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Post by wenxina on Dec 29, 2008 12:22:47 GMT -5
Given that we're now officially halfway through the season, I'd say it's safe to assume that Twilight will be showing his mug soon. I'm hugely excited by that almost non-spoiler, about Petrie being handpicked to write #25. Sure, there are no details as to what will go down in #25, but seeing that episode breakdown by Emmie gives me hope that there'll be much in store this next arc. Things are supposed to pick up after ToYL anyway, so I'd really like to see the writers make good on that promise.
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dane5by5
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Post by dane5by5 on Dec 29, 2008 21:10:39 GMT -5
Emmie, I love reading your musings, and KOC's for that matter! You both always have interesting perspectives and interpretations. I had never noticed how Doug Petrie's episodes were so serious in tone/subject matter. This synopsis of his previous work makes me anticipate this issue even more. I've always held the belief, right from the beginning, that there has to be some connection between Dawn and Twilight. It's just too much of a coincidence with their names. Can't wait to find out. The only kind of funny episode Petrie wrote was "Flooded" but it wasn't hilarious - laugh out loud funny, more poor Buffy she's such a mess with the flooded basement and full copper repipe funny. Come to think of it, didn't Jane Espensen co-write this episode? That's probably why it had funny undertones/moments, not much to do with Petrie.
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Post by Emmie on Dec 29, 2008 21:38:44 GMT -5
Thanks, Dane! If anyone is interested in hearing some more predictions about the issue, I've gotten some interesting responses on my LJ. A friend makes a great point that Petrie *also* writes Riley-centric episodes ( The Initiative, As You Were) and he's a big fan of the Initiative organization. So the "Twilight turning point" could very well be Riley meeting with Xander and Dawn. To what end? Well, probably as a double agent guy who's really working on Buffy's side since Petrie is a big Riley fan. I doubt he'll write Riley as evil nor do I think the plot is best served with Riley evil, not to mention his characterization would be all kinds of screwy.
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dane5by5
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Post by dane5by5 on Dec 29, 2008 22:50:09 GMT -5
You're welcome Emmie. Did you ever read that analysis of "As You Were" on LJ where the writer (who was obviously a Spike fan) interpreted the episode more as "Look How Ruthless Riley Is, Going To All This Trouble Framing Spike Just To Show Buffy How Wrong She Is" and in this understanding of the episode, Spike was genuinely minding those demon eggs for a friend, who Riley coerced into holding them. They used examples of long camera shots and dialogue between Riley, Buffy and the Scoobies to support their theory. It was fascinating, almost conspiracy theory-esque. And now after all that babbling, to my point. This writer also said, "Doug Petrie would never write Spike as an evil character, look at all he's written for Spike in the past, he's always written him as the good guy! He wrote "Fool For Love" he obviously loves Spike!" I wouldn't be too certain that Doug Petrie wouldn't write Riley as a baddie, considering precedent. Just because he's written a character one way, doesn't mean he won't turn around and do something completely unexpected, like turning them evil.
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Post by Emmie on Dec 29, 2008 23:17:51 GMT -5
I did read that analysis. Actually, I think I posted here at Slayalive to discuss it last spring. The argument is very interesting and Riley *was* acting weird during that episode. Sadly, it was left in such ambiguous territory that you can either take it at face value (Spike was the Doctor) or you can subscribe to the conspiracy theory (Riley set the whole thing up).
Personally, I like the latter because it fits with Riley deciding he needed to help Buffy and make decisions for her own good. I also took it significantly that Riley was trying to change Buffy and alter her as symbolized by how he dressed her in his commando gear (huh, Riley dressed up Buffy in that episode like she was his "living doll"). As Buffy said in Season 4 about her clothes "I've patrolled in this halter many times", she doesn't need to wear protective gear. She's the slayer and what she wears is part of her Buffy-identity. Riley dressing her and her allowing it was a huge sign that Buffy's self-esteem was conflicted. And Riley dressing her was part of his trying to control and manipulate her viewpoint. Making her see the world through his perspective. Not to say that he wasn't right - her relationship with Spike was dragging her down. It was self-destructive at that point and she needed to end the vicious cycle (where as in Season 7, I enjoyed their connection more).
I recently rewatched that episode and some things struck me as very odd. Like when Riley is patrolling with Buffy and Sam first catches up with them, Riley says "I didn't think she'd find us so fast." It was almost like he was avoiding Sam and had arrived in Sunnydale long before she did. Probably so he could see Buffy first and break the news that he was married. And I have to wonder if he did see Buffy and Spike together outside Buffy's house when they made love against the tree in the front yard. The long camera shot that suggests a voyeur's perspective.
Followed by the suspicious way Riley says he going to hit up "Willy's" and "some crypts he knows" for information on the Doctor. Sounds more like he was specifically looking for Spike.
I just have trouble seeing Riley as the baddie. Unless he really does believe that he's doing the right thing by ending magic. But the way he was grinning and mocking Buffy for getting "dressed up" in #19 makes me think that he's putting on a show for Twilight. Riley doesn't treat women that way. Something huge would have needed to occur in his past with Sam to make him act like Parker's big brother.
A part of me is hoping that Joss tapped Petrie to write this because of the ambiguity of As You Were and that Riley's development (Macchiavellian) in that episode will naturally continue in Living Doll.
I think the Macchiavellian allusions in the beginning of As You Were are also significant. They don't just throw in those literary references for no reason. So who would be Macchiavelli in that episode? My money's on Riley with his Deus Ex Machina exit that shows him magically coming in and "fixing" Buffy by manipulating her viewpoint of her life. Granted, her viewpoint was completely messed and needed to be shaken up.
Doesn't change the fact that he was uber-sneaky in how he did it. It just shows that Riley finally mastered the lying part of being a covert agent, something he wasn't good at during Season 4. And it fits with his characterization for that episode as he clearly returned harder and more contained, no longer the goofish Iowa boy.
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Post by henzINNIT on Dec 30, 2008 8:07:48 GMT -5
It would be absolutely incredible if Riley's presence was really the result of all this. Unfortunately I'm not sure Joss & co ever put that much thought into this kind of stuff the way us fans do. Still I'm hoping for at least an interesting Riley story, we'd better not get as bad a cop-out as we did for the details of Warren's return.
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Malsad
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Post by Malsad on Dec 30, 2008 22:15:59 GMT -5
whats a " goo-fish"?
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Post by wenxina on Dec 30, 2008 22:21:03 GMT -5
whats a " goo-fish"? If you're actually confused, I think it was meant to be read as "goof-ish".
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dane5by5
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Post by dane5by5 on Dec 31, 2008 0:11:05 GMT -5
A part of me is hoping that Joss tapped Petrie to write this because of the ambiguity of As You Were and that Riley's development (Macchiavellian) in that episode will naturally continue in Living Doll. I think the Macchiavellian allusions in the beginning of As You Were are also significant. They don't just throw in those literary references for no reason. So who would be Macchiavelli in that episode? My money's on Riley with his Deus Ex Machina exit that shows him magically coming in and "fixing" Buffy by manipulating her viewpoint of her life. Granted, her viewpoint was completely messed and needed to be shaken up. Doesn't change the fact that he was uber-sneaky in how he did it. It just shows that Riley finally mastered the lying part of being a covert agent, something he wasn't good at during Season 4. And it fits with his characterization for that episode as he clearly returned harder and more contained, no longer the goofish Iowa boy. There's no doubt in my mind that Riley is not the corn fed Iowa boy he once was, something changed for him when he left Sunnydale, that much was obvious when he returned with Sam in "As You Were". The Macchiavellian references were in the episode for a reason. The purpose of the allusion was left ambiguous, but with this latest revelation, it does seem to fit that in the episode Riley was manipulating the situation and to continue that story on through Season Eight would make for great continuity and perhaps a more explicit statement on the nature of events in "As You Were". I just read the post on your LJ and one of the comments said, "Personally, I related the title to the Cliff Richard song, which has some pretty skeevy lyrics for what's supposedly a straight-faced love song and seems to fit Kenny/Dawn pretty well ("Gonna lock her up in a trunk so no big hunk can steal her away from me")." That would also make sense, as it would not be the first time Petrie has taken inspiration from a song a la "This Year's Girl" and if my memory serves, he's also a music fanatic.
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Post by Rebecca on Dec 31, 2008 0:15:20 GMT -5
Um.... who's Pat? That friend of Joyce's who got turned into a Zombie and killed by Buffy? If so, she has death in common with Ethan, so perhaps that's where the "living puppets" comes into play. Ew. Aaand Xander and Dawn getting the smoochies on... also ew. Oh, and as a side note, I'm starting to think that Twilight will never be revealed. **braces for thrown rotten fruit** I look forward to more to the Twilight story, but I will not be expecting a reveal. Like... ever.
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Post by Emmie on Dec 31, 2008 0:29:58 GMT -5
whats a " goo-fish"? If you're actually confused, I think it was meant to be read as "goof-ish". Not only was it meant to be read as "goof-ish" but that's how it's spelled, too. But hey, it's a made-up word. Should I have said "goofy" instead? I just read the post on your LJ and one of the comments said, "Personally, I related the title to the Cliff Richard song, which has some pretty skeevy lyrics for what's supposedly a straight-faced love song and seems to fit Kenny/Dawn pretty well ("Gonna lock her up in a trunk so no big hunk can steal her away from me")." That would also make sense, as it would not be the first time Petrie has taken inspiration from a song a la "This Year's Girl" and if my memory serves, he's also a music fanatic. Dane, that title could resonate on many levels, too. Perhaps taking inspiration from the song and the meaning expands. Um.... who's Pat? That friend of Joyce's who got turned into a Zombie and killed by Buffy? If so, she has death in common with Ethan, so perhaps that's where the "living puppets" comes into play. Ew. Touched, it was a joke. If you read a few posts after I make that Spoiler post, Smashed asks who Pat is also and patxshand replies "me". I was making fun of Pat/patxshand and Ethan/hitnrun017 for them saying I "Epic Fail"-ed when I didn't.
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Post by Rebecca on Dec 31, 2008 19:07:12 GMT -5
Oh lol, I thought Pat was being silly and I didn't know hitnrun017's name was Ethan. My bad ____________________________ Oh wow, I just had a disturbing thought. I still believe that Dawn has the magic of the key inside her. What if like what Glory did to Tara, what if Twilight took Dawn's essence, the very thing which makes her a key? Would that take away her light, her personality, her soul? Making her a living doll?
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Post by Emmie on Dec 31, 2008 20:13:00 GMT -5
Oh wow, I just had a disturbing thought. I still believe that Dawn has the magic of the key inside her. What if like what Glory did to Tara, what if Twilight took Dawn's essence, the very thing which makes her a key? Would that take away her light, her personality, her soul? Making her a living doll? Wow, that's a great idea, Touched. What if all these transformations are 'tenderizing' Dawn so he can empty her of her key magic? Yikes.
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Post by Rebecca on Dec 31, 2008 20:58:55 GMT -5
I didn't think Twilight would be in on the transformations, rather Dawn's final transformation would be back to normal, and then Twilight would take her key magic. Tho, that is an interesting idea, that Twilight was in on transforming Dawn, jeekers, I hope nothing happens to Dawnie!!
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alycat7
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Post by alycat7 on Dec 31, 2008 23:38:36 GMT -5
I dont think anything bad is gonna happen to Dawn.
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witcher
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Post by witcher on Jan 1, 2009 8:38:41 GMT -5
I dont think anything bad is gonna happen to Dawn. Well she did get turned into a giant and a centaur! How worst can it get? I have very high hopes for this issue ( maybe to high ). I'm hoping that it will answer at least one of two burning questions: 1. Who is Twilight? 2. What is Dawns third transformation ( and what caused it ). I think the first question is still on everybody's mind! Now that we know that it is not Riley, I have lost my favorite candidate! Now my money is on Angel or Spike or Giles or Xander... too many. Angel and Spike could have realized that magic will cause hell on earth and decided to put a stop to it.. Giles could think that spell in Chosen was wrong, and that Slayers, and Buffy as their leader, are becoming too powerful ( my least favorite theory because its kinda too Star Wars, and 5 stand-alones make S8 look too X-Men anyway so it just feels like loosing original Buffy) and need to be stopped. Xander could just want a normal life for his friends ( my favorite theory). And in some point in the future he and Willow battled ( so epic to see Buffy's best two friends fight against each other). As for Dawn I would like it more if the transformations were metaphor for growing-up and becoming an adult, more than if they were just a flashy sub-plot made up to keep her in S8. If Xander is Twilight he could try to un-magic Dawn to keep her in magic-free world.. Anyway this is the issue I'm most exited about!!! And I think this 5 issues are gonna be the best so far..
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Slayer489
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Post by Slayer489 on Jan 1, 2009 14:20:12 GMT -5
I think I agree that Dawn may be manipulated by Twilight and that this issue would be the perfect time to have this happen. The names...Dawn...Twilight...something's got to be happening there. And I am STILL convinced that Twilight may be Mr Maclay. A minor character? Yes. Though minor characters can have big impacts, and I think he had one. It would also be great drama for Willow and Kennedy.
And my hopes are too high as well!
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Post by tms on Jan 1, 2009 14:22:42 GMT -5
It would also be great drama for Willow and Kennedy. Explain how that would cause drama for Willow/Kennedy?
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Post by Rebecca on Jan 1, 2009 17:37:57 GMT -5
It would also be great drama for Willow and Kennedy. Explain how that would cause drama for Willow/Kennedy? I can only guess that they mean the appearance of Mr. Maclay would make Willow all sad about Tara and possibly remind her how much she still loves her, thus causing something between Willow and Kennedy. That or Willow will jump him and have a passionate love affair.
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Post by Emmie on Jan 1, 2009 20:47:25 GMT -5
Please, god no. Mr. Maclay returning would be just...bad.
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