Season 8 - Predators and Prey: Issue 23

[patxshand]

Still, scene doesn't feel right. Too much a direct parallel of the Angel scene to not be on purpose, and not enough follow-through on what that sort of behavior means for Buffy as a character.

About the Ms. and Mr. thing... You're not the only one. I don't mind it at all, but you know who does? Willow. I think it's a great touch that the characters are uncomfortable with it, and the people addressing them so formally are equally uncomfortable with the suggestion to address them informally.

[AndrewCrossett]

I really liked the Andrew character development in this issue. I guess he's officially off my "Twilight suspect" list. (Unless his smile at the end was of the "ha ha, the fool, I've earned her trust" variety.)

But Buffy's tactical judgment in this issue was... perhaps not so much.

For one thing, why did she leave Willow at home? Will could have subdued the demon, Simone and all her girls with one or two spells. I know they don't want to use her as a deus ex machina, but it's just a little implausible when they leave such a powerful weapon on the shelf.

And due to this lack of firepower they've left an enemy still standing who is now out for revenge, and who is really doing a lot to help the anti-Slayer sentiment, and who is still there oppressing those people and keeping them from their homes, and who may now once again have a Ragna demon in their possession if they subdued it again rather than killing it. (BTW, doesn't Italy have a police force or a military?)

So yeah... Buffster needs to review some of her recent tactical decisions. This was not a threat that needed to be left unsolved.

Still, a fun issue.

[Wyndam]

This was a pretty good issue, definitely the best in the arc so far. It was nice to see Buffy for more than a brief cameo, and Andrew was a lot of fun in this issue. The conflict with Simone was great, and I really liked that the resolution wasn't cut and dry. We don't know what happened to Simone and her crew, and she still gets to keep her island, I loved that.

Andrew's development in this was really nice, and I liked the "twist" that he had gone behind Buffy's back to try and fix the situation himself. Buffy's reaction definitely reminded me of what happened between her and Giles, but I was slightly disappointed in that Andrew was given a past when Buffy and Giles haven't spoken since #9. I guess that has to do with Faith's involvement, and Buffy nearly getting killed, but the entire situation just reminded me that I want Giles back in Buffy's life, pronto.

Overall, this was a solid issue, with a great story and some really nice development. I have been waiting for #24 for a long time now, so I am glad this issue has come, and I can really start getting excited about Giles and Faith.

[BlueJay]

I absolutely hate Andrew. So will I hate this comic?

[patxshand]

Why oh why do you hate Andrew?

[underworld]

Is no one else getting frustrated at the lack of real meaty story development in S8? There have been lots of nice quirky side stories, but I'm about to start screaming "Cut to the chase!!!!!" Unfortunately I found this issue to be another cul-de-sac. Oh well. I'll wait for next month with my fingers crossed.

[barryshaft]

I really liked this issue. I've really enjoyed this arc a lot more than Time of Your Life, aside from the absolutely atrocious #21 which I feel was the weakest moment of the series. It finally felt like watching an episode of the series again, though I actually felt that about last month's as well. The dialogue in this issue was what did it for me, a simple story of how Buffy and Andrew's relationship has evolved over the years told mostly through banter.

Andrew is possibly my least favourite character of the series so going in I wasn't necessarily thrilled with this issue. His integration into the gang pissed me off to no end basically because he was a one note character. With Storyteller, they attempted to tell an Andrew-centric story to make audiences finally feel for the character. I did not. His "redemption" at the end of the episode was forced and only later in the season do we see any real remorse for the murder he committed. But with Season 8 I've slowly been coming around to him. With this issue, I'm on board. This was the right type of redemption for Andrew to make, not forced crying because Buffy was threatening to kill him. I think he's earned his position with the gang now, though I wish there was a bit more of the gang featured in this season. We're really going to need some substantial contributions from Willow and Xander soon. I mean, it's been nearly a year since Renee died (obviously only a few months in the timeline) and we haven't really had a single scene devoted to further developing his character or even checking in with his current emotional state. Willow had some solid development in Time of Your Life so I guess a little more time could pass before it gets really outrageous. That said I'm very excited for next month's Faith and Giles extravaganza.

As for pat's issue with the ending, I didn't really find anything amiss with it. All Buffy did was let the Spider out. Against 17 very well trained Slayers (as Simone and her gang have been said to be) Buffy clearly didn't think there was going to be much of a danger to them (she states as much in the last scene). It was nothing but a diversion to aid their escape. Added to that, Simone already took out the demon with her special gun thingy before, I don't see what would stop her from doing it again. Clearly we will see Simone again this season. I would have felt completely different if Buffy had to kill Simone by the end of this issue. But ultimately this felt like the right move for her to make in the situation. She needed the demon to be dead and she needed to escape, two stones. It was definitely a bit darker than we're used to seeing Buffy, but Buffy herself is a lot darker this season than she's ever been before so I sort of took it in stride. Leaving Simone's island was a nice touch, it'll be interesting to revisit that later.

All in all, a solid 9 out of 10. Probably my favourite issue since... maybe A Beautiful Sunset. Also, the fact that I got every single geek reference that Andrew made scared me a little. I laughed quite hard at his Battlestar Galactica rant.

[buffyfan21]

I love Andrew and enjoyed seeing he and the Buffster spend some quality time together. It's nice to see that Andrew has grown and matured as a person (while still retaining that which makes him who he is), and that he has become an acceptable member of the scooby gang.

[dane5by5]

Regarding the other Slayers/Watchers in the organisation referring to the characters formally, I don't mind it at all. I think it's necessary in this situation, there needs to be a set hierarchy. It's a very serious job Buffy and Xander and Willow to a lesser extent are performing day to day, it's a life and death job for many people. I think Xander's role this season has been very complementary in terms of character development (and sense of style )

I haven't read the issue yet, but I'm glad to hear Simone wasn't killed. There needs to be a Faith/Simone confrontation before she peaces out, it's the perfect combination, thematically and narratively.

Everyone who is saying they want a "meatier" story and more answers, I think you'll need to hold out to Brad Meltzer's arc, which should start late this year, for things to start resonating and "falling into place".

The first four arcs, I feel, have been Joss Whedon beginning to sow the storylines and character arcs, the final four will be the "tide turning" and then the climax and resolution. It's like a four year epic novel.

The final fight needs to be an all out war like in "Chosen" only on a worldwide scale. The set up from "The Long Way Home" with the terrorist accusations would be the realistic and seamless transition to that. There have been too many oportunities and enemies set up and left open, Twilight, the government/general public, Amy & Warren, Simone and the rogue Slayers, Harmony and vampires and demons worldwide and Kumiko (if she survived).

[AndrewCrossett]

Mar 5, 2009 1:56:20 GMT -5 barryshaft said:

I mean, it's been nearly a year since Renee died (obviously only a few months in the timeline) and we haven't really had a single scene devoted to further developing his character or even checking in with his current emotional state.

I think there's a reason for that. He has a lot of unresolved emotional issues, going back to the loss of his eye, Anya's death, his Dracula issues, Renee's death, the missile attack on the castle... He's been holding all of that in, and it's going to have to come out sooner or later. I don't think it's going to be a happy occasion for any of us when it does.

[darthrosenberg9]

Mar 4, 2009 17:13:13 GMT -5 trunkstheslayer said:

Am I the only one disliking the "Mr. Harris, Ms. Rosenberg, Ms. Summers, etc" thing? It just seems so....wrong. I mean, I get it but I'm just kinda shocked the scoobies let it fly and don't cut it off. Course it could be a "well, I guess we're the authorities now. We might as well act the part"....


Anywho, for the issue itself: Decent. Nothing epic or game changing but it was good and fun. Interesting little tidbits and it's nice to see Simone and Buffy interact.
Also, Pat: The Ragna and the slayer never fought. She fell into it's webby trap from what I gathered. Not exactly the same. What I don't understand is what Andrew did to get her out. Is the Ragna a techie demon whose web-trap is undone with a car unlock button?

I like the way they're referred to as "Ms. Summers," "Ms. Rosenberg," and "Mr. Harris" for two reasons. The first reason being that it reminds me of when they were in High school and how often they were referred to by those titles. The second reason is because it parallels Angel Season 5 when everyone but Lorne gets a Mr. or a Ms. attached to their name. Remember all the employees in "Harm's Way"? It just feels right at this point in the characters' lives. I mean, Buffy is a respected leader of thousands of people worldwide. It's probably pretty hard to command respect with a name like Buffy.

And as for the Ragna's web: for some reason I took it to mean that Andrew could recreate the demon but not its webbing ability, so he created a false electrical web for it. I might have made that up, though. I have to read it again.

[Nicholas]

This has got to be one of my favorite issues/episodes this season. It was a WONDERFUL edition to the story and it was a wonderful character development for not only Andrew but for Buffy as well.

Okay, since I already posted my review for the first couple of pages (previews) a few pages back, Ill start after that.

I reread the first pages again, but what immediately made me jump was when we found out that Andrew was the one who created the Ragna demon. I immediately thought that everyones suspicions were correct and Andrew was in fact working for Twilight. This made me so sad, but thankfully that was cleared up immediately. I felt it was very powerful that Andrew told Buffy that he had never felt like he was accepted by anyone and that being part of her team gave him something that he never had and he couldnt lose it. It was very emotional and one of the best Andrew moments ever.

I also felt huge relief when Buffy told him that he's not just part of the team, he is part of the family. It was emotional when she told it to Tara and it was emotional with Andrew as well. I have been waiting for that moment for years and I finally got it!
It lovely to know that no matter what happens, Andrews allegiances will always lay with Buffy and that he has earned her trust.

Simone is a wonderful character but also one that I want to see either Buffy or Faith wipe the floor with, specifically Faith. Simone wants to be badass but clearly doesnt know how to do it as well as Faith does. I loved how Simone wasnt going to fight Buffy at first and had no plan of doing it, stating that she actually respected Buffy and admired her but she was "outdated". Of course we learn mearly seconds later that she clearly does want to fight Buffy and has yearned for it. I like how Buffy says she is more experienced and will kick her ass, while Simone says shes younger and faster, which techincally may be true, but I think this dialogue may say something to us...more than just what they are saying. I think its technically a clue as to how Simone will be defeated in the end, as she is young and thick headed, which was shown only a few minutes later as Andrew's Italy team shows up to outnumber Simones.

Did anyone else imagine Buffy and Simone fighting with the sais as if it were actually live action like in the show? I think that would have been badass.

I felt that stating that if the Slayers began to fight and guns came into play, it would be a bloodbath, so technically Buffy leaving them with the Ragna demon, may not be a bad thing. I dont think it echoes Angel's actions because he was at a loss in his life and wanted to punish helpless humans. Simone and her gang are Slayers so they could clearly take the demon, but Buffy needed the time to get away and think of a clear plan of action. It was very smart.

Now, it was probably just me but when Andrew started talking about Angel and Spike, only to have Buffy pause in her tracks...I freaked out. I was so psyched for the issue and to get to the ending that I misread the dialogue and thought that Andrew had just told Buffy about Spike still being alive. Which, is something I have been waiting for...for a long ass time!

The only two complaints I have for this issue are:

1) How exactly did Simones gang know that Andrew created the demon?

2) Buffy states that she has been best friends with Xander for 8 years, which only adds to the confusing time line of the story.

This issue/episode got a 10/10.

[wenxina]

Pretty sure they were fighting with rapiers, or a sword of sorts, not sais. Sais are like giant dagger things... think Mileena in Mortal Kombat. Or Elektra I guess. But I did visualize the fight between the two in motion, and a big part of that can be attributed to Jeanty's great work on depicting motion so fluidly.

[Paul]

I loved this issue! After two weak issues, this totally redeemed the "Predators and Prey" arc for me. The character interaction between Andrew and Buffy was just so enjoyable and heartwarming, and it's so nice to see Andrew accepted as a full-fledged Scooby Gang. I don't really have a whole lot else to say about it, to be honest. It was just fun fun fun. I wasn't that interested in the whole Simone/giant spider aspect of the story (who cares about plot when the characters are this entertaining?) but it was still really good. At least this time, the villain actually had some kind of significance to the character's story, unlike "Swell". Might give a more detailed review or respond to other comments later, but it's been a long day and I'm tired.

[BlueJay]

Hey can someone tell me which characters (major, minor, and speaking extras) appear in this comic?

[hitnrun017]

Really enjoyed this issue. Not sure if I'd rank it higher than Swell though, I didn't really get into it until Buffy and Andrew arrived at the village. They made a great team and Andrew was developed very nicely. I've been hoping that Andrew would be accepted into the "family" for awhile now and I'm really glad it finally happened. It's another reason to add that Andrew isn't involved with Twilight . Also really loved that there was a lot of Buffy. Nice to see where her head was at, made her likable again and more relatable, especially how things aren't fair.

The scene in the opera house is probably one of my favorites so far. I was torn, at first I actually saw where Simone was coming from, she was making a certain kind of sense. But that changed with the guns and "war". The action was short but sweet and really enjoyed that the main conflict was done with talking. Wasn't sure how to react when Buffy released the Ragna demon, but I really liked that. You're making things worse for yourselves, you're not following the rules and you're going to pay the price. Hopefully it taught Simone a lesson. I was disappointed the storyline with her wasn't resolved though.

Liked how ambiguous the Spike thing was with the pause. Does Buffy know or did she not just realize?

[wenxina]

Review, as copied from my blog:

The skinny: #23... gotta say, not as blown away by it as I had hoped to be. A big part of it is because it kinda suffers from middle-child syndrome. The writing isn't terribly imaginative, nor is it awful. It's just... average. And right now, I'm just really wanting to get to the climax of this pseudo-arc of sorts. And usually, we should be there by now... except for the whole "5-issue arc" deal. Pfft.

Art: Jeanty's work is on par with his previous good work here, no major gripes of any sort. But definitely not of the caliber of "A Beautiful Sunset". That one's hard to top. However, I will note that this issue was pretty heavy on the faraway less distinct style he has with characters. The detail isn't any more lacking than usual, and it works in the medium. I will however note that his landscapes are pretty detailed and well-thought out. He deftly captures the mood of the trashed Italian village, and his little touches like the graffiti are quite inspired. Little thing to note though... a mild inconsistency in the early scene in the control room. Xander is shown to be standing behind Buffy in two panels, and in the next, he's behind Willow. While one could argue that he merely moved, upon closer inspection, Buffy and Willow have switched positions too, swapping sides. It's not a big deal, but it is a minor inconsistency. All is forgiven for his well-executed action sequences though, particularly in the fight between Simone and Buffy. The sense of motion is clean and clear in its intent, and it's quite a joy to watch Buffy in fluid action. My two favorite series of panels are the ones of Buffy swinging on the chandelier, and the two wide panels of Buffy and Simone at a stalemate. The former for its depiction of fluid action, and the latter because of Jeanty's impressive command of camera angles - using the panels to "pan up/down". It's also throwaway symbolism for Buffy having the upper hand, and Simone not being afraid to fight dirty and almost literally hitting below the belt.

Writing: Drew Z. Greenberg does an adequate job of giving Andrew some great moments, but some of Andrew's lines miss the mark and sound rather forced. The nerd babble was hilarious, and the wide breadth of geek trivia that Andrew includes in his ramblings was fitting, but phrases like "Whaaaat uuuuuup!" just veer off-course. He does share some good moments with Buffy, and the dynamic between the two is not as I expected (i.e. geek bonding, Buffy's patience). In fact, their relationship culminates into a rather nicely written climax where Simone offers Buffy the option of walking away with the Ragna demon in exchange for Andrew. Turns out, Simone isn't very fond of her ex-Watcher and wants to hurt him. Buffy refuses on account of not walking away from "[her] people" because it's not "who [she] is".

The Andrew development is actually quite well done. While it may seem that his "I'm just one. The needs of the many outweigh the needs--" speech may seem to recall the old Andrew of "Storyteller", where everything is a canned speech from some piece of pop-culture, his actions at the end speak for themselves: he is truly sorry for the damage that he has done, and wants to make amends. He's not just putting in the hours of compiling data of the Ragna demon because it's his job, he's doing it because he feels sorry. Buffy acknowledgement that Andrew is now part of "the family" pretty much made his day, from the expression on his face in the final panel.

Finally, something that has been picked up on quite often, it seems. While superficially, Buffy abandonment of Simone and her Slayers after freeing the Ragna demon may echo the scene where Angel does nothing to stop Darla and Drusilla from massacring a roomful of Wolfram and Hart associates, I didn't read it as such. For one, it's quite explicit that Simone wants to hurt Andrew. I doubt she would have just let Buffy, Andrew, the Italian squad, as well as the civilians just walk away without some kind of fight. There is nothing to suggest that Simone was backing down; she was outnumbered, but not beaten. The only safe way to ensure a relatively safe retreat was to employ a diversion. Ragna demon = big diversion. Seventeen Slayers (Simone's sixteen plus herself) should be more than able to take on one Shelob-lite. While some girls may get hurt, it's a case of better them than us principle. Simone and Co. have defected from Slayer Inc. In short, they're no longer Buffy's "people". It's been shown time and again that Buffy puts her people over the fate of the others (i.e. trading the box of demon spiders for Willow, at the risk of allowing the Mayor's Ascension, leaving Ben alive when Dawn needed her more). It may not be her only MO, but it is one of them.

All in all, quite entertaining. Definitely better than #21.

[AndrewCrossett]

This was my favorite issue of the arc so far (despite not having Satsu in it )

I liked Andrew's portrayal... his seemingly OOC quips were just a result of time having passed since we last saw him this close-up in season 7. I think he was channeling Neil Patrick Harris's character on "How I Met Your Mother" in there.

It's interesting that of all of Buffy's friends who have outstanding issues with her (and that would be... all of them), Andrew is the only one who was proactive enough to glom onto her, force her into some one-on-one time and in-the-field bonding, and get those issues resolved. Now if only Dawn, Willow, Xander, Giles, Satsu, and Faith would do the same...

I was also very, very happy to see that my minority opinion of Buffy's current moral mindstate is vindicated. This is a woman whose moral compass is still every bit as shiny as it ever was. She'd still rather talk than slay, when she thinks there's still a chance of a peaceful outcome... she's still not even considering endorsing Simone's stance against the "puny humans" despite the knife in the back she's been taking from said humans lately... she's still got the greater good in mind and she's still on mission. She may be Sad Buffy, she may be Overwhelmed Buffy, but the Dark Buffy everyone's been expecting is nowhere to be seen. That's my girl.

That said... the decisions she made after subduing Simone's gang were... ahem... poor ones. She...

A. Left a dangerous enemy at her back,
B. Now with a personal grudge against her,
C. Probably in possession of a Ragna demon which they
D. Have already demonstrated the ability to control, and
E. Plan to breed as a weapon against the puny humans, and she
F. Has left Simone in possession of someone else's home,
G. Passing up a major opportunity to demonstrate that she does not endorse terrorist-like behavior like that, and in fact
H. Creating the impression to outsiders that she does, in fact, endorse it.

"Fine, you can keep the island." Gee, mighty generous of you, Buff.

Somewhere, Twilight is shaking his head in disbelief that Buffy is making this so easy for him.

I don't see this as a moral failing on her part... just more evidence that she honestly doesn't know how to run such a large and unique organization, and it's starting to hurt her. She may not be "outdated," as Simone accused, but she's certainly behind the curve.

If they wanted to avoid an on-the-spot battle (and since when is avoiding battle part of the Slayer creed?), Buffy should have returned to HQ, immediately rounded up about three dozen of her best Slayers, and her best Wiccans with Willow leading them, and been back to that island within 24 hours to nip that mess in the bud before it becomes yet another thing for her and Willow and Xander to helplessly watch the fallout of.

Just sayin'.

And Buffy's comment about having known Xander for "eight years" made me do a headdesk. Can someone tell me what year it is? I'd have been happier if she'd literally said, "I've been hanging out with Xander for eight seasons."

[Paul]

Mar 5, 2009 20:44:34 GMT -5 AndrewCrossett said:

I was also very, very happy to see that my minority opinion of Buffy's current moral mindstate is vindicated. This is a woman whose moral compass is still every bit as shiny as it ever was. She'd still rather talk than slay, when she thinks there's still a chance of a peaceful outcome... she's still not even considering endorsing Simone's stance against the "puny humans" despite the knife in the back she's been taking from said humans lately... she's still got the greater good in mind and she's still on mission. She may be Sad Buffy, she may be Overwhelmed Buffy, but the Dark Buffy everyone's been expecting is nowhere to be seen. That's my girl.

She's not quite "Dark Buffy" but she's definitely "Darker Buffy". This was evident from the very first arc, by her ruthlessness when it came to fighting human, most likely innocent, soldiers. She and Satsu were just slicing through them, and leaving Willow to clean up the mess. At the end of the arc, Buffy shows little concern upon learning she's "at war with the human race". It became obvious in "Anywhere But Here" with the bank heist. Buffy can rationalise that all she wants, but at the end of the day she was comitting a crime (remember S6 Buffy's respect for human rules?) to further her own agenda. Willow saw this and knew from experience what a slippery slope Buffy was on, using her power to get what she wants. Then in "Time of Your Life", I was shocked by Buffy's willingness to sacrifice innocent humans for the bigger picture. Again, it can be justified, but Buffy's still become a harder character than she was in the show. She's not a villain, just a darker kind of hero.

Mar 5, 2009 20:44:34 GMT -5 AndrewCrossett said:

And Buffy's comment about having known Xander for "eight years" made me do a headdesk. Can someone tell me what year it is? I'd have been happier if she'd literally said, "I've been hanging out with Xander for eight seasons."

Urgh, I knew when I read that line that people would be moaning about it. Eight years basically translates to eight seasons. Honestly, why does it matter what year S8 takes place in? All you need to know is that it's happening after S7, there is no solid year. Everybody's way too nitpicky about this.

[AndrewCrossett]

Mar 6, 2009 9:06:10 GMT -5 Paul said:

She's not quite "Dark Buffy" but she's definitely "Darker Buffy". This was evident from the very first arc, by her ruthlessness when it came to fighting human, most likely innocent, soldiers. She and Satsu were just slicing through them, and leaving Willow to clean up the mess. At the end of the arc, Buffy shows little concern upon learning she's "at war with the human race". It became obvious in "Anywhere But Here" with the bank heist. Buffy can rationalise that all she wants, but at the end of the day she was comitting a crime (remember S6 Buffy's respect for human rules?) to further her own agenda. Willow saw this and knew from experience what a slippery slope Buffy was on, using her power to get what she wants. Then in "Time of Your Life", I was shocked by Buffy's willingness to sacrifice innocent humans for the bigger picture. Again, it can be justified, but Buffy's still become a harder character than she was in the show. She's not a villain, just a darker kind of hero.

That's a direction she's been heading in since the end of season 2. She's always put the bigger picture first, no matter how much she has to cry about it afterwards.

Her actions against the soldiers in the first arc were self-defense. "Innocence" on the soldiers' part was really irrelevant, as it always is in a wartime combat situation. They were soldiers, told to fight an enemy. Said enemy has every right to fight them back with all necessary force. General Voll's aim was to destroy Buffy and her Slayers. Human or not, the right to self-defense is universal. Any other decision on Buffy's part in this situation would have been suicidal, and homicidal, considering it would have gotten all her friends killed as well.

Note that Buffy specified beforehand to go for the wound, not the kill, when fighting humans. She did not have to do so. She had Willow heal them up afterwards, which she also did not have to do. Buffy is finding out that being a sucker is incompatible with being a hero. But even in these extreme circumstances, killing humans is something to be avoided if at all possible.

The "using power to get what she wants" argument was brought sharply into focus with this issue. Using power to carry out an Ocean's 11 style heist of insured money to help save the world? OK. Using power to oppress and hurt people and put them out of their homes? Not OK.

Buffy needs to make moral decisions based on shades of gray, and her capacity to do that is still present and healthy (if not always altogether correct, but none of us could say differently about ourselves either.)

She'll get darker, she'll make mistakes, just like she always has. But I don't see any hint of villainy or evil about her, or even the seeds of it. Will that change as the season goes on? I don't know. But right now her hat is white with just a tinge of gray... same as it's been since she was staking vamps at Hemery High.