Female sexual fluidity in the Buffyverse

[rogue11]

Some people have argued that Willow is a lesbian and some say she's bi because of her previous attractions to both Xander and Oz. But now there's an idea going around in society that sexuality lies on a broad sepctrum and there's this idea about fluidity in sexuality. So you dont have to be just a lesbian, or bi or gay but instead you can just be changing from liking guys to girls then to guys then to girls and so on.
Could this maybe be the case for Willow? Not to say that she's isn't a lesbian but maybe this could be a way of looking at it.

[Mathieu]

Jun 12, 2009 0:07:32 GMT -5 rogue11 said:

Some people have argued that Willow is a lesbian and some say she's bi because of her previous attractions to both Xander and Oz. But now there's an idea going around in society that sexuality lies on a broad sepctrum and there's this idea about fluidity in sexuality. So you dont have to be just a lesbian, or bi or gay but instead you can just be changing from liking guys to girls then to guys then to girls and so on.
Could this maybe be the case for Willow? Not to say that she's isn't a lesbian but maybe this could be a way of looking at it.

Agreed. But from my point view it is technically IMPOSSIBLE to consider Willow a lesbian considering that she used to have a crush on Xander her entire childhood / teenage life. Impossible. You don't just decide to stop being attracted to one gender. You may want to try something else and stick to it but it doesn't mean you switched sides completely. It doesn't make any sense.

[Hellbound Hyperion]

It's a known fact in psychology that women tend to be less concrete about their sexual orientation than men. That's why I find it easy to accept Buffy sleeping with Satsu after all the male relationships she's had. Willow just found more emotional strength in her female relationships than in her male ones (although I do agree with her sentiment in 4x19 "New Moon Rising" that Oz would always be a part of her), so she goes with the women. And I guess she gets a kind of thrill out of it (she asks Satsu how Buffy is in bed, remember ).

[Hallow Thorn]

I think of Willow as Bi and Buffy/ Satsu as a way to sell comics...

[iamthewalrus]

Jun 12, 2009 0:26:44 GMT -5 Mathieu said:

Agreed. But from my point view it is technically IMPOSSIBLE to consider Willow a lesbian considering that she used to have a crush on Xander her entire childhood / teenage life. Impossible. You don't just decide to stop being attracted to one gender. You may want to try something else and stick to it but it doesn't mean you switched sides completely. It doesn't make any sense.

i had a crush on my best friend all through our childhood, just like Willow did with Xander
back then i felt differently towards some girls, i just didn't know why
so it makes sense to me anyway

[vampmogs]

I think it’s more common for women to experiment with their sexuality than it is for men to. There’s less stigma for women to try it than there are men. Two female best friends will easily kiss each other at a party or something then two male best friends would. It’s unfortunate it’s so different for each gender but I do think it’s easier and more common for women.

Personally I’ve always viewed Willow as bisexual and don’t see why people get so offended that I don’t consider her a lesbian. I don’t consider her bisexual because I don’t want her to be a lesbian, I enjoyed both Satsu and Tara.. It’s just something I’ve concluded from watching the series. Willow was madly in love with both Xander and Oz, admits to having a crush on Giles (in s4 when she’s dating Tara at the time) and I always got the impression she had a little crush on Angel as well. She also admits to Buffy in Wild Things that she has lusty wrong feelings for other guys who aren’t Oz sometimes. So she clearly has the ability to be attracted to and love other men. She even leaves the door open for a possible reunion with Oz in the future in New Moon Rising. If she truly believed she was incapable of finding males sexually attractive again I don’t think she would have done that.

But we also have Vamp Willow who is clearly bisexual. She’s hitting on Xander one minute and then on Willow the next. I think that’s the biggest clue to what Willow actually is.

I think Willow would more or less consider herself gay now, but I do think she’s capable of falling in love with men still. She considered Vamp Willow “gay” even though we know she had a thing for Xander as well, so Willow doesn’t seem comfortable being “fluid.” I think she likes to consider herself either “straight” or “gay” as that’s just how her brain works.

In regards to Buffy… I wouldn’t even call her bisexual. Many women hook up with another woman but I doubt they consider themselves Bi. Buffy was still fantasising over Angel and Spike and thinking of only men in her “Anywhere But Here” fantasies. She’s still into men, IMO Satsu was a one off thing.

[Skytteflickan88]

I agree with this fluidity theory.

Not to piss people of, but lesbiansim, as well as hetroexuality, could probably just be a phase. Like a latex-fetish or something. You can like latex at one point at your life, but not in another.

Maybe Willow is a hundred per cent gay now, but she wasn't always. And maybe, when meeting Oz, her gayness will change.

There's no reason to label her yet. (Although I usually call her a bi in denial of her latent straight-ness.)

[wenxina]

Willow identifies with being "gay" now, not because she disregards the feelings she ever had for Xander and Oz, but because based on the whole "sexuality is fluid" deal, she now only exclusively likes girls. Hence, the "gay" bit. For her to be truly bisexual in this paradigm, she would have to be attracted to both men and women at the same time, something which she hasn't shown a tendency for since after she made up her mind that Tara was the one for her at that time, and not Oz. Even when confronted with the fact that football jacket boy was indeed a boy, Willow doesn't just say "Oh, well, I like boys too." Instead, she tried to turn him into a girl. So in the context of the whole fluid sexuality theory, Willow is indeed "gay". That is until she displays attraction to men again, which many have speculated may be seen in the upcoming "Retreat" arc.

Now Vamp Willow... that one can be argued to be bisexual.

[AndrewCrossett]

Sexual fluidity doesn't mean that everyone is sexually fluid all the time. Some people make a choice and stick with it. Some peope change that choice during their lives, and stick with it.

Willow identifies as a lesbian now. Evidence suggests she's still capable of appreciating male sexual attractiveness, but to say that stops her from being a lesbian imposes too strict a definition on the term, IMO.

If you want to define things as:

Homosexual: Willing to have sex only with members of the same sex
Bisexual: Willing to have sex with members of either sex
Heterosexual: Willing to have sex only with members of the opposite sex,

then Willow is a lesbian and Buffy is a bisexual.

If you believe that people have the right to define their own sexuality, then Willow is a lesbian and Buffy is a heterosexual with one exception.

[Mathieu]

Jun 12, 2009 8:53:54 GMT -5 AndrewCrossett said:

Sexual fluidity doesn't mean that everyone is sexually fluid all the time. Some people make a choice and stick with it. Some peope change that choice during their lives, and stick with it.

Willow identifies as a lesbian now. Evidence suggests she's still capable of appreciating male sexual attractiveness, but to say that stops her from being a lesbian imposes too strict a definition on the term, IMO.

If you want to define things as:

Homosexual: Willing to have sex only with members of the same sex
Bisexual: Willing to have sex with members of either sex
Heterosexual: Willing to have sex only with members of the opposite sex,

then Willow is a lesbian and Buffy is a bisexual.

If you believe that people have the right to define their own sexuality, then Willow is a lesbian and Buffy is a heterosexual with one exception.

Couldn't disagree more.

You don't choose or define your sexuality, you only choose your partners. Lately Willow has made clear that she'd rather be with girls. The fact that she's had a crush on so many guys in her life shows that she never was a hundred per cent a lesbian. She likes both guys and girls, making her bisexual, but she decided to stick with girls for now.

It is so simple and crystal clear to me. I don't see why some people can't come to terms with this idea.

Being gay is not a concept. You don't decide to label yourself as gay for the fun of it. Being gay or bisexual (or even heterosexual) is something you have to live with because you can't change what you feel and what gender(s) you are attracted to.

[wenxina]

mathieu: Your understanding of sexuality here is more akin to the older paradigm than the fluid concept. By that paradigm, Willow clearly has to be bisexual, since at one point or another, she's shown inclinations towards either sex. But was she attracted to women back in the first 3 seasons? By the older paradigm, quite probably, since as you stated, you can't choose your sexuality. However, since we're talking about the fluid paradigm here, it's well... less rigid and more fluid. In other words, one's inclinations, and therefore sexual orientation may change over time. Which may make it easier to accept Willow's change in sexual orientation: she identified as straight the first 3 seasons, and then identified as gay afterwards. Now, if Oz comes back in and changes things, and she's both attracted to Oz and Kennedy, she can then identify herself as bisexual.
Understand that these are just paradigms; frameworks that are formulated based on years/decades of research to best explain data. In a few years, the fluid sexuality paradigm may be entirely obsolete, if data suggests otherwise. Therefore, since they're paradigms, not everyone's personal experiences may fit in there nicely.

[Mathieu]

Jun 12, 2009 10:08:02 GMT -5 wenxina said:

mathieu: Your understanding of sexuality here is more akin to the older paradigm than the fluid concept. By that paradigm, Willow clearly has to be bisexual, since at one point or another, she's shown inclinations towards either sex. But was she attracted to women back in the first 3 seasons? By the older paradigm, quite probably, since as you stated, you can't choose your sexuality. However, since we're talking about the fluid paradigm here, it's well... less rigid and more fluid. In other words, one's inclinations, and therefore sexual orientation may change over time. Which may make it easier to accept Willow's change in sexual orientation: she identified as straight the first 3 seasons, and then identified as gay afterwards. Now, if Oz comes back in and changes things, and she's both attracted to Oz and Kennedy, she can then identify herself as bisexual.
Understand that these are just paradigms; frameworks that are formulated based on years/decades of research to best explain data. In a few years, the fluid sexuality paradigm may be entirely obsolete, if data suggests otherwise. Therefore, since they're paradigms, not everyone's personal experiences may fit in there nicely.

Thanks Wenxina for your explanation. You should totally be Member of the Month for always posting insightful arguments and thourough analyses.

That being said, can I just disagree with the fluid sexuality paradigm?

Because I really don't see how you can choose to not be attracted to a gender anymore.

Since I was a kid I always knew I liked both guys and girls and that will never change until the day I die. I might decide to stick to girls for a bunch of reasons but it doesn't change who I am. The only thing I believe in is the Kinsey scale.

[wenxina]

Jun 12, 2009 10:21:00 GMT -5 Mathieu said:

That being said, can I just disagree with the fluid sexuality paradigm.

First, I'd like to state that I'm no expert on human sexuality, and psychology is something that's entirely out of my scope, aside from some rather rudimentary Psych 101 stuff. So I hope I'm accurately stating the case for the fluid sexuality paradigm. That said, you're free to disagree with the paradigm. I'm sure plenty of experts dispute it too... psych is way too sticky for there not to be dissenters.

[Mathieu]

Jun 12, 2009 10:27:43 GMT -5 wenxina said:

Jun 12, 2009 10:21:00 GMT -5 Mathieu said:

That being said, can I just disagree with the fluid sexuality paradigm.

First, I'd like to state that I'm no expert on human sexuality, and psychology is something that's entirely out of my scope, aside from some rather rudimentary Psych 101 stuff. So I hope I'm accurately stating the case for the fluid sexuality paradigm. That said, you're free to disagree with the paradigm. I'm sure plenty of experts dispute it too... psych is way too sticky for there not to be dissenters.

Human psychology will probably be debated until the end of times. I don't think it's an exact science, there is no rigorous way to prove one point or another for the reason that everybody is different and reacts differently.

I personally believe sexuality is not fluid because I don't think mine will ever change, but who knows? I might have a different opinion twenty years from now.

Some other people here seem to believe you can decide to go from being bisexual to being gay. Maybe it's based on their own experience too. Although I'd like to know if they know anyone who suddenly stopped being attracted to either gender completely, just like this, other than the ficticious TV characters we're talking about (these characters being invented and developed by writers who have their own opinion on the subject).

[AndrewCrossett]

Whether any of us agree with the sexual fluidity paradigm (and I have some issues with it), it's a matter of fact that Joss does believe in it.

By that standard neither Willow's switch to lesbianism or Buffy's suddenly having sex with a woman are implausible.

Willow has recently stated outright that she's not interested in men now. That could change, maybe she'll feel some of the old attraction to Oz. Then it becomes a question of whether she'd be interested in, or willing to, cheat on Kennedy, or if he in any way still returns the attraction after all these years. From the hints both Scott Allie and Georges Jeanty have dropped, I don't think a return to Willow/Oz is in the cards.

[wenxina]

Jun 12, 2009 10:39:25 GMT -5 Mathieu said:

Some other people here seem to believe you can decide to go from being bisexual to being gay. Maybe it's based on their own experience too. Although I'd like to know if they know anyone who suddenly stopped being attracted to either gender completely, just like this, other than the ficticious TV characters we're talking about (these characters being invented and developed by writers who have their own opinion on the subject).

*raises hand* When I was 5, I was convinced I was either going to marry my kindergarten teacher, or my classmate. Both were female. However, I remember always being more fascinated by men, even then. Then 11 swung around... and I pretty much knew that I'd renounce the world of women (sexually, that is). Dabbled since, doesn't do much for me. I identify as gay. So the fluid paradigm does kinda work for me. But it's personal experience, so I don't hold everyone to the same framework.

[Just Willow]

well, to quote David Fury on teh subject:

"Willow didn't turn gay. She just fell in love with someone who happened to be of the same gender."

i agree with the spectrum idea.

[Glósóli]

I don't completely believe in the sexual fluidity thing; I do understand that in certain moments in your life, you might want to try something different for different reasons, but I believe that we are born with a somewhat rigid sexual orientation (that is defined in pregnancy), and that it may change just a little bit because of enviromental factors during our childhood. I don't think that Willow could have gone from 100% straight to completely lesbian in real life.

But we need to understand that Willow is a fictional character, and the writers of the show decided to turn her gay, so she is gay (at least that is how I see her). If she can fly, bring the dead back to life, prevent and cause and apocalypse, and live 200+ years to bring someone back from the past to kill her, she sure can change her sexual orientation.

[AndrewCrossett]

Jun 12, 2009 13:51:09 GMT -5 Just Willow said:

well, to quote David Fury on teh subject:

"Willow didn't turn gay. She just fell in love with someone who happened to be of the same gender."

Nevertheless, she has clearly, repeatedly and consistently identified herself as gay since that time. After Tara died Willow showed no sign of resuming an interest in men, and when she fell in love again it was with another woman. So, I'm accepting Willow as the best authority on her own sexuality.

Considering how inspiring she's been to lesbians, I think Joss will be content to leave her that way.

"I don't truck with the stubbly crowd." --Willow, The Long Way Home

[Glósóli]

Jun 12, 2009 15:00:31 GMT -5 AndrewCrossett said:

Jun 12, 2009 13:51:09 GMT -5 Just Willow said:

well, to quote David Fury on teh subject:

"Willow didn't turn gay. She just fell in love with someone who happened to be of the same gender."

Nevertheless, she has clearly, repeatedly and consistently identified herself as gay since that time. After Tara died Willow showed no sign of resuming an interest in men, and when she fell in love again it was with another woman. So, I'm accepting Willow as the best authority on her own sexuality.

Considering how inspiring she's been to lesbians, I think Joss will be content to leave her that way.

"I don't truck with the stubbly crowd." --Willow, The Long Way Home

Not only to lesbians. I, as a gay man, find her very inspiring, and consider her one of the best LGBT characters ever created.