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Post by joxerlives on Dec 21, 2009 16:25:23 GMT -5
Ah, the hardy old perenial comes around once again!
Ok, Willow defines herself as a gay woman and has done so repeatedly. I think we should all respect that but then again for the first 19 years of her life she defined herself as straight woman. The hints to her bisexuality are numerous in my opinion, too numerous to list here (have a look at the episode by epsiode reviews on the Buffytube part of the forum if you want the examples, one of the the categories is 'Will; gay or bi' and we're just about up to the appearance of Kennedy).
Do I believe women's sexuality is more fluid than men's? Yes I do. Psychologists point out that women are taught it's ok to be physically intimate with another woman literally from the moment they're born. A newborn baby breastfeeds, bonds and prefers its' mother's face to any other from the first day of life. A girls affection for her father is something she learns growing up. Perhaps why men are so obsessed with women, much more so than women appear to be with them?
Society finds it much more acceptable for women to physically display affection for one another and lesbianism was never illegal (and not because of Queen Victoria although yes, I've heard the story). And there's less of a stigma attached to it, for a man to be homosexuality is somehow seen to make him less 'manly' (although the captain of the British Lions rugby team recently came out!). A woman is not thought any less of a woman because she's gay. Of course at a more basic level I've never met the straight guy, however homophobic who didn't like the idea of two (or more) women together. Just as I've never met the racist white guy who would turn down Beyonce/Rhianna/Halle Berry etc
To go back to Willow I think Joss has painted himself into a corner in terms of her sexuality. He's stated that he didn't want Willow to go back to dating guys as this would suggest that Tara was some form of experimental phase so that's why we had Kennedy. And apparently he thought that in America 'bi-sexual' is a phrase normally associated with porn-stars (how true is that? I don't buy it personally).
Now of course then we have Buffy and Satsu. Do we consider Buffy as bi? If the definition is someone who has had sex with both men and women then both fit the bill. However I seem to remember an issue of the Buffy comic where Kennedy goes to see Satsu in Japan and informs her that she was just Buffy's Katy Perry moment (and rather unsubtly rams the point home again and again). I rather expected better of this series
So to sum up;
1. I think we should simply accept peoples sexuality as however they wish to define it, it's their perogative
2. I think both Buffy and Willow qualify as bi
3. I think yes, womens sexuality can be extremely fluid, much more so than mens.
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Kara
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Post by Kara on Dec 21, 2009 16:54:58 GMT -5
ruh rohhh this thread feels kinda familiarr....
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Post by wenxina on Dec 21, 2009 18:06:49 GMT -5
1. I think we should simply accept peoples sexuality as however they wish to define it, it's their perogative 2. I think both Buffy and Willow qualify as bi Aren't those two points counter-intuitive, since the first point says that we should respect the wishes of the people in question? And apparently he thought that in America 'bi-sexual' is a phrase normally associated with porn-stars (how true is that? I don't buy it personally). And secondly, can we please get a quote from where Joss said that he thought that bisexuality was a term associated with porn stars? |
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The Girl In Question
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Post by The Girl In Question on Dec 21, 2009 20:47:25 GMT -5
Willow identifies with being "gay" now, not because she disregards the feelings she ever had for Xander and Oz, but because based on the whole "sexuality is fluid" deal, she now only exclusively likes girls. Hence, the "gay" bit. For her to be truly bisexual in this paradigm, she would have to be attracted to both men and women at the same time, something which she hasn't shown a tendency for since after she made up her mind that Tara was the one for her at that time, and not Oz. Even when confronted with the fact that football jacket boy was indeed a boy, Willow doesn't just say "Oh, well, I like boys too." Instead, she tried to turn him into a girl. So in the context of the whole fluid sexuality theory, Willow is indeed "gay". That is until she displays attraction to men again, which many have speculated may be seen in the upcoming "Retreat" arc. Now Vamp Willow... that one can be argued to be bisexual. In the episode "Him" I did not take Willow trying to make him a woman as her more or less saying "I want him to be a girl because I only like women." I thought she did it because she knew the other women weren't attracted to women, so if she turned RJ into a girl, she would be the only one that still wanted him. And as for my opnion on Willow's sexuality: In the early seasons she was straight IMO, and in seasons 4 and 5 I believe she was bi. In the present she is a woman who very much prefers women but would date a man if he was the one for her, IMO. |
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Post by thisyearsgirl91 on Dec 21, 2009 21:57:17 GMT -5
Why would women suddenly stop lusting after RJ because he was a girl? The magic was in the jacket and as far as we know, that doesn't just stop because of a gender swap.
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The Girl In Question
Ensouled Vampire
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"It eats you starting with your bottom."[Mo0:33]
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Post by The Girl In Question on Dec 21, 2009 22:39:55 GMT -5
Why would women suddenly stop lusting after RJ because he was a girl? The magic was in the jacket and as far as we know, that doesn't just stop because of a gender swap. I'm saying that was probably Willow's logic. And Anya did seem quite the upset when she gave Willow the idea. I'm sure Anya would not have been pleased if RJ became a woman. |
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Post by thisyearsgirl91 on Dec 21, 2009 22:44:44 GMT -5
Why would women suddenly stop lusting after RJ because he was a girl? The magic was in the jacket and as far as we know, that doesn't just stop because of a gender swap. I'm saying that was probably Willow's logic. And Anya did seem quite the upset when she gave Willow the idea. I'm sure Anya would not have been pleased if RJ became a woman. Since girls (well Dawn) were willingly killing themselves for the dude, I don't think gender would have phased them. |
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The Girl In Question
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"It eats you starting with your bottom."[Mo0:33]
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Post by The Girl In Question on Dec 22, 2009 1:05:51 GMT -5
I'm saying that was probably Willow's logic. And Anya did seem quite the upset when she gave Willow the idea. I'm sure Anya would not have been pleased if RJ became a woman. Since girls (well Dawn) were willingly killing themselves for the dude, I don't think gender would have phased them. Frankly, I don't know how Willow turning RJ into a woman would prove that she loves him more than they do, unless turning him into a woman would make the others unattracted to him. And Willow was trying to prove that she loved him the most by turning him into a woman. |
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jamdis
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Post by jamdis on Dec 22, 2009 1:10:17 GMT -5
I'm new to these forums, but I'd like to chime in here, because I think Willow's sexuality reflects part of what I find so compelling about Buffy.
That is, Buffy is not a feature film. (stay with me here) The conventional wisdom is that self-contained stories are superior to ongoing ones. Movies are supposed to be better than TV shows, graphic novels more mature that comic series, even movie sequels are generally regarded as crass exploitation of more authentic original stories.
The problem is that real life doesn't feel much like a three act structure. Or, rather it does, but as soon as you get to the end (happy or otherwise), it starts all over again with a new set of conflicts. Buffy's notion of the "plural of apocalypse" is a powerful and moving expression of this. Every challenge feels like the ultimate one... until it's over and the next one begins. Each character constantly being challenged to re-evaluate everything.
So. Willow was straight. She's now gay, and always has been. There is no inherent contradiction in this. Sexuality is fluid because identity is fluid, and identity is fluid because the world is. You can call it bad or inconsistent writing, but I'm a bad and inconsistent author of myself. Willow is no different and that is kinda why the show is so good.
Also: I'm sensitive to the criticism that "fluid sexuality" implies "choice" or "preference" over "orientation." However, I don't think it does. Fluidity does not have to mean free will (pun intended). It's more like: change happens. What are you going to try to do about it?
Also also: For what its worth, I think you should always take someone's word for their own sexuality. Even if the person comes to agree with your assessment later, this still puts you in the position of claiming to understand the workings of someone else's internal stuff better than they do. It's about the most dickish thing you can do. This goes for gender too.
Also also also: Is female sexuality more fluid than men's? I don't know, but I'm suspicious that this idea may be influenced by a Penthouse Forum mentality.
And Finally: The issue of the enchanted jacket is an interesting footnote to all of this. Makes me wonder: what would a transgendered character look like in the buffyverse? The idea of fake magic love versus real love that comes up a couple times in Buffy kinda contradicts everything I just said. Is magically influenced love always inherently inauthentic? If I'm under a love spell for 50 years and live happily with my unethically magical partner does this still not count as real love?
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Post by joxerlives on Dec 22, 2009 9:02:56 GMT -5
1. I think we should simply accept peoples sexuality as however they wish to define it, it's their perogative 2. I think both Buffy and Willow qualify as bi Aren't those two points counter-intuitive, since the first point says that we should respect the wishes of the people in question? And apparently he thought that in America 'bi-sexual' is a phrase normally associated with porn-stars (how true is that? I don't buy it personally). And secondly, can we please get a quote from where Joss said that he thought that bisexuality was a term associated with porn stars? The two aren't necessarily counter intuitive. Will thinks of herself as gay, Buffy still thinks of herself as straight. Now the evidence would say otherwise it would suggest they're both bi, they've had sex with men and women (and vampires and demons) but it's no one's right to say so, however they would define themselves is what we should accept. You could say they're both in a state of Joycean denial but that's their choice and we shouldn't have a problem with it. The Joss quote is in Keith Toppings book Slayer, unfortunately I've given my copy away as part of my 12 step detox programme for my Buffy addiction so if anyone else has one please look it up for me. |
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Post by wenxina on Dec 22, 2009 9:53:59 GMT -5
he two aren't necessarily counter intuitive. Will thinks of herself as gay, Buffy still thinks of herself as straight. Now the evidence would say otherwise it would suggest they're both bi, they've had sex with men and women (and vampires and demons) but it's no one's right to say so, however they would define themselves is what we should accept. You could say they're both in a state of Joycean denial but that's their choice and we shouldn't have a problem with it. But there lies the crux of the problem. What you and many others are saying here is that you know these characters/people better than they do. It's implicit in the word "denial" as well as the evidence to the contrary that you provided. The evidence points towards bisexuality in the classical paradigm. In the fluid paradigm, as long as they're not attracted to both sexes at the same time, they're can choose to either identify as straight or gay. Willow identifies as gay. Buffy... well, I don't think she's quite thought about that for a while now. But you're right about the bit where we shouldn't have a problem with whatever label they pick. Joss and Co. are writing within the confines of the fluid paradigm, and so Willow is "gay" now, because she identifies as such, and not because she's never ever been attracted to men. |
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Post by harmindervamp on Dec 22, 2009 16:24:37 GMT -5
I love this conversation. I'm gay and i like gays but i'm only attracted to very few guys. And i also like talking about what girls i think are hot and one day i would like to have a sexual relationship with a real hot girl just to experiment. does that make me bisexual because really i like guys more but i don't see myself being with a girl in a proper relationship. It's like when i see Beyonce's music video for video phone, i just can't keep my eyes off her body.
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Post by thisyearsgirl91 on Dec 22, 2009 17:15:02 GMT -5
Since girls (well Dawn) were willingly killing themselves for the dude, I don't think gender would have phased them. Frankly, I don't know how Willow turning RJ into a woman would prove that she loves him more than they do, unless turning him into a woman would make the others unattracted to him. And Willow was trying to prove that she loved him the most by turning him into a woman. Why would it work? These girls were willing to do anything for him and you think that switching his sex would change it? It was a spell. Willow was into girls, so she was going to change him into a girl. |
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Post by Rebecca on Dec 22, 2009 17:38:23 GMT -5
Frankly, I don't know how Willow turning RJ into a woman would prove that she loves him more than they do, unless turning him into a woman would make the others unattracted to him. And Willow was trying to prove that she loved him the most by turning him into a woman. Why would it work? These girls were willing to do anything for him and you think that switching his sex would change it? It was a spell. Willow was into girls, so she was going to change him into a girl. Interesting to note, the jacket spell worked in binary sexual orientation. Women fell madly in love with him, however men were either unaffected or made jealous (the episode was kinda fuzzy on that). Willow wasn't really thinking logically, most likely as a side effect of the spell. Had Willow successfully turned RJ into a woman, the spell probably would have reversed and men would have fought for girl-RJ and the women (Willow included) would have gotten out of the spell. My personal opinion on sexual fluidity (gender aside) is your orientation is what it is when it is and how you say it is. Just because Willow considers herself gay now doesn't mean that she considered herself gay back in high school. Your orientation at the moment doesn't define your orientation at any other point in your life. |
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Post by thisyearsgirl91 on Dec 22, 2009 18:08:31 GMT -5
Why would it work? These girls were willing to do anything for him and you think that switching his sex would change it? It was a spell. Willow was into girls, so she was going to change him into a girl. Interesting to note, the jacket spell worked in binary sexual orientation. Women fell madly in love with him, however men were either unaffected or made jealous (the episode was kinda fuzzy on that). Willow wasn't really thinking logically, most likely as a side effect of the spell. Had Willow successfully turned RJ into a woman, the spell probably would have reversed and men would have fought for girl-RJ and the women (Willow included) would have gotten out of the spell. My personal opinion on sexual fluidity (gender aside) is your orientation is what it is when it is and how you say it is. Just because Willow considers herself gay now doesn't mean that she considered herself gay back in high school. Your orientation at the moment doesn't define your orientation at any other point in your life. Maybe it was aimed to work at women. I don't think that switching RJ's sexuality would suddenly change the power of the jacket. Willow probably didn't consider herself anything in high school. I doubt she often thought 'Well I'm straight'. |
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The Girl In Question
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"It eats you starting with your bottom."[Mo0:33]
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Post by The Girl In Question on Dec 22, 2009 18:49:06 GMT -5
Frankly, I don't know how Willow turning RJ into a woman would prove that she loves him more than they do, unless turning him into a woman would make the others unattracted to him. And Willow was trying to prove that she loved him the most by turning him into a woman. Why would it work? These girls were willing to do anything for him and you think that switching his sex would change it? It was a spell. Willow was into girls, so she was going to change him into a girl. Willow said specifically at least twice that she was going to change RJ into a girl to prove that she loved him the most. In that respect, turning him into girl would have made the others unattracted to him. At least that's how Willow saw it. Yeah, Willow is attracted to women, but that is not why she was going to change RJ into one. At least not the primary reason IMO. |
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Post by thisyearsgirl91 on Dec 22, 2009 20:51:04 GMT -5
Why would it work? These girls were willing to do anything for him and you think that switching his sex would change it? It was a spell. Willow was into girls, so she was going to change him into a girl. Willow said specifically at least twice that she was going to change RJ into a girl to prove that she loved him the most. In that respect, turning him into girl would have made the others unattracted to him. At least that's how Willow saw it. Yeah, Willow is attracted to women, but that is not why she was going to change RJ into one. At least not the primary reason IMO. There's no connection between proving that she loved him the most and making him unattractive to other girls. Again, there's nothing that proves turning him into a girl would suddenly break the spell he holds on girls. |
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Post by Emmie on Dec 22, 2009 21:12:53 GMT -5
Willow said specifically at least twice that she was going to change RJ into a girl to prove that she loved him the most. In that respect, turning him into girl would have made the others unattracted to him. At least that's how Willow saw it. Yeah, Willow is attracted to women, but that is not why she was going to change RJ into one. At least not the primary reason IMO. There's no connection between proving that she loved him the most and making him unattractive to other girls. Again, there's nothing that proves turning him into a girl would suddenly break the spell he holds on girls. Actually, it's odd but now I see a glaring problem. Is the coat specifically deisgned to make women attracted to the man who wears it? What would have happened if a woman had worn the coat? Does it only affect the opposite sex of the coat wearer? Because Willow is very much a lesbian. So it's nothing to do with sexual orientation. If it weren't, then Xander should have been just as affected by the spell - since both Xander and Willow aren't so much into men. (Though some slashers would argue otherwise) The actual spell on the jacket is left mysterious. But I'm betting it was made specifically for a man to wear so that he could get all the women to love him. Kinda like Xander's spell in Bewitched, Bothered and Bewildered. (Sidebar: Him and Bewitched, Bothered and Bewildered demonstrate another example of the Buffyverse using original phlebotinum to explore a similar idea - all women going ga-ga over a guy for magic. AHEM.) |
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Post by wickedgoodwillow on Dec 23, 2009 0:28:17 GMT -5
Willow is a lesbian. Get over it if you have a problem. Its been how many years now and you are still trying to hold on to the fact that before she developed fully as a sexual person she was attracted to two guys. Sorry she is just gay!!!!!!!!!!!
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Post by Emmie on Dec 23, 2009 0:59:15 GMT -5
Willow is a lesbian. Get over it if you have a problem. Its been how many years now and you are still trying to hold on to the fact that before she developed fully as a sexual person she was attracted to two guys. Sorry she is just gay!!!!!!!!!!! Was this in response to my post? Because if so, where did you anything from that where I said Willow wasn't a lesbian...? If you're responding to someone directly, it's best to either quote them or include their name in your response. Now whether you were speaking to me or not, do not tell members on this forum to "get over it". Everyone here is allowed to have their own viewpoint. Doing your part as a member means respecting their right to have their own opinion, not ordering them to align their thoughts with your own. You're welcome to disagree with any and even everyone, but please respect other members. Thanks.  |
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