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Post by ambersknight on Jun 9, 2009 17:07:53 GMT -5
No. Very diffeent. Magic was not seen as addictive. When Eyghon possessed someone it was an enormous high but there was no addiction to magic.
This was only brought in in season 6 but rather than doing something interesting with it they used as a fairly lame and rather lukewarm drugs metaphor.
After Trainspotting, Buffy didn't come close to the horrors of addiction.
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Post by henzINNIT on Jun 9, 2009 17:50:56 GMT -5
If Wrecked was anything like Trainspotting, I'd let the cop-out of it all slide. Willow climbing out of a toilet = awesome.
This hasn't been touched on yet, but as a depiction of drug abuse, it was bloody rubbish as well lol
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Post by ambersknight on Jun 9, 2009 17:53:10 GMT -5
Well, yes it had its comedy and surreal moments but also moments that really let you know how terrible addiction and withdrawal are. Look a tthe Renton De-tox sequence to Willow's. Her's is laughably tame by comparison.
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Post by henzINNIT on Jun 9, 2009 17:59:07 GMT -5
The Willow stuff is just so lame. Hannigan did her best, but it's just so ill-fitting. Whenever Buffy touches this kind of issue, like when charcaters are drinking in season 4; it just reminds me of those god-awful teen educational videos everyone experiences at school. Where's the quirk?
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Reluctant Hero
Potential Slayer
To read makes our speaking English good. [Mo0:15]
Posts: 104
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Post by Reluctant Hero on Jun 16, 2009 22:50:16 GMT -5
Joss Whedon seems to love laying on the misery. Sometimes things are so upbeat and happy and the next thing you know he's like " Ok, everybody's too happy! Time for something awful to happen!"
(Spoilers!!!!!)
"Let's have Cordelia be possesed!
Maybe we should have Spike and Buffy have public sex (ewww).
Let's drag out Joyce's illness for FOREVER and then just kill her suddenly.
Tara should die.
Hey guys who wants Connor to get sent to a hell demension and then hate everyone?
You know, we should kill Penny. I really think that's a good idea. "
Sometimes I really just want people to have a good time in the whedon verse. I know fighting evil and life are supposed to be difficult but these characters deserve better. I'm not knocking his work though. He's amazing and I loved BTVS and Angel but still....
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Mathieu
Ensouled Vampire
[Mo0:0]
Posts: 1,069
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Post by Mathieu on Jun 16, 2009 22:54:36 GMT -5
Joss Whedon seems to love laying on the misery. Sometimes things are so upbeat and happy and the next thing you know he's like " Ok, everybody's too happy! Time for something awful to happen!" (Spoilers!!!!!) "Let's have Cordelia be possesed! Maybe we should have Spike and Buffy have public sex (ewww). Let's drag out Joyce's illness for FOREVER and then just kill her suddenly. Tara should die. Hey guys who wants Connor to get sent to a hell demension and then hate everyone? You know, we should kill Penny. I really think that's a good idea. " Sometimes I really just want people to have a good time in the whedon verse. I know fighting evil and life are supposed to be difficult but these characters deserve better. I'm not knocking his work though. He's amazing and I loved BTVS and Angel but still.... If all the things that you mentioned had never happened, you would not love the Buffyverse as much as you do. Maybe it's unconscious but that's how they caught our interest. |
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Post by lightandmagic on Jun 17, 2009 0:16:18 GMT -5
Joss Whedon seems to love laying on the misery. Sometimes things are so upbeat and happy and the next thing you know he's like " Ok, everybody's too happy! Time for something awful to happen!" (Spoilers!!!!!) "Let's have Cordelia be possesed! Maybe we should have Spike and Buffy have public sex (ewww). Let's drag out Joyce's illness for FOREVER and then just kill her suddenly. Tara should die. Hey guys who wants Connor to get sent to a hell demension and then hate everyone? You know, we should kill Penny. I really think that's a good idea. " Sometimes I really just want people to have a good time in the whedon verse. I know fighting evil and life are supposed to be difficult but these characters deserve better. I'm not knocking his work though. He's amazing and I loved BTVS and Angel but still.... If all the things that you mentioned had never happened, you would not love the Buffyverse as much as you do. Maybe it's unconscious but that's how they caught our interest. I don't know. I love all of Whedon's work mostly because of the characters he writes, and for the stories. I like that he is willing to show the harder side of life, death, misery and pain and all that stuff. But having every single relationship fail miserably all the time is just so depressing, and now kind of expected. When Penny died in Dr. Horrible, it was depressing and sad, but so expected when death shouldn't be. It's becoming something that he relies on almost. On to Season 6. I enjoy it, but I perfectly understand why people wouldn't. Too much shit went down. Way too much, the fact that these people aren't broken after all the crap they've been through is pretty amazing. I hated the addiction to magic storyline in the beginning, but after it ultimately (along with Tara's death) caused her to become Dark Willow, I felt it somewhat worthwhile. I still hate the scenes where Willow's supposed to be "high on magic" as they always came off as dumb and kinda preachy (Don't do drugs, kids!). |
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Nicholas
Descendant of a Toaster Oven
One Good Scare
Tonight I'm Dancing.[Mo0:16]
Posts: 656
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Post by Nicholas on Jun 17, 2009 2:19:21 GMT -5
I personally think that Season 6 went to a place that the show needed to go. The previous 5 seasons really were touchy when it came to the darker subjects of life and Season 6 actually went there, which I believe was the right thing to do. People do deal with depression, addiction, and rape. It touched on the darker subjects in life and it touched upon a lot of things that we are afraid to talk about, are afraid to admit which is why I think a lot don't like it.
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Post by henzINNIT on Jun 17, 2009 3:35:10 GMT -5
Season 6 failed to do justice to those topics (except rape), that's why it sucks.
The trio were kinda pointless as villains to some extent, but they're actually the best used subjects for the season's darker issues and a very good choice.
The writers were too attached to Willow it seems, and puss'd out on every opportunity to actually do something unsympathetic with her.
The writers clearly liked James Masters in hot or naked situations (don't blame them), so we had to see him humping at least once per episode.
Keeping up with Joss traditions, they were too obsessed with destroying all relationships, so Xander and Anya had to go for no reason.
And of course they had to kill off whoever was happiest or useful to screw everyone over, which meant Tara got hit with a magic bullet.
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Post by CowboyGuy on Jun 17, 2009 4:21:38 GMT -5
Wow never even looked in this thread till now. Such a heated debate...I'm bummed that AmbersKnight decided to delete his account due to disagreements. Main points I would change:- Willow and the gang would have brought Buffy back, as it happened. Except that Willow would have been more persuasive and basically forced the idea on the gang.
- Willow threatens to mind wipe Giles in talking to Tara, after they fought in the kitchen. Tara is shocked an cannot believe Willow would ever think of doing that.
- The events leading up to Tabula Rasa remain as they are. The added punch to Tara is that Willow did to her what she already threatened to do to Giles. It hurts all the more because Willow and Tara already talked about how dangerous and horrible the act is.
- Tara breaks up with Willow, who is not sad. Rather she feels free like a real addict would and seeks out Rack on her own.
- Coming home from her first power high from Rack, she frees Amy from her ratty prison.
- Smashed happens as it was. Wrecked will have to be re-named because we save the car crash scene till later in the season.
- Give Dawn screen-time, show her stealing! She skips school and gets arrested, causing the school and social workers to get involved.
- Dawn's arrest is the first step in Buffy's wake-up call.
- Buffy has a moment of clarity in talking to Dawn about her future. She decides to end the sexual relationship with Spike.
- Buffy does go to work at the Double-Meat Palace. Tortured and confused because she still wants Spike.
- Riley comes to town as it was. Buffy has a moment of weakness, has sex with Spike. Riley comes in.
- Spike is NOT some egg holder in my scenario. Riley was just merely following Buffy. The three of them find the demon eggs at their nest in the sewer, and Riley leaves. Before leaving he consoles Buffy about the loss of Joyce (which they didn't address in the episode!) and reminds her that she is better than how she is acting. Riley and Sam leave as it was. Buffy tells Spike it's over and to stay away from her.
- Shorten the amount of Buffy depressed time.
- At some point, Spike is made aware that Willow goes to see Rack
- Willow offers to watch Dawn, so Buffy can investigate the Trio with Xander one night. Willow meets up with Rack to get her fix, leaving Dawn alone in the waiting room. Amy comes in as well, and jealous that Rack spends more time with Willow she suggests Dawn leave and go see the movie by herself.
- Buffy and Xander look for the Trio's hideout, and run into Spike. After numerous calls home, Buffy is worried that she cannot get in contact with Willow/Dawn. Spike offers up the Rack info, and the three of them go find his lair. On the way there Spike and Buffy are awkward and Xander notices this. They hear Dawn scream, and the whole end scene plays like it did originally, except that Xander is there to witness Willow's low point.
- Xander takes Willow home, and Buffy takes Dawn to the hospital, etc. Spike tags along, and Buffy tells him to go home and reminds him that she doesn't want to see him. He doesn't believe this. Buffy is also unsure but sticks to her word.
- Cut to - Xander in Willow's room. Willow on the bed. They talk about her magic addiction and Xander expresses guilt in not paying attention to Willow, due to his upcoming wedding to Anya. They both agree that Willow needs to stop doing magic.
- At night, we get the scene of Buffy in bed with a cross, and Willow shivering due to magic-withdrawl. Add - Xander and Anya in bed, happy. Spike looking up at Buffy's window longingly.
- Willow tells Amy to stop coming around.
- Xander and Anya DO get married. Giles came. The Trio send a demon to attack Buffy at the reception.
- Willow and Tara see each other at the wedding as it happened. Tara still expresses caution for the memory wipe from Tabula Rasa
- Buffy kills the demon, and we get one semi-happy ending with the wedding actually happening despite Tara and Willow friction.
- Giles departs once again to England, leaving Buffy another check, and tells her to focus on finding her Warren.
- Cue the episode where Buffy finds and defeats Warren..."goodnight bitch" etc. Andrew and Jonathan are arrested and Warren escapes.
- Spike attempts to rape Buffy in the bathroom after her fight with Warren.
- Xander comes to the house later and finds Buffy. In tears, she admits her tryst with Spike. Xander tells Buffy he will not say anything to anyone.
- After this the events of the season play out like they did. Warren still shoots Tara and Buffy. Anya is not a demon since the marriage happened, and doesn't teleport all over the place. I always thought that was pretty dumb. She merely stays with Giles at the destroyed shop. Xander goes to the Magic Box to get rope to save Buffy and Dawn from the cemetery. Anya tells him to relay the message that Willow has gone to Proserpexa's Temple. He decides to go alone to stop Willow and everything else happens as it did. Spike still goes to get his soul, and Buffy and Dawn fight back to back.
I think some things in the Season needed to be re-arranged. Some things needed to be added and some things needed to be shortened, primarily the Spuffy time and Buffy depressed time. I have nothing against that ship, but it took time away from other things that I think were also important for the season's overall story. |
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The Night Lord
Wise-cracking Sidekick
The Long Kiss Goodnight
There can be no love. Only pain exists[Mo0:1]
Posts: 2,654
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Post by The Night Lord on Jun 17, 2009 4:39:26 GMT -5
Anyone wanna write a fic based on what Phil has wrote there? Sounds it'll make a very cool story. I'm a little swamped with my fics, so I'll pass. Some very interesting points there, Phil
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Post by henzINNIT on Jun 17, 2009 8:48:22 GMT -5
Wow never even looked in this thread till now. Such a heated debate...I'm bummed that AmbersKnight decided to delete his account due to disagreements. You may have stopped by before I rebranded it lol. I altered it to a dedicated Season 6 criticism thread in an attempt to cool off the other threads in the area. I thought a specicfic place where people could really vent without bringing down discussion would be useful, as some of us have some real issues about this controversial season. Thanks for contributing, you have some interesting ideas. I still don't like the drug addiction apsect, but it's way more interesting the way you have repackaged it. |
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Post by lightandmagic on Jun 17, 2009 15:27:05 GMT -5
Wow, Phil's version of season six is just so much better. I wish they had done that instead. Especially the Xander and Anya marriage actually happening. It never really made a whole lot of sense plot wise for them to break up other than the Whedon mantra of no happy relationships.
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Post by henzINNIT on Jun 17, 2009 16:45:45 GMT -5
Xander and Anya should have married. If Joss must have misery, why couldn't he go for new territory? Like the struggles of a newly married couple.
I think the marrige should have gone to hell, and when you think all is doomed, Xander and Anya sneak off somewhere to have their vows said some place more intimate. That moment of happiness would have made a lovely bright spot in an otherwise miserable year.
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Post by henzINNIT on Jun 25, 2009 5:51:57 GMT -5
I just watched the last 3 episodes again. Not actually THAT bad.
I didn't hate Willow as much, but the goth clothes are pretty cartoonic and unneccesary. "Super-bitch" and "Every square inch of your ass kicked" are god awful, but nothing else was particularly annoying.
The nerds were annoying though. Really annoying. All the lame dialogue in the "big house" was so pointless and distracting. And Spike's quest was a little too heroic for me, as if they were glorifying the actions of the attempted rapist. We could have hated him for a little bit longer.
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Post by iamthewalrus on Jun 25, 2009 11:06:40 GMT -5
I thought Vampire Willow was lame as hell, but it worked on a campy, what-if level. Magic-abusing Willow was "real" and should have been more than a goth chick saying "super-bitch" lawl omg yes Dark Willow sucks so much she could of been so badass |
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Post by Emmie on Jun 25, 2009 12:45:18 GMT -5
The rape issue was very much brushed under the table, who cares, lets not talk of it. And us fans are thinking WHAT!!! Just stake him already and be done with it. Raz, don't generalize please about other people's opinions. Speak for yourself.  As for the attempted rape issue, I see the whole thing as being a necessary plot device to get Spike to that heroic epic quest. Because THAT, the epic quest to get his soul, that was the goal all along. In fact, some writers argued against having Spike do the attempted rape - Jane Espenson was reportedly against it. The rape issue was breezed over a little, but no more than when Angel returned with a soul after murdering people for months or Willow coming back and trying to end the world. It was dealt with in Beneath You briefly and then they moved on. Because Buffy could see he was a different person. That's what all those lines meant - "I saw your penance." Spike led himself to get a soul which led to torment, guilt and insanity. So what? Now he needs to be murdered to make the score card even? I could see staking him if he was just hanging around again in Season 7 without a soul. It just means he wasn't trying to change and he never would. The thing to marvel at is that he felt enough emotion and guilt for a human being to subject himself to the torture to get a soul and the resulting torment that follows from having a soul. |
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Post by Emmie on Jun 25, 2009 13:49:58 GMT -5
Raz, I just meant speak for yourself in this. Because when I read that I went "um no we all don't think that". You could have also rephrased it to say "And many fans were like WHAT" and it would have worked better.
Willow did all this with a soul. Hardly comparable to two beings without any moral compass.
Spike didn't recover from his guilt within episodes. He still feels guilt even through Damage in AtS Season 5. The difference between Angel and Spike is that Spike is about appearance, about show. So he doesn't show his weakness of what he feels about himself to everyone - his guilt is a private matter. That's why it's displayed in subtle scenes like in Him where he looks at an angel figurine and turns it to face away from him.
Raz, again you're generalizing and in fact being judgmental. "Spuffy fans fly under a different radar". Please take more care. It's an impolite way to have a discussion when there are in fact many Spuffy fans around.
And funnily enough your generalization is wrong. I've seen many Spuffy fans who have problems with how the AR wasn't further explored and redeemed in Season 7. I think it's more a symptom of the writer's wanting to move on to the Now and let go of the Then. It was a very painful scene to write and a very painful scene to act. I personally view them as having dealt with it directly in Beneath You and then transmuted this to show that every action Spike takes in Season 7 leading up to him sacrificing his life to save the world, it's all done in penance for his past and most specifically how he hurt Buffy. The AR was the driving force of why he went to Africa and got his soul - so all that pain and torture and torment was self-inflicted penance. To say the AR wasn't dealt with when in fact it was the biggest motivation and turning point for Spike's character journey since his dream of loving Buffy in Out of My Mind - I feel it misses the point of the narrative tale.
And what of Buffy's penance for beating Spike down in Dead Things? She acted horribly during Season 6 to Spike also, but does that not matter because he was soulless then? That was never dealt with on the show. Not that I want to tear down Buffy, but I just wanted to show that sometimes the story needs to move forward and you can't wallow in the past actions.
Spike, after months of a violent sexual relationship with Buffy, loses control and loses touch with the situation and attempts to rape Buffy. Following this he is so consumed with guilt that he goes off to get his soul back so he'll "never hurt the girl" again. He suffers insanity, devotes himself to helping Buffy without getting in the way, and ultimately gives his life for her mission. It's a story of the battle between good and evil within a person, within Spike, and the light ultimately triumphing over the dark. This Light couldn't be more obvious than in Chosen as it literally bursts through him, seeking out the shadows, destroying the Turokhan and even himself.
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xaphania
Wise-cracking Techno Genius
[Mo0:0]
Posts: 705
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Post by xaphania on Jun 25, 2009 13:57:32 GMT -5
I read the last few posts earlier, and have been thinking about a reply. But I'm just going to nod and agree with all Emmie's said, because if I were to post my thoughts they'd pretty much echo hers. Except I'd probably ramble all over the place and not make my point as clearly XD
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Post by henzINNIT on Jun 25, 2009 15:18:54 GMT -5
I have no problem with how the rape incident was dealt with after season 6, but I didn't like how it was handled immediately afterward. The shots of Spike drinking and having troubling flashbacks? In the same episode as the attempted rape itself? Pfft RIDICULOUS. We don't want or need to sympathise with him at this point.
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