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Post by Rebecca on May 27, 2009 17:51:09 GMT -5
I like the character of Willow, and I ahve watched all the episodes up to Wrecked and I simply don't see whre the magic Addiction started prior to that episode. it seemed shoed in as if the writers were lacking in courage to continue their less stylistic but more substantial drunk on power storyline that it had been up to that point. **Apologies for the long post, I know it's been said before, but I figured posting examples and why they amount to psychological addiction is warranted. I know I'm coming into this late, but I believe the idea of abuse and addiction began with the very first episode of the season. It started with abuse, but quickly turns into psychological compulsion/addiction (defined as compulsively repeating a behavior despite harmful effects fully knowledgeable to the actor) which grows over the first 9 episodes. Physical addiction doesn't show until Smashed, when her tolerance goes up and we see her first withdrawal. To answer your question, I reviewed the first part of Season 6, and I found that almost all episodes prior to Wrecked showed Willow's addiction coming on gradually, but very evident, at least to me. In Bargaining 1 & 2, S6E01, Willow used her power to resurrect Buffy. That in and of itself was borderline abuse, because in cases of sickness and death (as evidenced in S5's Shadow and Forever and S6's Villains), magick isn't to be used. Buffy's was a special case and was allowed... but still wasn't right (see below in Flooded). In After Life, S6E03,Willow was more adamant in justifying her actions than being legitimately concerned for Buffy's well-being. Prior to this episode, I was willing to give her the benefit of the doubt of just being like the rest of the Scoobies in selfishly wanting Buffy back. They were all guilty of it. However, her remarkable lack of concern for Buffy's well being puts it into the abuse category. Spike even said that Willow took a huge risk to Buffy's well being to conduct the spell: Spike: "I think I've figured it out. You may not have, but I did. Willow knew there was a chance that she'd come back wrong. So wrong that you'd have--that she'd have to get rid of what came back, and I wouldn't let her."
"The thing about magic, there's always consequences. Always."
Willow being unconcerned or worried about her spell's harm to Buffy shows just how abusive her use of magick was. Willow did mention that had everything gone right, Buffy should have been acting normal, or happy. But then she devolves into believing that everything went right and she would thank her eventually. Tara: "You thought she'd say thank you. Be more grateful."
Willow: "Would I be a terrible person if I said yes?" My answer? Yes, she's a terrible person for wanting to be thanked, because it is only to quell her cognitive dissonance and guilt over her abuse of magicks, even if she doesn't realize it yet. In Flooded, S6E04, Giles tells Willow that she has crossed a line, that she didn't respect the forces of nature. That she abused it. She responds that she doesn't consider her actions as risky, but talented, and is confused why he isn't congratulating her for how awesome she is. He even compares her to "bad guys" in her words, but like many addicts, they don't believe that they could ever cross the line. There is no line "because they can handle it". Then she actually threatens Giles to back off, instead of taking heed to his criticism. GILES: (over his shoulder) You're a very stupid girl.
Willow pauses chewing, slowly stops smiling and frowns.
WILLOW: What? Giles...
GILES: (turns to face her) Do you have any idea what you've done? The forces you've harnessed, the lines you've crossed?
WILLOW: I thought you'd be ... impressed, or, or something.
GILES: Oh, don't worry, you've ... made a very deep impression. Of everyone here ... you were the one I trusted most to respect the forces of nature.
WILLOW: Are you saying you don't trust me?
GILES: (intensely) Think what you've done to Buffy.
WILLOW: I brought her back!
GILES: At incredible risk!
WILLOW: Risk? Of what? Making her deader?
GILES: Of killing us all. Unleashing hell on Earth, I mean, shall I go on?
WILLOW: No! (stands) Giles, I did what I had to do. I did what nobody else could do.
GILES: Oh, there are others in this world who can do what you did. You just don't want to meet them. (turns away again)
WILLOW: No, probably not, but ... well, they're the bad guys. I'm not a bad guy. (upset) I brought Buffy back into this world, a-and maybe the word you should be looking for is "congratulations."
GILES: Having Buffy back in the world makes me feel ... indescribably wonderful, but I wouldn't congratulate you if you jumped off a cliff and happened to survive.
WILLOW: That's not what I did, Giles.
GILES: (angry) You were lucky.
WILLOW: I wasn't lucky. I was amazing. And how would you know? You weren't even there.
GILES: If I had been, I'd have bloody well stopped you. The magicks you channeled are more ferocious and primal than anything you can hope to understand, (even more angry) and you are lucky to be alive, you rank, arrogant amateur!
Giles angrily grabs his towel and turns to leave.
WILLOW: You're right.
He pauses by the door, looks back at her.
WILLOW: The magicks I used are very powerful. I'm very powerful. And maybe it's not such a good idea for you to piss me off.
Giles stares at her, then looks away. After a moment, Willow relents.
WILLOW: Come on, Giles, I-I don't want to fight. I ... Let's not, okay? I'll think about what you said, and you ... try to be happy Buffy's back.
GILES: (quietly) We still don't know where she was ... or what happened to her.
Cut to the back porch. Buffy stands there, hugging herself. We see her from the back.
GILES: (O.S.) And I'm far from convinced she's come out of all this undamaged. Her unwillingness to accept that she abused her power when told so from a very reputable source is the first sign that she is addicted to magicks; that she understood the risks, but took them anyway, that she could handle it. I take this as a huge indication of psychological addiction because despite the risk of harm to herself and others, she clearly demonstrates that she would be willing to take those same risks again. The only thing missing is the compulsion and repetitive action factor. Enter compulsion and repetitive action factor: In All the Way, S6E06, Tara begins to worry about Willow's frivolous use of magick, that she's abusing it. After Tara confronts Willow about it, Willow uses forget-me-nots to make Tara forget, effectively mind-raping her (that's my opinion, but clearly it's domestically abusive). Also, her willingness to put her use of magicks above her soulmate's mind and well-being attests to her psychological addiction. In Once More With Feeling, S6E07, we hear Tara's disheartening song about not being able to trust Willow anymore, showcasing Willow's use of the forget-me-not spell on Tara. In Tabula Rasa, S6E08, Tara confronts Willow again about her use of magicks, and more importantly her messing with her memories after what Glory did to her--Willow didn't think about the consequences of her actions. Moreover, Willow didn't want to think about them, because instead of abiding by Tara's wishes to go one week without using magicks, she uses the memory spell again. Everyone is affected by the forget-me-not spell gone wrong. After the blatant evidence that Willow hasn't realized she's abusing magic, Tara leaves Willow. This is addiction, plain and simple. When clearly warned she could lose Tara, she still believes "she can handle it" and uses the memory spell again. She couldn't even handle one week without magick, she was so addicted to it. One could say she was physically addicted to it by this point because she couldn't get ready in time to leave with everyone (moving slower is a physical quality of depression, a common symptom of withdrawal. Others are irritability, inability to sleep or sleeping too much, inability to concentrate, feelings of guilt, lack of apatite... you get the drift). But this is CLEARLY addictive behavior. In Smashed, S6E09, we see the first clear sign that Willow suffering from minor withdrawal, and is therefore physically addicted to magick. (She cannot concentrate, highlighting most of her book). Instead of taking Tara's departure as a wake-up call that she needs help, she succumbs to the physical need and thinks up a way to de-rat Amy, a poor replacement for Tara as a magical friend. They then go out and use so much magicks they grow bored with it. All this knowing Tara left her. ANYA: Oh, for crying out loud. This is bizarre. You're all, 'la la la!' with, with the magic, and the not talking, like everything's normal, when we all know that Tara up and left you and now everyone's scared to say anything to you. The compulsion to use and abuse magicks which lead Tara to leave Willow clearly shows psychological addiction. She couldn't keep herself from using magicks, even for someone she clearly loved. Although physical addiction didn't make an appearance until the beginning of Smashed (one could argue Tabula Rasa... finding it difficult to get ready as quickly as the other girls), addiction itself is a very evident theme through the beginning of the season. |
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Post by wenxina on May 27, 2009 19:22:18 GMT -5
Thanks for addressing the addiction issue. Oh, and kinda loving that banner... am I supposed to mask my affiliations?  |
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Post by Rebecca on May 27, 2009 19:24:40 GMT -5
Lol. Your custom title kind of inspired it |
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Post by ambersknight on May 28, 2009 5:22:56 GMT -5
Hi rebecca. This is where there will be a little difference here. I absolutely agree with the thrust of most of your post. But where you saw magic addiction, I saw drunk on power. It was her blurring of the moral line, due to her belief that cos she could do a thing that gave her justification to do so, that caused a lot of the situations you describe. She was so morally askewed she didn't even think about the wiping of Tara's mind (twice) cos in ehr warped view it was all rational because as long as she felt she was coming from the right place (the very foundation of her moral compass blurring and whizzing out of control) she could do what she wanted. So for me, everything you ahve posted is pretty much the reason why i claim the first part of the season was about being drunk on power, not addicted to magic.
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Post by Rebecca on May 28, 2009 9:01:33 GMT -5
Hi rebecca. This is where there will be a little difference here. I absolutely agree with the thrust of most of your post. But where you saw magic addiction, I saw drunk on power. It was her blurring of the moral line, due to her belief that cos she could do a thing that gave her justification to do so, that caused a lot of the situations you describe. She was so morally askewed she didn't even think about the wiping of Tara's mind (twice) cos in ehr warped view it was all rational because as long as she felt she was coming from the right place (the very foundation of her moral compass blurring and whizzing out of control) she could do what she wanted. So for me, everything you ahve posted is pretty much the reason why i claim the first part of the season was about being drunk on power, not addicted to magic. It's pretty clear that you aren't one to be reasoned with. You are stuck on your convictions, however incorrect. By definition, she was psychologically addicted to magick prior to Smashed/Wrecked. What you fail to see is not the fault of the writers, but your own. |
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Post by ambersknight on May 28, 2009 9:55:06 GMT -5
Okay, that was just a tad personal and uncalled for and may i add, easily reversed if you want to play that game.
I stand by my opinion and could easily claim you to be wrong on the exact same grounds you accuse of me.
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Mathieu
Ensouled Vampire
[Mo0:0]
Posts: 1,069
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Post by Mathieu on May 28, 2009 10:05:27 GMT -5
Okay, that was just a tad personal and uncalled for and may i add, easily reversed if you want to play that game. I stand by my opinion and could easily claim you to be wrong on the exact same grounds you accuse of me. I really can't understand why you can't see the magic addiction. She would use magic to make her life easier all the time and she even reached a point where she had to use spells to have Tara forget about their little quarrels. Talk about being addicted. When she brought Buffy back, it was not about power, it was about healing her own pain. It's like those people who drink or do drugs, or even smoke cigarettes because it relieves their pain or their anguish. they just need it to fix things in their head temporarily. It's a drug. It has nothing to do with power (even though in Willow's case I do agree she was actually addicted to her "magical powers", the power she had to make everything better for a while without thinking about the consequences). it still is an addiction though. |
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Post by Rebecca on May 28, 2009 10:06:59 GMT -5
Okay, that was just a tad personal and uncalled for and may i add, easily reversed if you want to play that game. I stand by my opinion and could easily claim you to be wrong on the exact same grounds you accuse of me. Excuse me, I meant "you are unreasonable on this subject". I take this stance because numerous people have called you out on it, and yet you say meh, I won't even have a respectful dialogue, but disagree and be done with it. I called you wrong on this subject, and you have yet to come up with any supportive evidence to your opinion contrary to mine and others. I bring up facts, definitions, and a well supported argument, but you ignore them and say "where you saw addiction I saw drunk with power." I find that quite unreasonable. And yet you have the presumption to say the writers did a poor job introducing and escalating addiction prior to Smashed/Wrecked. I find it astonishing. I was not attacking you personally, just your unreasonableness on this subject. |
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Post by ambersknight on May 28, 2009 10:17:46 GMT -5
But I've not been unreasonable. I've been pretty thorough throughout this post as to my reasons. That they are not clear enough for you is one thing, but to say I am being unreasonable because I do not accept your arguments is quite another. I gave my reasons as to why I did not agree with your position.
And I could claim that you are giving the writers perhaps too much credit. But what we have is a difference of opinion. There is no need for personal slights, inferred or otherwise.
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Post by ambersknight on May 28, 2009 10:26:56 GMT -5
As it seems a dissenting voice is unwanted on certain subjects. I will from ehreo on in only post on topics that I agree with. That way i don't need to face the wrath of certain people.
it is sad when someone is not allowed to hold a strong opinion without being called unreasonable for doing so. Everyone has opinions about certain subjects and as long as those opinions are made clear that should be respected. I feel I am not repsected so I will be posting less frequently. from now and will enver again post regarding season 6 as it appears it ofends the majority to do so.
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Post by henzINNIT on May 28, 2009 10:29:51 GMT -5
ambersknight, I think I totally agree with your thoughts.
Willow early on in season 6 was using magic for everything, to the point where rules and morals no longer applied. She was abusing her gifts.
Then, midway through the season, she turns into a smelly addict who suddenly uses magic like crack. That shift turned Willow from a scary and intruiging person becoming drunk on their own power into a helpless addict.
That's what bugging you right? Cause thats eactly how I feel.
I think she was addicted to magic all the way through as other people are arguing, but addicted as in she was selfishly immersed in her abilities, and not snorting spells out of her magic book which she was basically doing in Smashed/Wrecked.
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Post by wenxina on May 28, 2009 10:45:40 GMT -5
Reminding everyone to take a happy pill for the day.  |
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Post by henzINNIT on May 28, 2009 10:47:52 GMT -5
*swallows* that'll go down well with the vicodin and vallium.
We're all aware that the reason why there is a disagreement about "Drunk on Power" and "Magic Addiction" is because AK is criticising the progression in the season, right? lol
He's complaining precisely about this development from abusing power into physical magic-dependancy, so of course he's going to argue the technicallities in naming it. He doesn't buy that shift.
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Mathieu
Ensouled Vampire
[Mo0:0]
Posts: 1,069
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Post by Mathieu on May 28, 2009 11:05:47 GMT -5
Reminding everyone to take a happy pill for the day. I'm seeing some warning meters coming some people's way! Thanks by the way Wenxina for removing mine. |
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Post by Skytteflickan88 on May 28, 2009 11:25:25 GMT -5
I haven't read the entire thread, justa few lines here and there, so I won't get into this discussion in depth, but the latest question of interest seems to be;
Was Willow's magic addiction sudden or not?
I didn't think she was addicted to magic until Wrecked. Before, I just thought she had a "let's take the easy way"-personality. She was used to getting things easy, and since she thought she did good(for example, her and Tara not fighting) she didn't think of it. She forgot her morals and used magic to "fix things".
Later on, for example in Wrecked, I see that I was wrong. It wasn't all about the power addiction, it was about the pull of the magic as well. Her need to make things easy and her need for magic got blended together. I don't know when this started tough, for all I know, since Becoming part 2 she's been addicted. Or maybe it wasn't until Tough Love that she started to lose control.
I've always been curious about how she was affected morally by her addiction. For all I know, she still doesn't feel sorry for WHAT she did with magic, just that she needed magic.
I understand why the writers choose to take Willow in the magic addiction, actually it was fascinating, but I would have wanted more focus on her morals and power addiction.
I believe she's in control over the magic now, but I still don't know if she's still the "easy fix" kind of girl.
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Post by henzINNIT on May 28, 2009 12:44:57 GMT -5
I think it was cheap to turn her abuse of magic into a full blown addiction. It makes her more helpless and therefore more sympathetic, whereas she could have been made into a truely scary and calculating character. You could argue that doing this would damage many people's image of Willow, but I think it's just as harmful to have her turn into a victim again, after she had become so empowered.
Honestly, I'd rather skip most of season 6 and only refer to the major plot points. I find most of the content far less impressive than the outlines would have you expect.
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Post by henzINNIT on Jun 7, 2009 7:24:32 GMT -5
Things that suck... (feel free to add)
-Hells Bells
-Warren's magic Tara-seeking bullets
-Dumpster sex
-Magic is like crack. Why? Cause we say so
-Hells Bells
-HELLS BELLS
Contribute :0)
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The Night Lord
Wise-cracking Sidekick
The Long Kiss Goodnight
There can be no love. Only pain exists[Mo0:1]
Posts: 2,654
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Post by The Night Lord on Jun 7, 2009 7:33:47 GMT -5
'Ah hell's bells' - awesome song. Oh, we're talking about the episode. Never mind me *whistles innocently* I'll add Spike's attempted raping, not much Spike/Dawn friendship, no Angel crossovers, cuz that would have been interesting,
BUFFY: You have a son! An actual flesh-and-blood son??
ANGEL: You're sleeping with Spike? SPIKE?!
Um, where was I? Trio is the lamest Big Bad. Lamer than Adam. Warren on his own is a better villian really. Anything else?
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worldofshrimps
Potential Slayer
Spangel Fan
"This is nice. I like seeing you in the morning."[Mo0:11]
Posts: 117
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Post by worldofshrimps on Jun 7, 2009 7:35:19 GMT -5
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Post by ambersknight on Jun 7, 2009 7:42:59 GMT -5
I hate bashing season 6 I realy do 9and I mean that). I have a go at it for a very simple reason: i love buffy as a show. As a fan I feel it would be remiss of me to just blindly follow. if I like something, and thee is much to like in season 1-5, then I applaude, but I could not in good conscience as a fan watch season 6 and not feel both appalled and betrayed by the writers.
There were good things in season 6, which i mentioned in the thread about highlights, but there was much bad. yes I ahve made much of the Magic Addiction storyline as I feel it is a continuous rumble of innaccuracies and dramatic inconsistencies but there are other plotlines that really dragged season 6 as well.
Spuffy went on for too long, sucking the air out of other stories. Also, the attempted rape by Spike was not oonly shocking to watch (the second attempted rape on the show that year) but made slightly worse by the fact that it was filmed in such a way as to elicit sympathy for the rapist. This never sat comfortably with me.
Xander and Anya's non-wedding seemed off completely. There was no surprise in their not getting married. if the writers had wanted to surprise us, they should've allowed the wedding to go ahead.
Dawn's kleptomania also was a storyline that wasn't truly ahndled very well. Actually it wasn't really handled. Starved for life after the writers got too interested in Spuffy the sotryline just died a slow silent death.
But the Magic Addiction storyline looms large over all of it as it was the storyline the writers were pinning their ending on. That it was, in my opinion, a catastrophic failure from start to finish angers me. Not because Tara died, although don't get me wrong it annoys, but that the character was killed for suhc a pointless and banal storyline. I could ahve taken tara's death if it was part of some good, logical, emotionally charged story that ahd soemthing new to say and was saying it in an exciting and dramatic fashion. But as I've said many times, the storyline, especially its ending, was such a diluted re-hash that it lost all dignity.
As a Buffy fan I demand to be treated with respect by the writers and not, as I see, to be given any ol' shit and expected to accept it. I made time to watch Buffy, as we all did, and we deserve to be respected and not disrespected with crass storylines.
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