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Post by henzINNIT on Mar 9, 2008 11:20:54 GMT -5
^ hahahahahaha I'm sorry, I still think she would have killed her if her blood wouldn't have been useful. S'alright. I've been around long enough to know proof wouldn't change your mind. I wanted to clear up the Buffy/Giles convo confusion here regardless though to stop people misinterpreting it.
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Post by henzINNIT on Mar 9, 2008 18:08:29 GMT -5
Rude? You don't take sarcasm at all well do you? (where's the hug smiley)
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matthewblake
Respected Watcher
Is it bright where you are?[Mo0:0]
Posts: 588
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Post by matthewblake on Mar 9, 2008 19:33:38 GMT -5
If Buffy's blood wouldn't have closed the portal, I believe she would have killed Dawn. Maybe. But that's not what happened so we don't have to argue about it.
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patrick
Potential Slayer
Wiffy 'Shipper
Posts: 165
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Post by patrick on Mar 10, 2008 18:42:09 GMT -5
Oh, and mandikaye, I have to point out, we have had one example of an evil opponent who thought she was doing the right thing, though it wasn't nearly on the scale that Twilight has introduced us to. Willow. Dark Willow, at first, believed she was doing the right thing by killing off the Big Bads. When she decided to end the world, she still thought she was doing the right thing; she sensed that life brought so much pain to everyone, that she thought the best thing to do was to end it, thus sparing everyone. Again, not on the same scale, cause her mind was clearly twisted by that point, but she did believe she was doing the right thing. Ok. I can see that. When I wrote my original post, I was thinking of Dark Willow only in vengeance for Tara mode, which was clearly selfish. I forgot about the rest of it. Counted to ten. Ahem. Willow made a MISTAKE. A terrible MISTAKE, that she'll have to live with the rest of her (long and glorious) LIFE. I'll even say that she committed real, honest-to-Sweet Muppetty Odin (love that phrase!) SINS. SHE WAS NEVER EVIL. Okay, I'm cool. Great topic!
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Post by Rebecca on Mar 10, 2008 19:01:36 GMT -5
Ok. I can see that. When I wrote my original post, I was thinking of Dark Willow only in vengeance for Tara mode, which was clearly selfish. I forgot about the rest of it. Counted to ten. Ahem. Willow made a MISTAKE. A terrible MISTAKE, that she'll have to live with the rest of her (long and glorious) LIFE.. I'll even say that committed real, honest-to-Sweet Muppetty Odin (love that phrase!) SINS. SHE WAS NEVER EVIL. Okay, I'm cool. Great topic! I see Willow as fairly evil in Dark Willow mode, but I didn't see her in pitch black; which is why Xander was able to talk her down. This is related back to Twilight as Evil because it could be said that he isn't as bad as many of our other villains in the past. In fact, with how the Buffster is behaving this season, and from an objective standpoint, Twilight may be more Good than Buffy (atm, imho).
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patrick
Potential Slayer
Wiffy 'Shipper
Posts: 165
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Post by patrick on Mar 10, 2008 19:53:45 GMT -5
I see Willow as fairly evil in Dark Willow mode, but I didn't see her in pitch black; which is why Xander was able to talk her down. This is related back to Twilight as Evil because it could be said that he isn't as bad as many of our other villains in the past. In fact, with how the Buffster is behaving this season, and from an objective standpoint, Twilight may be more Good than Buffy (atm, imho). He was able to talk her down because the script required it. Can't deny it was a great moment. I hated, hated, hated, hated "Dark Willow" and I'd rather avoid talking it about if possible.
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patrick
Potential Slayer
Wiffy 'Shipper
Posts: 165
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Post by patrick on Mar 11, 2008 12:34:23 GMT -5
Willow was never really "evil". She lost control of her addiction and dark magics took over her. While she is to blame for allowing that to happen to herself, her friends are also partially to blame for enabling her and not helping. Darn right!
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Post by Rebecca on Mar 11, 2008 12:50:27 GMT -5
I revert to my previous statement that the Buffyverse isn't in black and white. It's shades of gray.
I maintain that Willow did turn evil, though not all the way. She had a little of that sweet, mousey Willow in there, however the dark magics (i.e. EVIL) that took over her masked that.
I am actually quite surprised at how many people still view it as dichotomous. The issue of evilness as a continuum has been expressed throughout the Buffyverse since almost the very beginning.
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Post by henzINNIT on Mar 11, 2008 17:04:03 GMT -5
The magical influence doesn't change what happened to Willow. She was pretty evil for a while there.
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eriktheslayerboy
Potential Slayer
"I like blue jeans and Irony." MechaDawn[Mo0:0]
Posts: 138
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Post by eriktheslayerboy on Mar 11, 2008 18:36:20 GMT -5
The magical influence doesn't change what happened to Willow. She was pretty evil for a while there. I agree she did go evil. She killed for revange I dont think she wanted to destroy the world out of revenge i believed she truely believed it was better for the human race becuse she believed it was nothing but pain. So less evil but evil yes. I would say so. I cant say its really like drugs its more like she made wrong choices stuff happened and she made a bad choice.
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eriktheslayerboy
Potential Slayer
"I like blue jeans and Irony." MechaDawn[Mo0:0]
Posts: 138
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Post by eriktheslayerboy on Mar 11, 2008 23:39:03 GMT -5
Justice? I am sorry but he didnt actually even mean to shot her. Sure he aimed for Buffy and planned to kill her but Justice? All in all it really was a accident he didnt deserve to die for that accident.
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Post by xmadxscientistx on Mar 11, 2008 23:47:48 GMT -5
Meh. Moral high ground is kind of uncommon in Buffy.
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Post by Rebecca on Mar 12, 2008 5:26:45 GMT -5
Justice? I am sorry but he didnt actually even mean to shot her. Sure he aimed for Buffy and planned to kill her but Justice? All in all it really was a accident he didnt deserve to die for that accident. Maybe not specifically for killing Tara, but he did attempt to murder Buffy and kill (albeit accidentally) Katrina and Tara. The fact that he showed no remorse begs for his death in a show like this one.
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Post by Giant Michael on Mar 12, 2008 7:34:22 GMT -5
Justice? I am sorry but he didnt actually even mean to shot her. Sure he aimed for Buffy and planned to kill her but Justice? All in all it really was a accident he didnt deserve to die for that accident. You'll find that big scary death is the common solution to all problems on this forum. Even if it's explicitly stated within the show that Slayers don't - shouldn't - kill humans, and that humans have their own set of laws for dealing with murder. Someone kills? Big scary death for them! Unless it's Willow. Or Buffy. Or Spike. Angel. Anya. Giles. Or Faith. Actually, anyone the fans like. A few witticisms and a shot in the opening montage and you're off the hook... Who said anything about logic? MB x
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dane5by5
Wise-cracking Techno Genius
[Mo0:0]
Posts: 734
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Post by dane5by5 on Mar 12, 2008 8:12:55 GMT -5
Justice? I am sorry but he didnt actually even mean to shot her. Sure he aimed for Buffy and planned to kill her but Justice? All in all it really was a accident he didnt deserve to die for that accident. You'll find that big scary death is the common solution to all problems on this forum. Even if it's explicitly stated within the show that Slayers don't - shouldn't - kill humans, and that humans have their own set of laws for dealing with murder. Someone kills? Big scary death for them! Unless it's Willow. Or Buffy. Or Spike. Angel. Anya. Giles. Or Faith. Actually, anyone the fans like. A few witticisms and a shot in the opening montage and you're off the hook... Who said anything about logic? MB x Very true. Although out of curiosity who did Buffy kill? I genuinely can't remember.
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Post by henzINNIT on Mar 12, 2008 9:06:44 GMT -5
Human laws would have contained Warren. With no access to borrowed magic or parts he'd be useless. And even if he could find a way to gather power in prison, the show makes it clear time and time again it wasn't Willow's place to kill him off, because she did it out of revenge. But of course your constant, unrelenting defence of your favourite character may sway you on this. Very true. Although out of curiosity who did Buffy kill? I genuinely can't remember. First ones that come to mind are the knights she wasted in "Spiral". There may have been others.
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mandikaye
Potential Slayer
Captain Peroxide
[Mo0:0]
Posts: 193
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Post by mandikaye on Mar 12, 2008 10:27:01 GMT -5
He *did* die though. Just because Joss forgot and brought him back doesn't mean that he didn't die.
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Post by aluminumcandy on Mar 12, 2008 10:38:53 GMT -5
She isn't my favorite character for no reason Henz. I'm not a robotic follower. I like her for how she's been written, and the things Joss has come up with for her. It's kinda funny though that you think Warren could have been contained by police and be fine in prison. There's no way. He was a direct threat to everybody around him, a loose cannon. He had to be exterminated. And since he had just murdered her girlfriend, I think Willow was a good choice to deliver that judgement. ^_^ Granted, she could have done it without skinning him...but still, hahaha. And he didn't even die, so she's not really a murderer. If he's in prison, how exactly would he be a threat? If memory serves, he was the mechanical one of the group. His best contribution was building weapons and robots and such. Anything magical related was because he needed to obtain it. He alone didn't posses any or enough magic to really justify him being a threat alone. Lock him up in a cell and I think he would be SOL. And as far as Willow goes, it could technically still be defined as attempted manslaughter because she intended to kill him. Which is still punishable by law. But looking at it from Willow's perspective, I can only imagine how it must be for her. She fully wanted to kill him and her mind she did. Now having to actually face the person she "killed" can't be good on her psyche.
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Post by Giant Michael on Mar 12, 2008 10:39:42 GMT -5
It's kinda funny though that you think Warren could have been contained by police and be fine in prison. There's no way. They managed to maintain Ethan right enough. Until Joss needed someone from the series who was expendable for killings in the comics, obviously. But I always thought the point in Warren was that he used so much showy magic and technology, but never really got anywhere with it. I mean, the geeks did some awful things, but Warren was more of a ringleader than the one doing all the work. Without his cronies, he had to resort to shooting Buffy in order to kill her... It still didn't work. Also, I think people forget that Warren wasn't the only person Willow killed. MB x
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