El Diablo Robotico
Ensouled Vampire
Robo Pimp-Daddy
"Surely you have heard about our great victory over the Devil's Robot."[Mo0:3]
Posts: 1,199
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Post by El Diablo Robotico on Jun 22, 2008 0:37:33 GMT -5
mikey, I don't think it's the Immortal any more than you do, but could you maybe refrain from acting like the people who are willing at least consider the idea are complete idiots? Especially when there's been some good evidence given in this very thread to point out that there is a case to be made for the idea, however far-fetched you or I might think it is...
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Post by Skytteflickan88 on Jun 22, 2008 0:41:48 GMT -5
I don't know if you intended to Mikey, but your last post made me believe more that it's the Immortal.
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Post by Emmie on Jun 22, 2008 5:44:05 GMT -5
Of all the suspects, at least the Immortal has specific relevance to season 8. (god does he have a name, it's annoying having to type the "the" title)
Looking at what we know of Twilight, again I say that the best way to describe him is as a "manipulator" maneuvering his pawns on his chessboard. As Twilight's manipulations have all been successful so far as we know, who has the potential and history to be such an adroit manipulator without fail?
All the other popular contenders stretch the imagination:
1. Riley hasn't been seen since As You Were in the middle of season 6. His reappearance requires a lot of backstory to understand his motivation for assuming the Twilight mantle. The possibility of his wife, Sam, becoming a Slayer and dying has been suggested as a reason for him to want magic and the slayer line to end. Plus his connection to the military and his fitting the aesthetics of what we know Twilight to look like. Judgment as a manipulator: better at taking/giving orders straightforwardly than manipulating, unless the subversive Machiaviellian reading of As You Were is to be taken into account. But still no real previous evidence of him resorting to manipulating others in a complex manner.
2. Giles is mostly a target because of his current alienation from Buffy and his seeming closeness to Faith. He's seen as a possible contender for the "closest, most unexpected" betrayal, but really it's hard to justify Giles throwing aside his conscience and so cavalierly (and dangerously, Gigi could've killed Buffy!) endangering his slayer. Plus of all the other potential Twilights, Giles is the most aware of the good that can be found in magic. I don't see Giles wanting to end magic, but rather to use magic responsibly. He sees it as powerful and meant to be utilized with respect. Judgment as a manipulator: has the intellect and skill to manipulate, but is hindered by his personal ties and moral conscience. No evidence of him callously and detachedly manipulating those he loved like Buffy and the Scoobies. Whatever questionable behavior he enacts is done to protect the innocent and loved ones.
3. Ethan. As a potential favorite contender of mine in the past, I have trouble reconciling Ethan to any role other than the comedic 'villainous' relief. He's the Buffyverse example of an egotistical villain too incompetent to know how to achieve victory. This doesn't jive with Twilight's adroit manipulation of the military, the mole inside Slayer HQ and Buffy. My past theory that Ethan faked his own death seems a bit extreme to justify his being Twilight. Again, the emotional pay-off from Ethan being Twilight would only deeply affect Giles. And as a die-hard wizard, he should be against the end of magic, not trying to bring it forth. Judgment as a manipulator: successful at initially manipulating his targets and uninhibited by a conscience, but fails in the follow-through due to hubris and cowardice. No history of successfully manipulating the protagonists of the Buffyverse.
4. Future Xander. As time-travel is being introduced in Fray, the idea has been tossed around that a futuristic version of one of Buffy's friends has traveled back to convince Buffy of the error of her ways. We can already see Xander is heading down a dark path and his betrayal would absolutely be the "closest, the most unexpected" as he's always, always stood by Buffy. But the whole idea is very far-fetched and almost too heart-breaking to consider that Xander could become this detached being who plays people like pawns on a chessboard. Judgment as a manipulator: based on character, Xander is too honest, impatient and prone to rubbing one's mistakes in his/her face to successfully manipulate anyone. Long-term planning of the complexity and delicacy required for Twilight's actions doesn't match Xander's character or intellectual inclinations. If he wanted to protest Buffy's actions, he'd confront her face-on.
5. Caleb. He's a hack option imo, only offered because he knew the scythe bisection move Buffy tried to use on Twilight in A Beautiful Sunset. There's no emotional pay-off from bringing him back. He's best left dead and buried. But then I would have said the same thing about Warren, so who knows. Judgment as a manipulator: Very successful at manipulating those who see his authority as a spiritual leader. Take away this costume however and I don't see the US military taking him seriously. As an agent of the First, the final goal of ending magic doesn't jive with the First's interests.
The other popular theories were Harth, Angel & Spike. Setting up Angel or Spike as the villainous Twilight seems too deja vu, been there and done that. As for Harth, he seems very enamored of magic so I don't seem him wanting to end magic and banish his own kind from the world - unless he saw it as a necessary step to insure his own future timeline. These three seem too far-fetched as potential Twilights to be taken seriously.
And finally The Immortal. A charismatic, centuries old immortal being who inspires a sycophantic following, who may or may not be evil, thinks magic is "dirty", is dating the faux RomoBuffy and has interacted with Andrew personally (the best potential candidate for the mole imo). No one else fits Twilight as closely in their present incarnation as the Immortal - he's a leader, detached morally, powerful, connected to the Slayers, knowledgable and intelligent. What's more, the air of mystery surrounding the Immortal matches the mystery surrounding Twilight. Judgment as a manipulator: Very adept. The Girl in Question exemplifies the Immortals ability to make a mockery of Angel & Spike, who aren't immune to manipulation but are by no means stupid. This episode is a lesson for those aspiring to fine-tuned manipulation.
Wouldn't it be ironic that in the third page of the first issue of Season 8, the Immortal is retconned into a comic relief/cover story only to have him actually be the Big Bad of the season? Talk about underestimating someone.
As for the mask reveal signifying that we would recognize Twilight's face, the Immortal could simply be using this disguise because he would be easily recognized by Team Slayer. He's a part of their faux-Romo Buffy alias. Ding dong, we've got a double-agent in the house. They would easily recognize him, hence the need for a disguise. I've also considered the fact that his outfit/gear may convey power. The mask-reveal leads to the assumption that we know Twilight, but it's an insubstantiated assumption. Don't make an "ass" out of "u" and "me".
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Slayer489
Wise-cracking Techno Genius
"Why do I feel like this? Why do I let Spike do those things to me?" - Buffy 'Dead Things'[Mo0:0]
Posts: 784
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Post by Slayer489 on Jun 22, 2008 7:24:40 GMT -5
This never occured to me before but it's a brilliant theory. Then again, Mikey's right that he wears a mask so it's probably someone we know. I still think Mr Maclay somehow. Sorry, but if Twilight is Mr. Maclay, I'll stop reading the comics. I don't even remember what he looks like. I doubt Joss wold bring him back, especially as the big bad. I'm sure that lots of Buffy fans remember what Tara's dad looks like. I know I do. And there are a lot of connections that could be made with him. He hates magic, in fact his last line in 'Family' is "Magic..." indicating that he hates it completely. He might attack Buffy and the army because Tara wouldn't come home with him, which caused his daughter to die. Even though they had no relationship whatsoever after 'Family', he said he loved her (in a twisted way) so that could be his motive. And the heavy focus on Willow and Saga Vasuki could have something to do with it.
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Post by KingofCretins on Jun 22, 2008 11:07:13 GMT -5
Mikey, the most coherent idea anybody's come up with and argued in support of so far is Riley, and don't you sorta crap all over that one, too? Off Emmie's list, the only two I would scratch are "Future Xander" and Caleb. Caleb was bisected and then buried under 40 billion tons of earth, steel, and concrete, and we're obliged to leave him there unless we have some empirical evidence. The single reference to a fight he took part in is not enough to presume he's back from the dead, IMO. "Future Xander" relies on several inferences and presumptions that my textualist sensabilities can't buy into yet. The only thing at all on this is the time travel angle coming up, but we have nothing to suggest Xander will be personally involved in it. Besides which, "Future Xander" would have to have initiated time travel on his own, and from a different point in the time line, to carry this out. Riley, Giles, Ethan (who I think we could at least guess might have faked his death, since we saw him dead, not killed), and the Immortal are all reasonably in play. I won't even rule out a human Angel, for one clear reason -- I'm not entirely convinced that, the history of the Buffyverse being what it is (by which I mean "Fray"), that Buffy and Twilight won't be on the same side by the time the season is wrapping up. It would put enough of a twist on Angel as a "bad guy" that it wouldn't be repetitive.
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kimtaro
Ensouled Vampire
Everybody's Buttmonkey
Crime tastes funny[Mo0:10]
Posts: 1,087
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Post by kimtaro on Jun 22, 2008 11:46:21 GMT -5
I think the Immortal is a pretty good idea...I actually agree with wenxina that the lifting of the mask is sort of a "fake out" to make us think that it is someone we know. I would actually prefer that it NOT be someone we know. New villain, please! Anyway, I think Riley is the DUMBEST idea EVER. If Riley was Twilight...*shudder* Why would he want to destroy magic/hurt Buffy? I feel that they made their peace in "As You Were." Also, Giles NO, Ethan NO, future Xander DOUBLE NO, Caleb NO, Harth/Angel/Spike SEXTUPLE NO lol These are just my opinions. I still think it could be Warren with regenerative skin qualities
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El Diablo Robotico
Ensouled Vampire
Robo Pimp-Daddy
"Surely you have heard about our great victory over the Devil's Robot."[Mo0:3]
Posts: 1,199
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Post by El Diablo Robotico on Jun 22, 2008 12:02:52 GMT -5
mikey, I don't think it's the Immortal any more than you do, but could you maybe refrain from acting like the people who are willing at least consider the idea are complete idiots? Especially when there's been some good evidence given in this very thread to point out that there is a case to be made for the idea, however far-fetched you or I might think it is... No. For the very reason that Twilight wears a mask. That means absolutely without a doubt it's someone who's face we're not allowed to see yet. It's a dramatic ploy. So for that reason alone it's not only unlikely that it's Twilight, but it's impossible. Have fun with the fan fiction though, people. The Immortal wasn't a fleshed out character. He was obviously made just for that episode, they didn't go anywhere with him in either series. We don't know anything about him other than he's immortal, he's a vampire, and he dated a Buffy-look-a-like. Buffy doesn't even know him! If he was going to appear in one of the comics, he'd be more applicable on Angel! You know, because characters there actually know who he is. The Immortal and the "Buffy is going to betray herself" are two of the biggest cop out ideas I've ever heard fans of any show come up with, lol. Come on people, we can brainstorm harder than that. Looks like some of us are having trouble with our reading comprehension here. I began and ended the post by saying that I agree with you that it's not the Immortal. You quote my post and then give a lecture on why it can't be him. What I did ask was that you maybe show a little respect to the people who are at least willing to entertain the idea that it could be him. You've now gone on to describe those people as "stoned". I'm not really sure why I bothered, because this kind of thing is pretty much par for the course with you. Good job, man. Way to win friends and influence people.
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BenTaylor3907
Wise-cracking Sidekick
Illyria's Qwa'ha Xahn
~ Listening To Fear ~[Mo0:25]
Posts: 2,958
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Post by BenTaylor3907 on Jun 22, 2008 15:09:29 GMT -5
We don't know anything about him other than he's immortal, he's a vampire, and he dated a Buffy-look-a-like. He's a vampire? Seriously? Was it stated in TGIQ?
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balesthebloody
Wise-cracking Techno Genius
"Angel's gettin' some! Good on you mate!"[Mo0:0]
Posts: 733
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Post by balesthebloody on Jun 22, 2008 15:17:13 GMT -5
I don't remember it being said that he was a vampire.
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Slayer489
Wise-cracking Techno Genius
"Why do I feel like this? Why do I let Spike do those things to me?" - Buffy 'Dead Things'[Mo0:0]
Posts: 784
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Post by Slayer489 on Jun 22, 2008 15:18:12 GMT -5
Yeah it was never stated that The Immortal is a vampire.
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Smashed
Junior Vampire Slayer
[Mo0:3]
Posts: 908
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Post by Smashed on Jun 22, 2008 15:25:35 GMT -5
Sorry, but if Twilight is Mr. Maclay, I'll stop reading the comics. I don't even remember what he looks like. I doubt Joss wold bring him back, especially as the big bad. I'm sure that lots of Buffy fans remember what Tara's dad looks like. I know I do. And there are a lot of connections that could be made with him. He hates magic, in fact his last line in 'Family' is "Magic..." indicating that he hates it completely. He might attack Buffy and the army because Tara wouldn't come home with him, which caused his daughter to die. Even though they had no relationship whatsoever after 'Family', he said he loved her (in a twisted way) so that could be his motive. And the heavy focus on Willow and Saga Vasuki could have something to do with it. You can makle connections with anyone if you fanwank enough. In all seriousness, I LOL'd at the thought of Tara's dad when I first read it. The point is, if it is Tara's dad, I don't think a lot of fans WON'T care, and will think it's stupid. He doesn't even have a name. I don't know, I'm not going to argue with you, I just think thats there's no way in hell Joss would bring Taras back back.
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Post by Skytteflickan88 on Jun 22, 2008 15:35:32 GMT -5
He might be a vampire.
"WILLIAM: We're immortal.
DARLA: Not like him. I mean, he's not some common vampire. He's?I don't know what he is. A giant. A titan straddling good and evil, serving no master but his own... *considerable* desires."
That could mean that he's not a common creature, like vampires are, or it could mean that he's a vampire, but not an ordinary one.
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Post by KingofCretins on Jun 22, 2008 15:38:35 GMT -5
I parse this against interpreting him as being a vampire at all. Darla seems to be treating the Immortal's brand of immortality as grander in some sense than a vampire's.
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Post by Skytteflickan88 on Jun 22, 2008 16:10:22 GMT -5
It can't be ruled out. I wouldn't bet a lot of money on it, but why say NAY when PERHAPS is better?
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El Diablo Robotico
Ensouled Vampire
Robo Pimp-Daddy
"Surely you have heard about our great victory over the Devil's Robot."[Mo0:3]
Posts: 1,199
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Post by El Diablo Robotico on Jun 22, 2008 16:23:35 GMT -5
Hey Diablo, there's no need to talk down to me like that. You're reading too much into my jokes and you're overreacting. And this isn't a popularity contest, it's a public forum. I don't make posts to make friends and influence people. I make posts to voice my opinion on the subject matter. It's called being honest. And by the way, I'm very good at reading comprehension. If you actually read my post you'd see I was answering your question. "No". And then I explained why. "Answering my question?" Then no, maybe your reading comprehension isn't as good as you think, because I didn't ask a question!! I simply agreed with your viewpoint, and then asked you to try to be a little more respectful of those who happened to have a different one. Because a few members who I think are pretty darn smart and insightful have weighed in and said that they think there's at least some merit to this particular idea, and I didn't appreciate seeing their opinion called, in essence, stupid. But I guess I didn't realize suggesting someone was on drugs for thinking something was actually a funny joke. My mistake, then. Ha-ha, good one. "lmao", and all that...
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Smashed
Junior Vampire Slayer
[Mo0:3]
Posts: 908
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Post by Smashed on Jun 22, 2008 17:03:56 GMT -5
It can't be ruled out. I wouldn't bet a lot of money on it, but why say NAY when PERHAPS is better? Karma for you. Let's all be friends!
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balesthebloody
Wise-cracking Techno Genius
"Angel's gettin' some! Good on you mate!"[Mo0:0]
Posts: 733
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Post by balesthebloody on Jun 22, 2008 17:55:24 GMT -5
How about this, until we know for sure Twilight is and even after, lets not reduce ourselves to name calling and idea bashing. Everyone has looked at the clues given to us about who Twilight might be and made their guess. They have their reasons for choosing who they did. Can't we at least respect each others choices?
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Post by Skytteflickan88 on Jun 22, 2008 18:21:55 GMT -5
It can't be ruled out. I wouldn't bet a lot of money on it, but why say NAY when PERHAPS is better? Karma for you. Let's all be friends! Aw, cutie. *pinching cheek and blessing*
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El Diablo Robotico
Ensouled Vampire
Robo Pimp-Daddy
"Surely you have heard about our great victory over the Devil's Robot."[Mo0:3]
Posts: 1,199
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Post by El Diablo Robotico on Jun 22, 2008 22:08:05 GMT -5
"Answering my question?" Then no, maybe your reading comprehension isn't as good as you think, because I didn't ask a question!! I simply agreed with your viewpoint... mikey, I don't think it's the Immortal any more than you do, but could you maybe refrain from acting like the people who are willing at least consider the idea are complete idiots? ...... ........... ............... Okay, I see. My question was asking you if you could find a way of being more respectful of people with different viewpoints than yours, instead of just treating them like they're stupid and not even worth talking about, and your answer was "no." Fantastic. In the four months I've been coming here regularly, I've seen lots of theories about S8 and AtF that I thought were both stupid and ridiculous, but I've always tried to have enough tact and class to not respond to them like they're morons who are just wasting our time. Like you said, it's a public forum, and we're all here to share our ideas and see what everyone else has to say. And if enough people start getting their ideas constantly cr*pped on, ridiculed, and made to feel bad about even opening their mouths, then the conversation around here will dry right up. Which might suit certain members just fine, because then they'd have much less competition for their ideas, which, of course, are always the correct ones...
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Post by Skytteflickan88 on Jun 22, 2008 23:18:38 GMT -5
Mikey, when you're asking if people are stoned, then you're not critizising their ideas, you're critizising them as people.
For you it might not seem that way, but for us, it does. We're obviously not as "tough" as you, and I think most of us would appreciate if you'd tone down your attitude a bit.
I've learned to read your comments with this thought in mind; "He thinks he's just being funny, he doesn't mean to sound mean", but not all of us do that.
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