cutiepatootie
Common Vampire
lay waste to the world, and everything in it[Mo0:0]
Posts: 87
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Post by cutiepatootie on Apr 18, 2010 13:05:01 GMT -5
Hmm, nice argument there Paul but I'm still in the Andrew-is-a-stereotype camp. Oh aha, pun. Sweet.
I just don't think Andrew would be as productive for the taking down of stereotypes as say, Willow and Tara did for lesbianism. And after all, that's a main aspect of Buffy The Vampire Slayer; a tiny blonde running away from a monster, then turns around and kicks it's ass.
Also, I'm with Henz, I appreciate Andrew as a character but he's still pretty boring to me, and kinda annoying.
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Post by wenxina on Apr 18, 2010 13:17:48 GMT -5
There are actually plenty of people out there who actually think that Willow and Tara were a lesbian stereotype. Both were attractive, and both very feminine. While they subverted the stereotype that all lesbians are butch (and there is a fair percentage of lesbians who do have mullets, wear flannel and fanny packs, and ride Harleys), they were pretty much the embodiment of many teenage fantasies (usually borne of the imagination of horny teenage boys).
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Post by henzINNIT on Apr 18, 2010 14:04:36 GMT -5
They're pretty Hollywood for lesbians for sure. The issues around gay women on television are completely different to their male counterparts really, there's nowhere near as much opposition to some woman on woman as long as they're hot. Willow gets away there too.
Seems to be a much harder task to put a hot and desirable guy out there. Andrew would be another comedy camp guy to add to the list.
Make Wood bi-sexual, *shrugs* I could buy that, and it's a start.
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Post by wenxina on Apr 18, 2010 14:18:26 GMT -5
I don't think Andrew is self-conscious enough to even be considered in the closet. He is, a modern day Candide of sorts... just kinda silly, naive, and really not cognizant of his sexuality at all (whichever way it may swing). Which is quite a welcome change, since the rest of the Scoobies sometimes act like hormonal ping pong balls.
Homosexual male characters usually fall into a couple of categories. For supporting characters, at least. They're either the love interest of a more prominent character, or they're campier than a girl scout jamboree. The former would be tougher in this case, unless they made Xander or Giles at least bi-curious... which would add fuel to the "Not everyone has to go gay, Joss!" argument. Or if you out Andrew, and have him fall in love with some quiet, reserved, masculine-ish gay guy... well, then you have Andrew who will camp things up, because it'll more than likely become a comedy of errors of sorts. Or, worst case scenario, you have a campy gay Watcher/Wiccan/whatever... which, well then, Ugly Betty anyone?
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cutiepatootie
Common Vampire
lay waste to the world, and everything in it[Mo0:0]
Posts: 87
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Post by cutiepatootie on Apr 18, 2010 14:59:45 GMT -5
Wenxina, karma for "girl scout jamboree" :') The short story for me is, a gay character would be nice, "quiet, reserved, masculine-ish gay guy" is what the comic would need, if the decision was made to create such a character.
However, I'm content with the cast as it is; there's no point in introducing another cool character who won't get enough "screen" time.
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Post by wenxina on Apr 18, 2010 15:09:08 GMT -5
I'm open to Joss and Co. trying their hand at further diversifying the cast of characters, whether with campy not-so-stereotypes, or with quiet, reserved types. It'll all come down to execution, for me personally. I liked Satsu. She was immediately identifiable, she was different, and her sexuality was introduced quite slyly. If the same thing can be done with a gay male character, then sure, do it. But please don't do it merely to further an agenda, or worse still, for shock factor.
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Paul
Ensouled Vampire
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Posts: 1,173
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Post by Paul on Apr 18, 2010 17:33:34 GMT -5
I think it's sad that people only want to see "straight gays" and criticise Andrew for having camp mannerisms. He's not even that camp - people are acting like he's a total flamer and he's not.
Obviously some shows take the stereotype to extremes... Will & Grace, Ugly Betty, Glee (and even then, I enjoy the gay characters in those shows). But Andrew is more original than them so I resent him being dismissed as a stereotype.
Obviously, it's important to break down stereotypes. Andrew Van de Kamp (Desperate Housewives) and Captain Jack Harkness (Doctor Who/Torchwood) are two of my favourite characters because they challenge the usual role of gay people in fiction. But that doesn't mean that straight-acting gays are superior to camp gays.
I have people tell me in real life "Oh, I don't usually like gay people but you don't act like that so you're okay". It's weird, because in some ways I'm proud of myself for subverting their expectations, but I'm still annoyed that they're prejudiced toward camp people.
EDIT: I actually think Larry was a good character for subverting gay stereotypes. The idea of a high school jock who comes out and is totally accepted by his peers (which was the implication in "Earshot") is lovely. It's a shame he died because I always found Larry rather endearing, he could have worked his way up the show Harmony-style.
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Post by wenxina on Apr 18, 2010 18:50:26 GMT -5
I think the point that most people are making is that they're tired of seeing the same gay character pop up from time to time. The character is always campy, lacks any bones in his wrist, and for some inane reason, has an extreme fondness of scarves. That said, I agree that Andrew really isn't that campy, and I actually enjoy that he's a geek first and foremost, and then sexually ambiguous on the side. That said, masculine gay, campy gay... point remains that there's yet to be a positive gay male character on the show... Larry notwithstanding. Bring on the gay, Joss. Gay it up more. Or as Sue Sylvester says... "Swish it up!"
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Billie Erin
Ensouled Vampire
"I go back to December"
"I picked up a hitchhiker. You've got to when you hit them."[Mo0:0]
Posts: 1,536
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Post by Billie Erin on Apr 19, 2010 4:35:55 GMT -5
I agree with Paul that Andrew isn't your stereotype gay guy, he's very academic- not really focused suited to the kind of vocational professions that gay men are often portrayed as being inclined towards (e.g. hairdressing), he's not at all fashion savvy (that cape was just awful) and he loves comic books and sci-fi, whereas gay men are usually stereotyped as being obsessed with "cool" things like designers and hollywood.
I also don't think that Willow and Tara were that stereotypically lesbian, mainly because they didn't hate men which is the lesbian stereotype that annoys me the most. I think that a little camp can be quite fun really as long as its not overplayed so wenxina's right Joss, "swish it up"!
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rogue11
Potential Slayer
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Post by rogue11 on Apr 19, 2010 10:19:17 GMT -5
holla to all the gay comicbook/sci-fi cans out there! lol It sometimes feels like there are gay men out there who try so hard to conform to the unemotional, stoic, aggressive attributes that are commonly associated with those "manly" straight guys out there. Like you see some gay guys and its like they try so hard to be overtly muscular and sometimes very sexual. Like all the guys I've met have only wanted sex whereas I'd like to date and possibly find romance but it seems so hard for that because guys would have to learn to be emotional and sensitives towards another guy, and that can be seen as somewhat campy. This is an on-going issue with gay men i believe. You can either be a flamboyant, cross-dressing, fashion label loving member of the queer eye gang. Or you can be a body-building, unemotional, aggressive, self-loving porn-star-like model. What about all those areas in between? What about all the other ways that a gay man can live his life? Willow and Tara were two university students who fell for each other, it wasn't really like they were two overtly pretty, overtly skinny girly girls. These were two girls you could met everyday who just fell for each other, it wasn't so much a sexual experiment. I dont think we need to see gay men who are really skinny and feminine and i dont think we need to see guys who are real muscular and masculine. What we need to see is everyday guys with a variety of body and personality types that just happen to be gay. Anybody could end up gay in the comics really. Andrew is just the obvious choice and see people always think I'm gay not because they see me making out with guys, but because i dont confrom to their ideas of what a guy my age is supposed to behave like. Sexuality becomes more about gender and what's masculine and feminine and if someone doesn't act their gender properly, then oh they must be gay!
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Post by henzINNIT on Apr 19, 2010 13:51:22 GMT -5
I think it's sad that people only want to see "straight gays" and criticise Andrew for having camp mannerisms. He's not even that camp - people are acting like he's a total flamer and he's not. I know this wasn't directed at me solely, but I feel the need to clarify myself a little on it cause I slipped into this bracket a bit. My problem with Andrew is really that I don't think he's a strong enough character, period, not necessarily that I need a gay character to be a "straighter" one. I've always found Andrew to be a bit too much of a joke to accept him as a regular. I got pretty bored of him in Season 7, he's just so intensely geeky all the time and I feel like the writers don't want to have him grow up because they enjoy writing all of the nerdy rants. His little moment in "Chosen" hinted at that progression, but again the writers can't resist giving him that same material in Season 8 and it spoils things for me.
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Post by buffyfan21 on Apr 19, 2010 19:51:27 GMT -5
I've always found Andrew to be a bit too much of a joke to accept him as a regular. I got pretty bored of him in Season 7, he's just so intensely geeky all the time and I feel like the writers don't want to have him grow up because they enjoy writing all of the nerdy rants. His little moment in "Chosen" hinted at that progression, but again the writers can't resist giving him that same material in Season 8 and it spoils things for me. Actually, I think Andrew has matured quite a bit in season 8. He is still the same geeky, nerdy fanboy we all love (ok, maybe not everyone), but more grown up with more responsibility. Instead of being the annoyance he was in season 7, he is now a contributing member of the group, with a whole charge of slayers under his care. I'd say that Andrew has come a long way from the guy we first met. Not only is he now a contributing member to the group as a whole, but bigger than that he is now someone who can be trusted, and someone who can put the best interests of others above himself. For Andrew that is huge character growth! Being more mature and responsible doesn't mean he has to stop being who he is all together. If that were the case he would be a completely different character. He can still be responsible and be the fun guy that he is. The former doesn't require that he get rid of all that makes him Andrew. At least not to me it doesn't. I dunno, maybe I'm the only one who sees it this way, but I feel that he has grown as a character. As far as his sexuality, gay or straight I really don't care, he is still Andrew regardless. If he outs himself than great! If not, that's okay too.
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Post by henzINNIT on Apr 20, 2010 18:39:47 GMT -5
I see that view, and there's definately some big moments of maturity in Season 8, sadly undone for me everytime he reverts to extreme geek (like his antics in #28, or the stupid costume in the current arc).
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Post by wenxina on Apr 20, 2010 18:44:15 GMT -5
We all regress every once in a while. All it takes is a pretty girl in a short skirt to get plenty of guys to regress to their horny adolescent selves. It doesn't discount growth, however. Have you seen people when they're really happy? It's like watching a kid on his 5th birthday.
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rogue11
Potential Slayer
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Posts: 197
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Post by rogue11 on Apr 22, 2010 13:05:43 GMT -5
Can a gay man really go back to finding that girl in the short skirt sexy? even after he is consciously aware that he wants to be with men? I dont really see girls the same as i did when i thought i was straight. Like i still think they can be pretty and beautiful but sexy or hot...not really. In fact i sometimes resent the pretty girls because of how easy it is for them to get the nice guys out there. I just read that Tom Lenk is gay, who played Andrew (yes i do realize that i'm late). We really do need a majr character to realize that he's gay because I know that Joss might show him pursue funny, complicated relationships, and thats the key. i am tired of watching films where the gay guys self destruct. i know that its common and something that a lot of us go through to realize that we are perceived as "deviant" but i'd like to see a show that depicts someone going through a safe and self-respecting journey to accepting his sexuality.
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Post by wenxina on Apr 22, 2010 13:24:50 GMT -5
I wasn't saying that a gay men could go straight because of a short skirt. I was making the point that despite "growing up", many men (I guess I could insert "heterosexual/bisexual/bi-curious/etc" here) regress to being little perves. It was in response to henz's post, not necessarily to the topic at hand.
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rogue11
Potential Slayer
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Post by rogue11 on Apr 22, 2010 22:40:52 GMT -5
Oh alrighty, yeah you have a point there. Everyone's talking about Andrew though. There shouldn't even be one gay guy, there should be mroe and mroe lesbians, and bisexuals and why not transexuals or tranvestites, there's so many forms of sexual identities out there. We need more lgbt characters in tv/movies until being gay is seen as just as normal as being straight. We need to have more and more gay characters until the guy in high school isn't afraid to come out you know. I dont know i feel like Giles could be not-so-straight and they always hint at male vampires hooking up with each other, lets see some Angel and Spike. Or you know what they could have done with the military-like guys in the inititiave, just saying lol....
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