienced some situations or events in his life that made this become an important aspect of his character and eventually his soul
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Post by Jinxieman on Mar 5, 2008 16:22:13 GMT -5
I said Definitely! As I said in the other thread even though he may be working towards, what he considers to be, the Greater Good, he has committed acts that in and of themselves are evil acts. Pitting slayer against slayer and engineering battles and deaths between those who would be his enemies for his own gain and to eliminate those who would be against him so that they can not work to prevent him from his goal is evil. As it was said there are examples of evil working for the "Greater Good." In the Buffyverse we have Jasmine, another one from Joss would be the Operative from Serenity...He admitted that he was evil and working for the greater good. Grindelwald's motto was "For the Greater Good" (he's from Harry Potter...as if you didn't know). And from our very own world history we have Hitler, he thought he was working for the Greater Good.
Twilight is evil whether he knows it or not.
Now, whether he is Inherently evil or not is, as Patxshand pointed out, a completely different question. Was Twilight born/created evil? We cannot know at this point. Are his current actions evil? Definitely!
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mandikaye
Potential Slayer
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[Mo0:0]
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Post by mandikaye on Mar 5, 2008 17:47:10 GMT -5
I know I'm in the vast minority here, but I don't think he's evil. At least not like any of the other big bads that we've ever seen in the Buffyverse. Joss has never shown us an evil opponent who thought what they were doing was the right thing. Ever. And usually, when they're being all evil, they're doing what they're doing to benefit themselves. Twilight, on the other hand, has spoken of the greater good. He's doing what he's doing because he thinks the world will benefit from it.
I know that someone brought up Hitler in the earlier thread, but I would argue that he was doing what he was doing out of *completely* selfish reasons. Twilight seems to be different, to me.
I'll probably be proven completely wrong when the story is played out, but for now, I just don't think he's truly evil.
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Post by Rebecca on Mar 5, 2008 18:23:04 GMT -5
Hmm... I was surprised to see patxshand talk about the difference of being evil and inherently evil, like you'd have to be born evil to be inherently evil.
I do not make that distinction. Thanks to my lucky free online dictionary, "inherent" is "existing as an essential constituent or characteristic". I take that to my original question "Is Twilight Inherently Evil" as "is he all bad"? Or on the flip side, is he fighting on the side of good? I don't see it as asking if he's human per se, because as we can see, many demons are good and many humans are bad.
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Post by henzINNIT on Mar 5, 2008 19:24:42 GMT -5
I think some people are over-thinking this...lol Twilight is bad. He is the big bad. He, like Hitler, wants to do bad things for what he believes to be the better good. I'd say that's evil. lololololol from the guy seemingly underthinking it. Funny how things differ in different context for some people. Interesting comparison to Buffy robbing banks now eh? She's like the big bad... she does bad things for the greater good. I'd say that's evil. *smiley face* If she really has robbed banks, I don't see a problem in it. I mean, she either does that...or she doesn't have the resources she needs to save the world. Hmm, let's weigh the two. People being upset over losing money...versus...everybody dying. Hmm. Gee...lol I'd be greatly disapointed if Joss doesn't built toward this obvious parrellel between this comic's good and evil.
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Post by Rebecca on Mar 5, 2008 19:31:51 GMT -5
I think some people are over-thinking this...lol Twilight is bad. He is the big bad. He, like Hitler, wants to do bad things for what he believes to be the better good. I'd say that's evil. lololololol from the guy seemingly underthinking it. Funny how things differ in different context for some people. Interesting comparison to Buffy robbing banks now eh? She's like the big bad... she does bad things for the greater good. I'd say that's evil. *smiley face* If she really has robbed banks, I don't see a problem in it. I mean, she either does that...or she doesn't have the resources she needs to save the world. Hmm, let's weigh the two. People being upset over losing money...versus...everybody dying. Hmm. Gee...lol I'd be greatly disapointed if Joss doesn't built toward this obvious parrellel between this comic's good and evil. Thank you. +1
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Post by henzINNIT on Mar 5, 2008 19:39:13 GMT -5
Well that's the thing nowadays isn't it? I think Buffy IS becoming that person.
She said in season 7 that she'd let Dawn die for the world, then she moved on to bank robbery. Whats to say a couple of deaths for good won't be ignored or even justified.
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Post by Rebecca on Mar 5, 2008 20:13:17 GMT -5
Is it selfless if you sacrifice someone else?
It was also alluded to at the end of the first arc that the "human race" has declared war on Buffy, that she is no longer considered human.
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alycat7
Wise-cracking Techno Genius
I don't wanna be this good looking and athletic. We all have crosses to bear - Spike[Mo0:4]
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Post by alycat7 on Mar 5, 2008 20:18:00 GMT -5
Twilight may not even be evil at all. Just because he is fighting against Buffy and trying to end magic that oesn't mean that his intensions are bad. Until he down right murders half the slayers, im not convinced that he is evil.
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patxshand
Ensouled Vampire
Writer/director/Amy Acker's husband.[Mo0:0]
Posts: 1,918
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Post by patxshand on Mar 5, 2008 20:37:14 GMT -5
Hmm... I was surprised to see patxshand talk about the difference of being evil and inherently evil, like you'd have to be born evil to be inherently evil. Inherent means by nature, having always been a part of something. "Inherently evil" absolutely means evil by nature.
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patxshand
Ensouled Vampire
Writer/director/Amy Acker's husband.[Mo0:0]
Posts: 1,918
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Post by patxshand on Mar 5, 2008 20:38:19 GMT -5
Twilight may not even be evil at all. Just because he is fighting against Buffy and trying to end magic that oesn't mean that his intensions are bad. Until he down right murders half the slayers, im not convinced that he is evil. Well, he already manipulated a situation that lead to Gigi and Roden to die. Just check'em out. He's madd evil. (lol)
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alycat7
Wise-cracking Techno Genius
I don't wanna be this good looking and athletic. We all have crosses to bear - Spike[Mo0:4]
Posts: 752
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Post by alycat7 on Mar 5, 2008 23:15:20 GMT -5
Twilight may not even be evil at all. Just because he is fighting against Buffy and trying to end magic that oesn't mean that his intensions are bad. Until he down right murders half the slayers, im not convinced that he is evil. Well, he already manipulated a situation that lead to Gigi and Roden to die. Just check'em out. He's madd evil. (lol) In season 7, in the final fight, Buffy knew that some of the girls would die, but she did it anyways for the greater good. If Twilight believes that what he's doing is for the best, sacrificing two people to him is worth it.
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alycat7
Wise-cracking Techno Genius
I don't wanna be this good looking and athletic. We all have crosses to bear - Spike[Mo0:4]
Posts: 752
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Post by alycat7 on Mar 5, 2008 23:27:47 GMT -5
Im not saying she killed them, Im just saying that she knew damn well that not everyone was gonna live. Maybe Twilight has the same mindset.
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Post by hunter233 on Mar 6, 2008 3:27:09 GMT -5
To be perfectly honest, I'd be disappointed if Joss did make Twilight outright evil. So far, I've felt that the moral ambiguity Twilight has brought to the forefront has not only been the best thing about this season, but the very theme of the season itself. From the moment Buffy's response to "You're at war with the human race" was a simple "Kay," that has been what has justified there even being a continuation to Buffy. It's something new, something we haven't seen before, not just another Big Bad to fight just to sell more Buffy. Not that I'm saying that Buffy and Twilight shouldn't have their big battle at the end, but when the dust settles on that battle, and our inevitably victorious Slayer rides off into that beautiful sunset, I think we should be left with some serious questions whether it was for the best.
It's odd some of the arguments people are bringing up to claim that he's "clearly evil." Mainly because by those arguments, several of our heroes would be defined as "clearly evil." Giles is clearly evil because he killed Ben so Glory wouldn't come back. Buffy's clearly evil because she got Spike to help her kill her enemies, eventually leading to his death. I think you guys should pay closer attention to your arguments, before we end up declaring the entire Buffyverse "clearly evil."
Oh, and mandikaye, I have to point out, we have had one example of an evil opponent who thought she was doing the right thing, though it wasn't nearly on the scale that Twilight has introduced us to. Willow. Dark Willow, at first, believed she was doing the right thing by killing off the Big Bads. When she decided to end the world, she still thought she was doing the right thing; she sensed that life brought so much pain to everyone, that she thought the best thing to do was to end it, thus sparing everyone. Again, not on the same scale, cause her mind was clearly twisted by that point, but she did believe she was doing the right thing.
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alycat7
Wise-cracking Techno Genius
I don't wanna be this good looking and athletic. We all have crosses to bear - Spike[Mo0:4]
Posts: 752
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Post by alycat7 on Mar 6, 2008 6:15:56 GMT -5
To be perfectly honest, I'd be disappointed if Joss did make Twilight outright evil. So far, I've felt that the moral ambiguity Twilight has brought to the forefront has not only been the best thing about this season, but the very theme of the season itself. From the moment Buffy's response to "You're at war with the human race" was a simple "Kay," that has been what has justified there even being a continuation to Buffy. It's something new, something we haven't seen before, not just another Big Bad to fight just to sell more Buffy. Not that I'm saying that Buffy and Twilight shouldn't have their big battle at the end, but when the dust settles on that battle, and our inevitably victorious Slayer rides off into that beautiful sunset, I think we should be left with some serious questions whether it was for the best. It's odd some of the arguments people are bringing up to claim that he's "clearly evil." Mainly because by those arguments, several of our heroes would be defined as "clearly evil." Giles is clearly evil because he killed Ben so Glory wouldn't come back. Buffy's clearly evil because she got Spike to help her kill her enemies, eventually leading to his death. I think you guys should pay closer attention to your arguments, before we end up declaring the entire Buffyverse "clearly evil." Oh, and mandikaye, I have to point out, we have had one example of an evil opponent who thought she was doing the right thing, though it wasn't nearly on the scale that Twilight has introduced us to. Willow. Dark Willow, at first, believed she was doing the right thing by killing off the Big Bads. When she decided to end the world, she still thought she was doing the right thing; she sensed that life brought so much pain to everyone, that she thought the best thing to do was to end it, thus sparing everyone. Again, not on the same scale, cause her mind was clearly twisted by that point, but she did believe she was doing the right thing. good points.
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airgirl
Initiative Soldier
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Post by airgirl on Mar 6, 2008 9:14:06 GMT -5
i would be very surprised if there wasn't some ambiguity about whether or not Twilight is inherently and totally evil.
Of all the Buffy big bads, there was only the Master and The First who could be described as truly evil to the core. Even with Glory there was ambiguity, because she was also Ben. The mayor and the trio and the initiative were human, had souls and therefore couldn't be 100% evil (even though the mayor had sold his soul) and though Angelus was evil, he was not beyond redemption because Angel came back
I guess there's a distinction to be made here between being evil and doing evil
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Rachster
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Post by Rachster on Mar 6, 2008 9:23:24 GMT -5
He's evil.... I think its that simple. Even if he thinks what he's doing is good, I don't think that makes a difference. What he's doing is wrong. If he can't see that, he needs help.
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