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Post by henzINNIT on Jan 30, 2008 17:09:44 GMT -5
On paper... Yes. Even if you don't count him as 200-odd and his actual age at death he's still around 20. They manage to avoid wierdness though so bravo writing staff.
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Post by sagewoman on Jan 30, 2008 17:40:09 GMT -5
Got to say No. There is more to it than simply their ages. If you think of Angel season 1 and how he looked (not older and heavier as David aged), then a match even with Dawnie doesn't look bad at all. However, Dawn is still acting 'little girl' and Angel is so not her type that "yech" - they are not a goodsome pair.
Buffy and Angel - they had chemistry - and the whole doomed to never be happy vibe going for them.
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Post by CowboyGuy on Jan 30, 2008 17:40:43 GMT -5
I voted no, cause I don't think that he was perving.
But LMFAO @ "To Catch a Predator"!!! That show is nasty!! The man are grosssssssssss.
But I do agree that he is very stalker ish. He was always openly portrayed that way, so I'm not shocked and it isn't news to me. I always thought it was kinda creepy, in a hot way hahaha.
Actually both Spike and Angel were very creepy when it came to Buffy!
But I do see your point, when I first was watching I used to think, "But she's barely 16!". But he's a vampire, it's pervy no matter how old she would be. But since he's undead I don't think it counts anymore.
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Post by sagewoman on Jan 30, 2008 17:44:11 GMT -5
Hey - Vampires - they're supposed to be walking on the dark side.
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Post by CowboyGuy on Jan 30, 2008 21:45:27 GMT -5
Well no. But he's a vampire. Plus are we certain he loved her in that kind of way from the moment he saw her?
Hmm...maybe.
Anyway, what's done is done. Vampires of the world, beware! "To Catch a Predator" is on to you!!
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BuffyFanOne
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Post by BuffyFanOne on Jan 30, 2008 22:04:24 GMT -5
Was Romeo a perv? He was meant to be in his mid 30's while Juliet was only 14. And that is universally regarded as the greatest love story ever written.
I know, that was a different time and Buffy is a modern story but the message is the same. Love is love. Plus, Angel was what, 20 when he was sired. Buffy was 15 when they met. 5 years is not that huge of a difference. It seems very odd when you say 15 and 20 but what about 17 and 22. That does not seem odd to me.
PS: Cheers. This is a fun topic. It is hard to come up with a truly original topic about a show that has been off the air for 4 years! Sure you can make an "original" topic about something like your interpretations of the love connection between Dawn and Clem...but it is rare to come across an original and discuss-able new topic!
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Post by sagewoman on Jan 30, 2008 23:39:01 GMT -5
Yeah but he had a soul. He was the real Angel, not a demon. I mean the concrete fact is he was in love with an underage girl, and liked Buffy from the moment he saw her (when she was 14/15). But according to the logic of some people in this thread lol...if a grown man and a 15 year old girl have "chemistry", it's okay? Hahaha...NO! lol Okay - now who is being persnickety.... In this case, being the slayer with a life expectancy of not reaching 20 years old - then a little fast-tracking on the dating side doesn't seem to be so bad. It does seem sad that she is old enough to battle demons, carry the world on her shoulders, too young to drink or drive a car and on top of it all not allowed to kiss? And, he's a vampire with a soul. At least he treated her with more regard than many boys her own age. In real life - I would definitely have an issue if it was my 15 year old and a 20 year old. But then, everyone's story is their own.
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Post by henzINNIT on Jan 31, 2008 5:57:03 GMT -5
The Romeo and Juliet comparison is a poor choice. It's way too out of date to be used in this matter. Fact is it wasn't illegal back than and guys had more power over women. (Although it does bring up some interesting ideas about Angel's possible old fashioned view of relationships ha)
The way I view it, Angel wasn't such a perv. I don't think he ever tried to pull her early on. He may have loved her from the moment he saw her but he didn't pursue it. All he kinew was that she was special and he had to do something to make her life easier. Their relationship just happened because it was ment to be.
Again, on paper, Angel's a bit froofy.
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BuffyFanOne
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Post by BuffyFanOne on Jan 31, 2008 7:05:29 GMT -5
I actually think it is a perfect comparison. We have these two characters from totallt oposite walks of life. Thay should be at war with eachotehr but instead they are in love. The beauty of Romeo and Juliet is that the story in never out of date. Sure the language has changed with the times but the story is timeless.
There is no way that Joss didn't have Romeo and Juliet in mind when he created the dynamic of these two characters.
Also, we have to keep in mind that when Angel was sired, men married younger women.
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Ethros
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Post by Ethros on Jan 31, 2008 7:56:41 GMT -5
For the record, Liam/Angel was 26 when he was sired. And Buffy was 15 when she was called. Dawn was 15 in Season 6, and the same as Buffy in Season 1 in Season 7 I voted no, because I wouldn't blame him either way
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patxshand
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Post by patxshand on Jan 31, 2008 13:03:00 GMT -5
No, because--not only for this reason--the 'rules' concerning age and relationships were very different when Angel was a man. Also, along with his human-ness (humanity has too many connotations to use), the 'rules of the world' are tossed out. Rightfully so.
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Post by henzINNIT on Jan 31, 2008 15:35:14 GMT -5
I actually think it is a perfect comparison. We have these two characters from totallt oposite walks of life. Thay should be at war with eachotehr but instead they are in love. The beauty of Romeo and Juliet is that the story in never out of date. Sure the language has changed with the times but the story is timeless. This is all missing the point that back when R+J was set, there was nothing wrong with the age difference like there is today. That's why it's a poor comparison. You ask was Romeo a pervert... well in this day and age... the answer is a definate YES.
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Post by chosenone87 on Jan 31, 2008 21:36:52 GMT -5
Got to say No. There is more to it than simply their ages. If you think of Angel season 1 and how he looked (not older and heavier as David aged), then a match even with Dawnie doesn't look bad at all. However, Dawn is still acting 'little girl' and Angel is so not her type that "yech" - they are not a goodsome pair. Buffy and Angel - they had chemistry - and the whole doomed to never be happy vibe going for them. I agree. It never felt perverted to me because Buffy was the slayer- therefore she was a lot more mature for her age than Dawn was. She had seen a lot of the ugly stuff, and it was kinda poetic that from the big bad stuff came something pure- Angel. Also, David did look a lot younger at the beggining of the show. obviously age does help lol but he was a lot scrawnier and hesitant, which made him seem younger. PLUS, if you think about it, Angel never bugged Buffy for sex or forced her into anything. Most guys over 15 would be a lot more perverted. AND the fact that Angel was around 20 when he was made a vampire means there is around 4 years between them because he stopped ageing. Given buffy's maturity, this gap doesnt seem so huge.
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Post by sagewoman on Jan 31, 2008 23:44:43 GMT -5
Two thoughts: 1 - The legal ramifications: I checked the age of consent laws - in California (where it all happened) is 18 so Angel would be guilty of a misdemeanor or a felony (not more than one year in jail depending on which they charged him with). BTW - The age of consent in Canada is 14 years old - but is before the Supreme Court to increase it to 16. Both countries have more technicalities and other stuff but this is the most pertinent to our thread.
2 - I also checked a teen advice website which cautions teens to be aware of the "life experience" differences between a teen and an adult (over 21) as that is more important to consider than a simple "age gap".
Both points, I think, support Mikey's argument. However, I still love a gothic romance and Buffy and Angel are modern examples of it. And, keep in mind it is fiction - not real life. We can romanticize it and approve of it in the story - but doesn't mean we would play it out in real life.
Given all that...if I met Angel when I was 17 (first season Angel) I would have followed in Buffy's footsteps in a heartbeat (pun wasn't intended, but is a good one).
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Post by SlayerLV on Feb 1, 2008 1:28:52 GMT -5
I don't think Angel is a pervert. A stalker? yes
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Post by MawdurnBukanier on Feb 1, 2008 1:52:30 GMT -5
I voted no on Angel being a pervert. If the poll was asking if he were a felon then it would be a simple question, but to me being perverse carries more weight than just being into a younger person. I don't think Angel was ever into Buffy in a creepy way based on the fact that she looked like a little, innocent girl, Angel loved Buffy for the person that she was and could become. Love is not about age and I don't think Angel ever tried to take advantage of Buffy or offered to buy her beer to get her drunk. So to sum it up, I think Angel's a stalker and a felon, but not a pervert.
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Post by henzINNIT on Feb 1, 2008 5:53:15 GMT -5
And I don't understand why people keep calling Angel 20. Just because he didn't physically age doesn't mean he didn't mentally become an adult man. Angel isn't 20. There's no evidence in the show (except for unavoidable aging) to support that he isn't just a well experienced 20 year old man to me. Besides, maturity levels? Physically he's a 20 year old man, so he's a 20 year old man with a 200 year old's maturity? He's still a 20 year old man and thats what the law would go by. I always thought an interesting thing would be thinking how long the teen vampires from "All the Way" actually were vampires. They could be fresh out the box, but who's to say they wouldn't be doing the same routine in 20 years time. I found them to be a very interesting comparison to Spike in season 6, but more about that some day when it's on topic. I think Angel's view on age would have been radically altered because of his circumstances. I couldn't imagine what that long a life would do to your thoughts. The wierdness is - in a relationship - although Angel would start out older, Buffy would soon overtake him and he'd become a toy boy lol.
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BuffyFanOne
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Post by BuffyFanOne on Feb 1, 2008 12:26:14 GMT -5
I actually think it is a perfect comparison. We have these two characters from totallt oposite walks of life. Thay should be at war with eachotehr but instead they are in love. The beauty of Romeo and Juliet is that the story in never out of date. Sure the language has changed with the times but the story is timeless. This is all missing the point that back when R+J was set, there was nothing wrong with the age difference like there is today. That's why it's a poor comparison. You ask was Romeo a pervert... well in this day and age... the answer is a definate YES. This is exactly what I was going to say. I still love a gothic romance and Buffy and Angel are modern examples of it. And, keep in mind it is fiction - not real life. We can romanticize it and approve of it in the story - but doesn't mean we would play it out in real life. This is fiction and so it the Romeo and Juliet story. It will always be a timeless work of fiction that is just as beautiful today as it was yesterday, imo.
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Post by sagewoman on Feb 1, 2008 15:52:38 GMT -5
Well let's ask it this way, are there any 20-somethings in here who would date a 15 year old? *eyes everybody, looking them up and down* LOL Okay - what is said on the forum stays on the forum. - Agreed? First of all do you want to hear about my perspective as a 17 year old (really close to 18) who dated a 21 year old? This was awhile ago.
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Post by henzINNIT on Feb 1, 2008 17:09:01 GMT -5
I don't think you understand immortality. Just because your body doesn't age doesn't mean your mind doesn't. Angel isn't perpetually 20 years old. And even if Angel wasn't a vampire, and he was just a 20 year old, a 20 year old obsessing over a 15 year old is f*ckin' gross dude! Clearly I don't. I've seen every episodes dozen's of times and I never saw anything to support your argument though. Well let's ask it this way, are there any 20-somethings in here who would date a 15 year old? *eyes everybody, looking them up and down* LOL A friend of my mrs is a 17 year old girl in a serious relationship with a 27 year old guy, and they've been together for over a year. He's a nice guy, so although not here exactly there are people who would.
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