Female sexual fluidity in the Buffyverse

[Nicholas]

I 100% agree with fluid sexuality. That is why majority of the time, I dont like labeling whether or not someone is gay/bi/straight simply because I believe that sexuality tastes can change. The only difference is, I believe that sometimes, terms are used simply to make things easier to understand. Myself, I grew up being attracted to both genders, but there has been many times within my own life where for a period of time I am more so attracted to females, and sometimes where I am more so attracted to men. I think it can drastically change over time or can stay the same. So when someone asks me what I am, I explain the whole fluid thing. But if I am short on time, then I will just say bisexual, simply because its easier.

Now, if we look at Willow, she has not been gay her whole life. She clearly has had numerous romantic feelings toward men: Oz, Xander, Angel, Giles, she talked about how good looking Riley was, the idea of Malcolm, and even the guy from Him. Now many argue that she wasnt actually attracted to him considering she tried to change him into a girl, but she was attracted to him before the idea was brought up by Anya. And there would be an inconsistancy by the writers, if David Fury can she she didnt turn gay, she just fell in love with a woman, then the whole premise of her in the episode Him, wouldnt be valid. She isnt just attracted to vaginas. And if they guy had a vagina, he would still have the rest of the body of a man.

The only thing is, Willow seems to be more attracted to women right now, so therefore she identifies herself as gay. Do I believe she will always be with a woman? Maybe, but with Oz coming back and my dislike for Kennedy, hopefully not.

[Just Willow]

Agree^^

[AndrewCrossett]

Scott and Georges have just about come out and told us Willow and Oz won't be getting back together.

But that doesn't mean she and Kennedy will continue together... I have a feeling the Saga Vasuki thing is going to cause trouble sooner or later.

[Just Willow]

me too. or at least i hope. i hate Kennedy. plus, to let the Saga Vasuki thing slide would be very not Joss. he likes to stir things up a bit, so i'm sure that's what'll happen.

[rogue11]

Wenxina, I have similar experiences from my childhood except it was the co-op student in grade 2.
Glósóli i agree I'm a guy who likes other guys and yet Willow has been a great character to relate to for the entire lesbian, gay and bi community.
I love discussing sexuality on here, I think its such a complex area to explore.
Well I think the whole fluidity thing makes it harder for a person to understand themselves, unless they're comfortable with saying they sometimes change their mind on what it is that they are attracted to.
I know people are saying that Willow is not a complete lesbian because of past incidents, but I'd like to relate Willow's story to mine. When i was younger I believed that i was attracted to women. I had a crush on certain girls growing up and I remember at one point i had a crush on Sarah Michelle Gellar. But for as long as i can remember I have felt some sort of attraction to men.
With the females I think I just liked the idea of being with them sort of how maybe Willow liked the idea of being with Xander and Oz, but I never really connected with girls as anything more than friends. When i realized I like guys I looked back at the girls I liked and wondered what it was that I saw in them, I knew that if I ever had a chance to be with them I would have to change who I am, I wouldn't be able to just be myself.
When you look at Willow's relationship with Oz, she wasn't as strong and confident as she was with Tara, she still was a bit reserved and shy. She may have just liked the idea of being with Xander, the old Willow liked Xander but then she realized she liked girls so she may not have really had authentic feelings for these guys, it could have just been that she thought that she knew what she wanted.
When I realized that i like guys i felt a sort of liberation, like i finally understood more of myself and the girls I liked in the past were just infatuations.
Willow wanted to turn that guy into a woman in the episode HIM, so he would have had the complete anatomy of a man and she only said she hot hot feelings for Angel to make Buffy feel any sort of emotion, like jealousy.
Her relationship with Oz lacked something, if it was really that strong, werewolf hormones aside, he wouldn't have cheated on her with the she wolf.
Willow could have had confused feelings for Xander but he couldn't return them, the two of them together were not able to be a romantic couple. and as for vamp willow, she existed at the same time as season three willow, we never saw her in season four so maybe vamp willow decided a year later that she's really into women, she already started the curiosity before sunnydale Willow.
I personally find that you can find a place of belonginess when you label yourself, but again not everyone does that. But Willow did, with Tara when the watchers were intereviewing them right?

[Nicholas]

You cant say that Willow was confused back when she was with Oz and Xander though, because that completely is a smack in the face to the relationships that the two had and its basically saying they didnt mean anything. Willow HAD for a FACT sexual feelings towards men. She just prefers women so therefore she calls herself gay now.

However, saying that Willow wasnt strong and confident with Oz is kinda of crap as well, considering as soon as she got with Oz, she had a drastic change in character. She just continued becoming stronger with her sexual attraction to women now in the open, but to me, Willow becoming more and more confident and strong was just a major turning point in her storyline about magic abuse. She kept getting more and more confident, but didnt stop and became an addict.

[rogue11]

IF she was confused or whatever during her attractions to Xander and Oz, that doesn't make them any less important to her growth as an individual and that doesn't mean that they didn't mean anything. I've thought I was attracted to girls in the past but that still helped shape who I am today.
With Oz, Willow was the one who needed to be held, but with Tara, Willow wasn't as shy or reserved. You can say it was her development as a powerful Wicca that lead to her confidence. But in season 7 she was a more powerful Wicca than in season 6 and yet in season 7 Willow seemed a lot more withdrawn in her relationship with Kennedy. There's a seperation bewteen the wicca apect of her and the lesbian side.

[wenxina]

Btw, why is this thread only specifically addressing female sexual fluidity? I mean, I understand that there haven't really been any prominent homosexual/bisexual male character (Andrew doesn't count until he's officially outed), but the whole sexual fluidity concept isn't exclusive to females.

[rogue11]

It doesn't have to address just female fluidity, I just made that the topic because i wanted to relate it to Willow because this site is all about the whedonverse and I didn't know which male characters to involve. But the same can be said for any gay/bi characters, if you wanted to talk about males alright.

[pirateangel84]

i know this is way off topic here but i hope this is rogue11 from evony because this is pirateangel84 from evony and if you are who i hope you are i need you to log in to evony PLEASE just for a minute!!!

[rogue11]

sorry I never used evony before.

[buffyfan21]

Although Willow has said that she is gay, I tend to think of her more as bi, if anything. She was once attracted to males and I'm sure still retains some of that attraction. It's not like you can just turn it on and off like a switch.

[AndrewCrossett]

Jun 22, 2009 12:16:30 GMT -5 buffyfan21 said:

Although Willow has said that she is gay, I tend to think of her more as bi, if anything. She was once attracted to males and I'm sure still retains some of that attraction. It's not like you can just turn it on and off like a switch.

Attraction or appreciation maybe... in "Anywhere But Here" she seemed to agree with Buffy's opinions on Daniel Craig and Christian Bale.

But interest... no. I think it's pretty clear she's exclusively interested in women as sexual or romantic partners now.

I still maintain the episode "Him" pretty much spells it out... even under the influence of the magic of R.J.'s jacket, Willow was determined to change him into a woman before doing anything with him.

She seems to be a pretty decided lesbian now.

"I don't truck with the stubbly crowd." -- Willow, "The Long Way Home"

[buffyfan21]

Jun 22, 2009 12:34:28 GMT -5 AndrewCrossett said:

Jun 22, 2009 12:16:30 GMT -5 buffyfan21 said:

Although Willow has said that she is gay, I tend to think of her more as bi, if anything. She was once attracted to males and I'm sure still retains some of that attraction. It's not like you can just turn it on and off like a switch.

Attraction or appreciation maybe... in "Anywhere But Here" she seemed to agree with Buffy's opinions on Daniel Craig and Christian Bale.

But interest... no. I think it's pretty clear she's exclusively interested in women as sexual or romantic partners now.

I still maintain the episode "Him" pretty much spells it out... even under the influence of the magic of R.J.'s jacket, Willow was determined to change him into a woman before doing anything with him.

She seems to be a pretty decided lesbian now.

"I don't truck with the stubbly crowd." -- Willow, "The Long Way Home"

You make a good argument here.

[thisyearsgirl91]

I identify Willow as gay. She has stated over and over that she's gay, so who are we to say she isn't?

I don't understand it when people say that she must be bi because she has dated boys. So does this mean that every gay person in the world who has at one time dated someone of the opposite sex, is bi? I don't think so.

Plus, the whole 'She was once attracted to boys' argument isn't valid imo. She was young. I know that when I was young, I had crushes on random people, whom make me kinda sick right now. One lesbian recently said that she used to have a crush on Ozzy. That doesn't make her bi.

[Randi Giles]

I know Willow has always stated that she was gay, but I know people who say their straight and date and whatever with the opposite sex and vice versa. Plus it wasn't about rather or not she dated or attracted to different boys. She really like Xander. And Oz was definitly more than just a high school crush. She was in love with Oz almost as she was with Tara. . I think she may have the ability to fall in love with anybody. Even though Willow may states she's gay I think she's capable to fall in love with anyone. I mean come on I'm sure people probaly didn't think after Oz that she find love with woman at first. Now that I think of it why does it even have to be classified?

[wenxina]

People like labels. Check my posts on the whole fluid sexuality thing in the previous page. It addresses how one can have dated members of the opposite sex, and still identify as gay. It may not be what you believe in, but it's a valid school of thought.

[thisyearsgirl91]

Dec 20, 2009 22:17:38 GMT -5 Randi Giles said:

I know Willow has always stated that she was gay, but I know people who say their straight and date and whatever with the opposite sex and vice versa. Plus it wasn't about rather or not she dated or attracted to different boys. She really like Xander. And Oz was definitly more than just a high school crush. She was in love with Oz almost as she was with Tara. . I think she may have the ability to fall in love with anybody. Even though Willow may states she's gay I think she's capable to fall in love with anyone. I mean come on I'm sure people probaly didn't think after Oz that she find love with woman at first. Now that I think of it why does it even have to be classified?

Xander was her best friend. It's not suprisingly that she would get a crush on him. I'm sure a lot of us have been there. Having a crush on someone, doesn't even always mean that you are attracted to them.

Look at Kelly McGillis. She has been married a few times I believe and she recently came out as a lesbian. It happens. People do love those of the opposite sex despite being gay. That's why it doesn't last.

[lightandmagic]

I highly disagree with the whole fluidity paradigm in sexuality. Cause that for me designates that it's a choice, and I don't believe it is. And I believe both real life examples given, of when you're younger believing you like the opposite sex and then realizing you are gay later in life doesn't prove fluidity in sexuality at all. (Sorry if that sounds rude and/or offensive, don't mean it to be, I also had a similar experience) The cause of that to me, at least, is being simply too young to understand sexuality, and it isn't until you realize there's other things out there that not everyone ends up with the opposite gender that it all begins to 'click'.

As for Willow, not gonna lie, I think the writers handled her 'labeling' poorly. As others have mentioned she clearly was in love with Oz and Xander and had crushes on several other boys. Then she fell in love with someone that happened to be of the same gender, and now she's only lesbian? I don't think it's possible to derive a solution from the text about her sexuality when I think the writers essentially messed up the situation. =/

It's one of my few pet peeves of the show. I can understand her remaining with women, wanting to continue dating them, but to totally discount the fact that she genuinely used to be attracted to men is an error in my opinion.

And as Joss Whedon has been heterosexual his whole life (as there has been no evidence to the contrary, and at least that's what I've always seen him come across as) I don't think he necessarily has the best handle on sexuality and it's fluidity or lack thereof.

[wenxina]

lightandmagic: I think you're confusing the choice in identification as the choice in orientation. The fluid paradigm (from my understanding) doesn't argue that one chooses one's sexuality at any point in time, but chooses how to define oneself. The real-life experiences given (mine included) do not "prove" the validity of the fluid paradigm, but rather fit within it.

Willow is "gay" not because she's discounting what experiences she had in the past, but rather because at the moment, she is only into girls. To discount her relationship with Oz would be completely disrespectful of that relationship, and that's not what the writers did. Again, Willow's identification as "gay" is in no way dismissive of her previous relationship with Oz, it's just what she feels best fits her at the moment. It's merely a statement of who she feels she is. Going by the fluid paradigm, the writers did not mess up the situation. People should be allowed to identify with whatever they choose, without other people, going, "No, you did this before, so you're clearly this, not that". That, is rude. There is no need to dismiss one's previous experiences as naivete; in fact, to do so would actually be dismissive moreso than identifying yourself as "gay" now, even if you've previously dated women. I do not look back upon my life and regret the things I've done. They seemed "right" then. But I moved on. And that's fine.