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Post by ambersknight on May 25, 2009 9:54:53 GMT -5
No you are right we will not agree on this.
What was terrible was they killed of a character that was still growing and still had potential for what I consider to be a sloppy re-hash of previous seasons' storylines. To call it "great" is not what I call it at all, in fact i would go as far as to call it the worst bit of television ever conceived.
And thee was no anger when Jenny died? Wasn't tara dying/Willow angrilly tracking down those repsonsible just re-hasing "Tough Love" but using "Passion" as a bit of a template? and as for losing someone we love in terrible circumstances beyond anyone's control, surely that was better achieved with the death of Joyce? I'm sorry, I really don't see your point of view, as you don't see mine.
We will agree to disagree and just leave it at that.
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Post by ambersknight on May 25, 2009 10:21:52 GMT -5
I've dealt with a lot of these in previous posts and such,and i don't really ahve anything new to add. We really are just gonna have to agree to differ  |
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rufio
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Post by rufio on May 25, 2009 10:23:59 GMT -5
Tara in Season 7 might've been amazing. Imagine if Willow AND tara did the spell in "Chosen" to activate the potential slayers? They might both be goddesses now in season 8. I loved Tara and obviously would like it if she had never gotten killed, but there are other factors. Contrary to popular opinion, Kennedy IS interesting. She and Willow have a totally different dynamic and it's cool to see Willow with a slayer (kind of crazy to think how Willow had always been fascinated by buffy and her slayer-ness and eventually she ends up with a slayer!)
But regarding taras death specifically, it's about a character arc. It's not like tara and willow are the only couple who've dealt with this situation-practically ever other couple on the show has. So the stupid 'lesbian death/evil unhappy ending' argument is baseless. Tara and Willow had been together for a good amount of time- and the way joss thinks is if everything is peaceful and happy, then it's boring. I don't agree 100%- I DO wish xander and anya got married, and the writers probably could've come up with more story for tara and willow for the rest of season six and seven. BUT this is part of their story! Willow was always supposed to go dark- even though it wasn't a complete disaster, it could've been done better- and i love the fact that she went dark. It was amazing to watch and after all those years-starting off so innocently doing spells- interesting and compelling.
The bullet killing tara makes sense-because she was such an earthy character-it contrasts well. We're talking about storytelling devices here. Taras death was necessary for Willows character growth afterwards.
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Post by ambersknight on May 25, 2009 10:37:37 GMT -5
I diagree completely rufio. on several issues which i am happy to debate with you if you wish but you ahve set your stall out as pretty unmoveable so it seems pretty pointless.
However, one of the things I disagree with about the whole bullet thing is the sheer improbability of it. Not being shot by the bullet, but the direction and all of that. Put simply, no way that bullet was going through that window, and certainly not at that angle. Now if Tara had been in the kitchen and had been shot by a stray bullet, then that would have been more sensible.
Still a sily way to end a story.
And i'm sorry, But I disagree completely with your claim that the "Dead/Evil lesbian" cliche is baseless. it is entirely meritable.
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rufio
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Post by rufio on May 25, 2009 11:42:26 GMT -5
how is the lesbian cliche meritable?  ? please tell me. look at buffys relationships-angel, parker, riley, spike, satsu-NONE have ended well. Look at Xanders- Willow (to an extent), Cordelia, Faith, Anya, Lissa, Renee-NONE have ended well. Look at Giles- Jenny, Olivia, Joyce-NONE have ended well. And just because tara and willow are lesbians means that lesbians never get happy endings?? Watch queer as folk, melanie and lindsey have a happy ending on that show. If anything, tara and willow were treated just like every other couple on the show and that's the way it should be- in real life too! I'm glad joss didn't treat them differently in that way. And I don't understand how the bullet couldn't have gone through the bedroom window? It's on the backside of the house and warren was still shooting aimlessly like a psychopath as he ran away after shooting buffy. Tara being in the kitchen would've made is more sensible? It's really not of great importance-and it makes sense being in the bedroom anyway. |
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Post by iamthewalrus on May 25, 2009 12:00:23 GMT -5
how is the lesbian cliche meritable? ? please tell me. look at buffys relationships-angel, parker, riley, spike, satsu-NONE have ended well. Look at Xanders- Willow (to an extent), Cordelia, Faith, Anya, Lissa, Renee-NONE have ended well. Look at Giles- Jenny, Olivia, Joyce-NONE have ended well. And just because tara and willow are lesbians means that lesbians never get happy endings?? Watch queer as folk, melanie and lindsey have a happy ending on that show. If anything, tara and willow were treated just like every other couple on the show and that's the way it should be- in real life too! I'm glad joss didn't treat them differently in that way. totally agree although i miss Tara  , and i never cared for the Dark Willow storyline THAT much |
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Post by ambersknight on May 25, 2009 12:02:18 GMT -5
Sorry evil willow, I cannot accept that Tara died for the greater good cos I cannot see what we got in season 6 as the greater good and never will.
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Post by ambersknight on May 25, 2009 12:07:16 GMT -5
It is meritable because the cliche is well defined. its not a case of killing of a lesbian (and I've made it clear that if the storyline had been strong enough then the death would ahve been justified) but it is a way of doing it. I wish i ahd the link to the actual FAQ on the cliche but having read it, and it was a cliche established before Buffy went on air, let alone when Willow and Tara were matched up, it fits entirely. The only question with the cliche is on intent. part of the cliche was the underlying intent to show lesbian relationships as terrible and destructive. Now I do not believe, but am not 100% sure, that the writers intended this so I don't think they fall into the intent part of the cliche but the rest is there. Plus they lose a few more points for having the freudian cliche of having Willow return to "normal" by having a guy say he loves her. that lost tons of both points and respect with me. As for the bullet, it was outrageous anfd their claim it showed the sheer randomness of shootings (a very noble ideal) is undermined by the sheer ludicrousness of it. having watched it again recently, it just looks terrible. Grissom couldn't figure that one out |
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stakey
Descendant of a Toaster Oven
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Post by stakey on May 25, 2009 12:10:36 GMT -5
Iv never really thought about it being a bad thing, the whole dead tara plot I mean, and have always thought it was a great twist to further the plot. When I first watched it and I was younger I was just like wooo evil willow thats cool.
But after numerous rewatches and growing up to develop more understanding of writing and plot development I do think it could have been handled better.
As you say, the whole magical addiction thing was badly handled, and again I think I would agree with you in that the drunk on power but aware of it but not wanting to turn her back on it, rather than being uncontrollably addicted to it, would have made for more interesting moments.
Especially if they did do some sort of dark willow finale, but not as cheesy, with Tara around to witness Willow being drunk on the power and completely abusing it in a far more extreme manner than she does earlier in the season but not as 'evil' as she does in the finale it could have made for interesting viewing.
I dunno if that actually made sense but in general I would say, I love season 6 and the evil willow is fun to watch but could have been dealt with on a far more mature and well structured level, especially if her downfall was gradual through-out ALL of season 6 rather than ending at Wrecked and then getting kick started again at the end of 'Seeing Red'.
Oh and another thing I agree with a few of you on, the acknowledgement of Taras death amongst the scoobs was just unexceptable....as you say, even frigging Cassie got more tears.
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Post by ambersknight on May 25, 2009 12:17:29 GMT -5
What I thought was going to happen before they changed stories mid-way through was that you would almost an "angel on your shoulder, devil on the other" idea (hackneyed I know but in the hands of skilled writers it could ahve paid off) with Tara being the angel and Amy being the devil. One trying to be the voice of reason and restraint but sounding too authoriatarian whilst Amy would be seductive not by giving Willow too much too soon but by just enabling her to go where she seemed she was going. It could ahve led to a very intense showdown not only between Buffy and Willow as Willow just gets too cocky for her own good and sees Buffy as possibly ungrateful for being brought back (another idea I actually thought they were going to run with but they didn't0 and also Amy and Tara squaring off. Could have been tense.
Strangely, in that set up, I could almost have accept3ed Tara's death as the catalyst that finally brings Willow to her senses. But what we got was so much less than what could ahve been.
Not saying my idea is in any way perfect, I'm js saying there was more than one way the season could have gone.
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rufio
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Post by rufio on May 25, 2009 12:18:35 GMT -5
the fact that xander is a male and brings willow back to normal after taras death doesn't have to do with his sex so much as his relationship with willow. He is her BEST friend-since they were kids. When he was telling her he loved her, it was as her best friend!! Trust me, i'm the first one to call out sexism and even the slightest bit of homophobia, but xanders penis had nothing to do with it lol.
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Post by ambersknight on May 25, 2009 12:21:36 GMT -5
I agree that Xander's presence is not sexual, its not the point I'm making. Its just that after hitting so many branches on their way down the cliche tree, it was a shame that the finale hit that branch as well. Plus the yellow crayon speech was just really dull. if it were not for the acting by Nick and Aly, it would have looked and sounded unbelievably cheesy.
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rufio
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Post by rufio on May 25, 2009 12:26:01 GMT -5
maybe it was a little cheesy, but it showed how close they are and how long they've been friends.
and i don't think they hit any kind of branch by xander saving willow-he was her best friend!! who else could've saved her?? buffy and giles both failed. how is her best friend telling her he loves her and saving her a cliche?? if it is, it surely isn't a bad one.
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Post by ambersknight on May 25, 2009 12:28:34 GMT -5
Its a freudian cliche, that lesbians can be made Normal by a guy saying he loves them. iadded it to my list as its not part of the main "Dead/Evil lesbian" cliche. I think its relevant in those terms. i actually have no problem with Xander doing the saving but to be honest, by the time it got to that point I cared so little about the story I couldn't have cared who saved her.
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Post by ambersknight on May 25, 2009 13:01:39 GMT -5
But that could have been done with equal dramatic style without the need for the death, hence my dismay.
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Post by ambersknight on May 25, 2009 13:20:37 GMT -5
Not necessarily. Depending on how they wrote it they could have had (I'll humour you and pretend for a moment that the addiction storyline was a legit one): Addicted Willow + life breaking down + sliding into deep addiction and petty crime + serious psycholiogical break + full scooby intervention + needing to go to England to learn control after being brought back dwon to Earth with a bump (several triggers for that) + Willow returns nervous and unwilling to use her power + Tara giving ehr confidence to use her power more wisely = tara aids her in ehr recovery and teaches her the Wiccan principles that Willow ahd been unwilling to listen to before = more rounded out Willow come season 7's end. Just a thought |
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Post by ambersknight on May 25, 2009 13:33:19 GMT -5
I know that's how it played out. But as you said, unless you buy the first step (the magic addiction) you end up with Willow + Tara's death = bloody pointless!
We could theroise, truth is it can't be changed, which is for my point of view, all the more disheartnening. What i presented to you was more a "well it could have been this" which if nothing else, shows it could have went a different way. And that, when it comes down to it, is the problem for me. it was a storyline that for me, could ahve been done in a different way with better results.
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Mathieu
Ensouled Vampire
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Post by Mathieu on May 25, 2009 13:40:46 GMT -5
Ambersknight (very telling name by the way), I think you just have to let it go!! You're being stubborn and probably blinded by the fact you worshipped Tara so much.
You can't even see an exciting twist where there was. Tara's death triggered one of the best final arcs of the show. Period. Far from perfect, but still oh so enjoyable.
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Post by ambersknight on May 25, 2009 13:40:49 GMT -5
Watched it and although i think it was an improvement on season 6 (in my eyes it wouldn't have taken much to be an improvement) I don't think it was much of an improvement.
if you want my breakdown of fave seasons from most to least its this: 3,4,5,2,1,7,6
Why do you ask?
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Post by ambersknight on May 25, 2009 13:43:11 GMT -5
I'm not being stubborn. if it was anexciting plot twist I'd agree with you but I don't see it as one. Jenny dying was a good plot twist. Even joyce's death had real resonance. But Tara's death made no sense dramatically. And its not stubborn-ness. I can't enjoy a plot twist just cos other people say i should.
Sorry you don't agree with me, but that's not really my problem or yours. We just see it different ways. We will just have to agree to differ.
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