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Post by sosa lola on Oct 24, 2010 12:36:29 GMT -5
It's somoething I think of every time Xander gets angry about Spike attempting to rape Buffy. It wasn't entirely his fault as he was possessed and thus acting on primal instincts, but then again Spike had no soul at the time. And Spike had enough moral sense to seek redemption, whereas Xander pretended to forget the whole thing. There's a big difference between Xander and Spike. Soulless Spike actually IS Spike but without a conscience. Hyena Xander is a hyena acting on Xander's desires and emotions. Soulless Spike claimed to love Buffy and never hurt her, but he did, he attempted to rape her. That's why he sought redemption by getting himself a soul. Xander was possessed by an animal, unable to control his actions, his body being controlled by something else, and he only regained control once the hyena left his body. He's not responsible for what the hyena did while taking over his body, therefore, he didn't need redemption and he didn't have to apologize for something he didn't do. As for Angel and Spike, Xander disliked Angel because he liked Buffy. Angel was a romantic rival. And then Angel lost his soul and became a monster. Xander's reasons for hating Angel aren't about Angel being a vampire -or else he'd have hated Oz for being a werewolf or Amy for being a witch. He didn't. With Spike, it's quite similar to why Willow disliked Anya. Lousy first impression, trying to kill Buffy and her friends, betraying them with Adam, trying to get his chip removed and then attempting to bite Buffy, having creepy obsessive love for Buffy where he chains her and demands she loves him or he'd kill her, making fun of Xander, always showing his cold, bad side to Xander... Xander and Spike disliked each other, so it's not just a Xander thing. When we get to S7, Xander's attitude changes toward Spike and become more positive, because Spike actually changes and becomes a better person. (And because Xander learned to trust Buffy and respect her choices after Selfless |
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Post by Skytteflickan88 on Oct 24, 2010 13:03:35 GMT -5
Nothing consensual about Dracula, but I don't know if they did anything sexual other than the biting. Coal cellar? I only remember the bride with Angelus, and Spike joking about it until it turned out it was Dru. Then there was Spike saying he wanted to "have" Willow and almost not caring she said no (and him saying he had "had" a shopkeeper, and if it was the one he bit, that was probably not consensual). Wow, there was a lot of rape-stuff in the shows. I had repressed that. I always thought Buffy and Drac had sex. I remember I used to say that Joyce and Giles had sex in Band Candy and people didn't believe it until Earshot came along. I always thought Willow and Tara were lovers too and a lot of people didn't buy that until it became text. Come to think of it, what happened between Joyce and Drac? In case they had sex, that would definitly be rape. Buffy thought he was evil, wanted to kill him, then got thralled and did stuff she didn't want to do. If sex was one of them, it was rape. I like to think neither Joyce nor Buffy was assulated, but maybe Dracula's power was strong enough to make them forget permanently (if Buffy had remembered being raped, I think we would have seen a stronger reaction on screen). I don't recall anyone saying they were raped. Killed yes, raped no. That's speculation. Could have happened, but no reason to assume it definitely happened. As for Angel and Spike, Xander disliked Angel because he liked Buffy. Angel was a romantic rival. And then Angel lost his soul and became a monster. Xander's reasons for hating Angel aren't about Angel being a vampire -or else he'd have hated Oz for being a werewolf or Amy for being a witch. He didn't. I have to disagree here. The scoobies did not see werewolves and witches and vampires the same way. They hated vampires because they were evil creatures. They did not hate werewolves, because they saw werewolves as humans with a desease that acted up three nights per month, and witches as normal people with special powers. They didn't see them as 100 per cent evil, as they did vampires, who they always seemed to assume were evil, unless they had a soul. And let's not forget that it was personal for Xander with vampires: One of his best friends got turned into one and became evil. To sum up: Xander loathed Angel not just because of him being a rival, but also because he was a vampire. |
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Post by joxerlives on Oct 24, 2010 15:15:52 GMT -5
I always thought Buffy and Drac had sex. I remember I used to say that Joyce and Giles had sex in Band Candy and people didn't believe it until Earshot came along. I always thought Willow and Tara were lovers too and a lot of people didn't buy that until it became text. Come to think of it, what happened between Joyce and Drac? In case they had sex, that would definitly be rape. Buffy thought he was evil, wanted to kill him, then got thralled and did stuff she didn't want to do. If sex was one of them, it was rape. I like to think neither Joyce nor Buffy was assulated, but maybe Dracula's power was strong enough to make them forget permanently (if Buffy had remembered being raped, I think we would have seen a stronger reaction on screen). I don't recall anyone saying they were raped. Killed yes, raped no. That's speculation. Could have happened, but no reason to assume it definitely happened. As for Angel and Spike, Xander disliked Angel because he liked Buffy. Angel was a romantic rival. And then Angel lost his soul and became a monster. Xander's reasons for hating Angel aren't about Angel being a vampire -or else he'd have hated Oz for being a werewolf or Amy for being a witch. He didn't. I have to disagree here. The scoobies did not see werewolves and witches and vampires the same way. They hated vampires because they were evil creatures. They did not hate werewolves, because they saw werewolves as humans with a desease that acted up three nights per month, and witches as normal people with special powers. They didn't see them as 100 per cent evil, as they did vampires, who they always seemed to assume were evil, unless they had a soul. And let's not forget that it was personal for Xander with vampires: One of his best friends got turned into one and became evil. To sum up: Xander loathed Angel not just because of him being a rival, but also because he was a vampire. I think Buffy was drawn to Dracula because of her own dark, demonic essence much as Faith went evil because she was attracted to the Mayor. I think ultimately she resisted because she had Joyce, she had Dawn, she had the Scoobs, she knew what she was fighting FOR and not just what she was fighting against. If Buffy and Dracula had sex it wasn't rape, she wanted him/it (and you might say the same of Buffy and the Master) but she didn't want whatever came with it. That's why Buffy is the exceptional Slayer and that's why Buffy is better than all the rest, she has her friends and family to fall back upon |
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Post by Randi Giles on Oct 24, 2010 15:25:40 GMT -5
If Buffy and Dracula had sex it was because she wanted it? I don't think so. I have to wonder how did you come to that conclusion because if they did had sex it was while she was under his thrall and that would be rape. Since she no longer has control.
Edit - Although I don't think it went that far.
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Post by SOMNAMBULIST 2.0 on Oct 24, 2010 17:16:04 GMT -5
Yeah, Xander did try to rape Buffy when the Hyena's possessed him. When Buffy dragged him inside the cage in the library, she said something about him trying to rape her. I can't remember the exact words.
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Post by joxerlives on Oct 24, 2010 19:26:24 GMT -5
If Buffy and Dracula had sex it was because she wanted it? I don't think so. I have to wonder how did you come to that conclusion because if they did had sex it was while she was under his thrall and that would be rape. Since she no longer has control. Edit - Although I don't think it went that far. Because she was tempted by her dark, demonic side? Much as she eventually succumbs to Spike? |
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Post by Skytteflickan88 on Oct 24, 2010 20:49:08 GMT -5
^^ But that's not the point. She could think "He's hot" but the moment her choice is taken away, it doesn't matter if she wants him or not, the only thing that matter is that she's taken by force, not free will.
How could it not be rape if the girl has no say in the matter? How is it different from when a girl gets drugged and does things she normally wouldn't, or if she's threatened to have sex?
I was once hot for a guy, and he ended up stalking me home, and I think he might have raped me if I had opened when the door bell rang. Doesn't mean it was less of a rape than if I had found him 100 per cent disgusting.
And why do you think Faith was attracted by the Mayor? That's some subtext I wasn't aware of.
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Post by tkts on Oct 24, 2010 22:57:58 GMT -5
Yeah, Xander did try to rape Buffy when the Hyena's possessed him. When Buffy dragged him inside the cage in the library, she said something about him trying to rape her. I can't remember the exact words. "Oh my god, Xander! What happened?" "I hit him." "With what?" "A desk. He tried his hand at felony sexual assault." "Oh, Buffy, the hyena in him didn't --" "No. No, but it's safe to say that in his animal state his idea of wooing doesn't involve a Yanni CD and a bottle of Chianti." |
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Post by joxerlives on Oct 25, 2010 3:23:03 GMT -5
^^ But that's not the point. She could think "He's hot" but the moment her choice is taken away, it doesn't matter if she wants him or not, the only thing that matter is that she's taken by force, not free will. How could it not be rape if the girl has no say in the matter? How is it different from when a girl gets drugged and does things she normally wouldn't, or if she's threatened to have sex? I was once hot for a guy, and he ended up stalking me home, and I think he might have raped me if I had opened when the door bell rang. Doesn't mean it was less of a rape than if I had found him 100 per cent disgusting. And why do you think Faith was attracted by the Mayor? That's some subtext I wasn't aware of. I think the whole point of Dracula is that he seduces Buffy rather than enthralls her as Giles points out in his briefing. He could have sired her that night but he wants her to be his willingly. I think Faith was won over by the Mayor although more as a sugardaddy than a boyfriend |
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Post by Randi Giles on Oct 25, 2010 6:38:47 GMT -5
^^ But that's not the point. She could think "He's hot" but the moment her choice is taken away, it doesn't matter if she wants him or not, the only thing that matter is that she's taken by force, not free will. How could it not be rape if the girl has no say in the matter? How is it different from when a girl gets drugged and does things she normally wouldn't, or if she's threatened to have sex? I was once hot for a guy, and he ended up stalking me home, and I think he might have raped me if I had opened when the door bell rang. Doesn't mean it was less of a rape than if I had found him 100 per cent disgusting. And why do you think Faith was attracted by the Mayor? That's some subtext I wasn't aware of. I think the whole point of Dracula is that he seduces Buffy rather than enthralls her as Giles points out in his briefing. He could have sired her that night but he wants her to be his willingly. I think Faith was won over by the Mayor although more as a sugardaddy than a boyfriend Now I'm confuse. In a way there was contradictory in you post. First you say according to Giles he seduces her, applying that she wasn't under his thrall, but then you say he didn't sire her because he wanted her to be willing that night. This will mean that night she was under his thrall and she wouldn't have had freewill. I don't remember Giles saying Dracula seduces Buffy rather than enthralls her. I always thought it was quite clear that Buffy was under his thrall. I'll have to do a re-watch today. |
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Post by sosa lola on Oct 25, 2010 7:21:38 GMT -5
I have to disagree here. The scoobies did not see werewolves and witches and vampires the same way. They hated vampires because they were evil creatures. They did not hate werewolves, because they saw werewolves as humans with a desease that acted up three nights per month, and witches as normal people with special powers. They didn't see them as 100 per cent evil, as they did vampires, who they always seemed to assume were evil, unless they had a soul. And let's not forget that it was personal for Xander with vampires: One of his best friends got turned into one and became evil. To sum up: Xander loathed Angel not just because of him being a rival, but also because he was a vampire. You're probably right about the differences between vampires and werewolves and witches. But I think Xander would have disliked Angel whether he was a vampire or a human. He disliked him before he knew he was a vampire. I think the reason why I don't consider Xander a hypocrite here is because Xander thinks that Angel and Angelus are the same person minus the conscience. The soul just gives Angel an understanding of what's right and wrong; it doesn't force him to do right. Xander - as a hyena- was forced to do the bad actions, unlike a vampire who's capable of controlling his actions -Xander couldn't. So, the comparison isn't right. |
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Post by joxerlives on Oct 25, 2010 15:55:49 GMT -5
I think the whole point of Dracula is that he seduces Buffy rather than enthralls her as Giles points out in his briefing. He could have sired her that night but he wants her to be his willingly. I think Faith was won over by the Mayor although more as a sugardaddy than a boyfriend Now I'm confuse. In a way there was contradictory in you post. First you say according to Giles he seduces her, applying that she wasn't under his thrall, but then you say he didn't sire her because he wanted her to be willing that night. This will mean that night she was under his thrall and she wouldn't have had freewill. I don't remember Giles saying Dracula seduces Buffy rather than enthralls her. I always thought it was quite clear that Buffy was under his thrall. I'll have to do a re-watch today. Watch the ep and check out the scene where Giles is telling the rest of the Scoobs about Dracula. And Buffy isn't under Drac's thrall, she's not like Xander, here is a degree of seduction here |
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Post by Randi Giles on Oct 25, 2010 16:13:54 GMT -5
I agree that she wasn't under like Xander was, but to a certain degree she was. You can tell in the last scene between Dracula and Buffy.
DRACULA: Put the stake down.
BUFFY: Okay. Right. That ... was not ... you. (Sounding unconvinced) I did that. I did that because ... I wanted to.
BUFFY: Maybe I should rethink that thrall thing.
I really don't think Buffy let Dracula bite her out of her own freewill. I think she was somewhat in denial about being under his thrall, but she did fight her way through it unlike Xander.
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Post by Skytteflickan88 on Oct 25, 2010 19:49:38 GMT -5
I agree. She didn't lose her free will completely, or get as deep as Xander, but it's definitely clear to me that she's not 100 per cent herself. And it's not just because he seduced her, it's because he weakened her will to do what she wanted. Or maybe he just took away some of her dislike of the dark, o she would give into her urges. Either way, not her choice, ergo, rape.
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Post by sosa lola on Oct 26, 2010 14:07:46 GMT -5
That's why I'm happy we have S8. Xander fighting Dracula's thrall and winning is one of the greatest moments in the season.
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Post by joxerlives on Oct 27, 2010 3:27:33 GMT -5
That's why I'm happy we have S8. Xander fighting Dracula's thrall and winning is one of the greatest moments in the season. Agreed, Xander and Dracula's very odd relationship with it's gay overtones is one of my favourite aspects of season 8.  As for Buffy and Drac maybe the thrall was the equivalent to buying her a drink and lowering her inhibitions? With the exception of Spike/Buffy in the bathroom there's a great deal of ambiguity about some of the more weird and forceful sex scenes in Buffy/Angel but it is a series that deals with dark and kinky desires |
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SOMNAMBULIST 2.0
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Post by SOMNAMBULIST 2.0 on Oct 27, 2010 14:11:52 GMT -5
Thank you, tkts! That's what tells you he tried to rape Buffy. Poor Buffy. Two attempted rapes?
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Post by Skytteflickan88 on Oct 27, 2010 15:31:21 GMT -5
That's why I'm happy we have S8. Xander fighting Dracula's thrall and winning is one of the greatest moments in the season. Agreed, Xander and Dracula's very odd relationship with it's gay overtones is one of my favourite aspects of season 8. As for Buffy and Drac maybe the thrall was the equivalent to buying her a drink and lowering her inhibitions? With the exception of Spike/Buffy in the bathroom there's a great deal of ambiguity about some of the more weird and forceful sex scenes in Buffy/Angel but it is a series that deals with dark and kinky desires Maybe a drink filled with lots of the kind of drug/chemical Ted used in the cookies. That he forced her to drink. Seriously, it's not like she said *thrall me* and got under his spell volunteerly and then acted like a chick who had a few to drink, she acted like she'd been lobotomized. Buffy would not let a evil vampire bite her like that, or act like a insecure Bella (yes, Twilight-Bella had more of a backbone, free will and pride than Buffy in that episode). Sorry, but I don't see any ambiguity. She didn't choose to "lower her inhibitions", he forced her too. Then she got un-thralled, and did what she wanted to do before the thrall happened. Staked him. |
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Post by joxerlives on Oct 27, 2010 16:03:59 GMT -5
Thank you, tkts! That's what tells you he tried to rape Buffy. Poor Buffy. Two attempted rapes? Actually I make it 7, one of which arguably succeeds? I do see ambiguity with Buffy/Drac, she's obviously attracted to him (as indeed is Willow) and there is a degree of willingness in her succumbing to him, he senses her dark energy and she's attracted to his |
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Post by Randi Giles on Oct 27, 2010 16:35:04 GMT -5
SEVEN?! Out of curiosity I have to know. All that I can think of is the ones we've already discussed.
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