weredog
Innocent Bystander
[Mo0:0]
Posts: 38
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Post by weredog on Dec 22, 2009 12:17:47 GMT -5
Interesting preview. I am really hoping the issue is faithful to the final events of "Retreat" because the previews are suggesting otherwise. Like some posters have said, why are Willow and Oz free from the military? If they never were, why aren't they more urgent about the others? And why isn't it snowing anymore?! I can move past that fact, but still... I love Jeanty's penciling, as usual. He nails resemblance. A feat that Karl Moline doesn't master, in my opinion. Looking at the previews for the Willow one-shot makes me cringe -- that is not Willow. Jeanty's Willow is Willow. Speaking of Willow, it's nice to see her here in some pants!
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Post by Rebecca on Dec 22, 2009 17:07:06 GMT -5
Personally, I appreciate Moline's work because he creates a dynamic scene and interesting panels. Likenesses at this point aren't my priority. I'm buying comics for the story, not picture perfect likenesses... if I wanted that I'd just pop in my Buffy DVDs But that's my personal preference. So long as I can tell who's who, I'm happy with likenesses.
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Hellbound Hyperion
Bad Ass Wicca
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Dude, you just rescued a puppy![Mo0:18]
Posts: 2,268
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Post by Hellbound Hyperion on Dec 23, 2009 18:06:33 GMT -5
No reason to think it wouldn't be - Joss supposedly wrote the final panels of Retreat Pt. 5, not Jane. (The part where Buffy finds out she's flying and everyone's been captured.) I'm sure there's a reason or some panels that we don't have that more than explains what's going on here.
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Post by wenxina on Dec 28, 2009 12:48:00 GMT -5
Methinks that it's possible that Willow, Oz, and Bay (and perhaps some others) managed to escape capture. I'm guessing Slayers were the main priority in the capture. Still doesn't account for what looked like Willow being herded along with the others... but I guess we'll see when this is released. Just over 2 weeks... so far away...
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Post by AndrewCrossett on Dec 28, 2009 13:17:06 GMT -5
Methinks that it's possible that Willow, Oz, and Bay (and perhaps some others) managed to escape capture. I'm guessing Slayers were the main priority in the capture. Still doesn't account for what looked like Willow being herded along with the others... but I guess we'll see when this is released. Just over 2 weeks... so far away... Things seem to be fairly relaxed by the time of the #32 preview, so I suppose everything will work out. What gets me is that Twilight was in a position to take large numbers of prisoners, but not to get his own wounded men back. I know he couldn't care less about them, but he's certainly not endearing himself to his soldiers, or to the commanding officer standing next to him. Which means he either has a megalomaniac's sense of invulnerability, or he just doesn't see any reason to care what they think. That might be key to getting his followers to start abandoning him.
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Post by wenxina on Dec 28, 2009 13:50:35 GMT -5
It's possible though, that his wounded were concealed by the snow by the time they got around to it. They didn't take any of the opposition's wounded either, and these would mostly have been Slayers. Twilight's just a big fat question mark at the moment. His motives have been mostly veiled thus far, and so everything's just guesswork for now. Wondering what happened to the Scythe though... Pretty much hoping that it's not a mere footnote in history at the moment... For so much to be made of it in "WatG" and "ToYL", it would kinda suck for it to just be treated as a mere plot device instead of exploring more of its history/power/etc. Assuming that the Fraypocalypse is still in play, it still has to make its way into Urkonn's mitts...
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Post by AndrewCrossett on Dec 28, 2009 15:09:47 GMT -5
Wondering what happened to the Scythe though... Pretty much hoping that it's not a mere footnote in history at the moment... For so much to be made of it in "WatG" and "ToYL", it would kinda suck for it to just be treated as a mere plot device instead of exploring more of its history/power/etc. I posted this over in the "Official Discussion of Scott Allie Q&A's" thread, but I'll repost it here: Scott Allie has confirmed that Buffy did NOT get her Scythe back after she got dropped by the goddess. So let's speculate as to what became of it. Possibilities: A. Twilight's people captured it, and somehow missed Buffy herself lying nearby, unconscious in the snow. If so, it's an emergency situation... Twilight could use it to de-power all the Slayers in the world. Maybe he does just that, and that's how we get back to just one Slayer? B. The goddesses took it in trade for giving Buffy the powers she now has. C. It's somehow merged with Buffy herself, and gives her her current powers. (Think Nico and her staff in "Runaways.") D. One of the other Slayers took it, and hasn't given it back for some reason. (Faith? Kennedy? Satsu?)
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Post by Emmie on Dec 28, 2009 15:36:45 GMT -5
Or it's just lying there in a field, forgotten by Buffy because she's moved on to her shiny, new powers. That she's symbolically disconnected from the Slayer line now, a negligent parent. More interested in discovering what she can do that protecting all the Slayers who have been captured. But that's a bit too far - I think Buffy is training in the #32 preview so that she's ready for the rescue mission. Kinda like how Luke trained with Yoda before going after Darth Vader - if you're not ready, then you're going to lose.
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Hellbound Hyperion
Bad Ass Wicca
$20 per soul, no refunds[/B]
Dude, you just rescued a puppy![Mo0:18]
Posts: 2,268
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Post by Hellbound Hyperion on Dec 28, 2009 16:05:50 GMT -5
The whole thing with the Scythe was why I asked my question about whether there was gonna be more added to the idea of "Slayer" than what we already know and understand to this point. It seemed kind of suspect to me that Faith and the Scythe would have anything to do with the plot, since they've both been somewhat in the background from the start. In fact, it might be worth going back and seeing which Slayers are holding the Scythe throughout the story. Has it only been Buffy? If so, I like Emmie's "negligent parent" metaphor. I think I'll also have to re-read the P&P story with Faith and Giles - maybe some unknown foreshadowing? And if Buffy really is training in #32, and since we know the Twilight reveal is in #33, I suspect she's not actually going to get her friends back in this arc. But that's just a feeling I have.
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Post by AndrewCrossett on Dec 28, 2009 16:12:29 GMT -5
In fact, it might be worth going back and seeing which Slayers are holding the Scythe throughout the story. Has it only been Buffy? Satsu has had it on at least 2 occasions... when she rescued it in WatG (just before Willow caught her), and in Retreat just before the goddess picked Buffy up and dropped her. For Buffy to just leave it lying in the field would be terribly irresponsible, knowing what it can be used for. It's possible, I suppose, that she just couldn't find it.
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Post by wenxina on Dec 28, 2009 16:29:00 GMT -5
The whole thing with the Scythe was why I asked my question about whether there was gonna be more added to the idea of "Slayer" than what we already know and understand to this point. It seemed kind of suspect to me that Faith and the Scythe would have anything to do with the plot, since they've both been somewhat in the background from the start. In fact, it might be worth going back and seeing which Slayers are holding the Scythe throughout the story. Has it only been Buffy? If so, I like Emmie's "negligent parent" metaphor. I think I'll also have to re-read the P&P story with Faith and Giles - maybe some unknown foreshadowing? And if Buffy really is training in #32, and since we know the Twilight reveal is in #33, I suspect she's not actually going to get her friends back in this arc. But that's just a feeling I have. I think you picked up on an old question of mine a few months back, when all I got was the classic "No spoiler!" answer. As for which Slayers have held the Scythe, the only ones who have held it (that we've seen) are Buffy, Faith (in S7), Kennedy (taking it from Willow to hand over to Buffy), Rona (the only other Slayer who's wielded it in battle besides Buffy and Faith), and Satsu (at least twice, as AC has pointed out. I think Buffy is training in the #32 preview so that she's ready for the rescue mission. Kinda like how Luke trained with Yoda before going after Darth Vader - if you're not ready, then you're going to lose. Well, from what I gleaned from the current Editor's post over at the Dark Horse website, it sounds like there's still a rescue mission to be had in Meltzer's arc.
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Post by DorothyFan1 on Dec 30, 2009 20:45:07 GMT -5
There are a couple of things that are coming to my attention. First, the preview panels makes me suspect Willow knows who Twilight is before anybody else does. Willow has just learned what Buffy told her WILL happen - unless Joss has a wackier view of time space continuum s than we do. If I'm right about this...it means Twilight's identity is not as important as what Willow now knows and what happens to HER. For all we know Twilight may be a new guy so whatever happens to him isn't as important as what happens to Willow.
I think this is an important factor here. Why bother giving us a one shot of Willow in the middle of the Twilight arc for? Because what happens here will decide Willow's fate...death or departure. I've been getting this sneaky feeling Joss is setting up some kind of permanent split between Buffy and Willow. It was hinted at very strongly in the storyline arc "Anywhere But Here." The demon said Buffy would achieve her greatest wish...the end of magic. So right off the bat we get another hint Buffy may be siding with Twilight...whoever he is.
This suggests Willow is no longer part of the Scoobies. She's already turned dark once, thanks to Rack, and yes, even Rat Amy. But it was Tara's death that "birthed" the true Dark Willow that's been hiding all this time. I believe the panel in Anywhere But Here showing Buffy lying on the ground had an important clue that nobody has been able to decipher - the broken egg shell on the top wall. That was a symbol of something...and I believe it's symbolizing Willow's emergence into her "true self". Remember, the Willow one shot was all about Willow discovering her true self.
Alywyn or Saga Vasuki hinted at knowing who Willow really is...and it doesn't presage a rosy future for the Wiccan. Saga told Willow she couldn't hide from her. She knows where Willow is no matter where she goes. My suspicion is Joss is preparing us to see Willow accepting her fate to becoming Dark Willow for real. Willow can't escape the darkness that is part of her...and Willow may have to accept it in order to fully accept herself for who she really is meant to be - a very powerful evil witch.
Secondly, about the missing Scythe...this I believe is a red herring. All this talk about it at this point is nonsense. Remember Season 5's ending? Out of the blue Buffy whips out the God Hammer to konk Glory into kingdom come. So I think this is a minor point...unless Joss is really paying attention and is fully aware Fray's Scythe was DESTROYED when Buffy fought her 200 years in that future. Has anybody bothered to wonder how it is this Scythe was easily dismantled by Buffy...and yet Buffy has this very Scythe in the present? If I've lost you...the answer is..the Scythe has been corrupted and no longer holds the power of the Slayer line in it. Why? Because there is no official Guardian protecting it...so unless this Guardian is really Willow then the answer is the Scythe is no longer doing what it's supposed to do...protect the Slayer line. So even if Twilight has it...it's useless even before he does anything with it to "depower" the Slayer army.
Prediction...if Twilight is Giles - expect the showdown to be between Giles/Twilight against Willow. At this point it's anybody's guess which side Buffy will take. This is all my opinion.
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Post by wenxina on Dec 30, 2009 21:07:00 GMT -5
Twilight is not someone new. I think this much has been vaguely confirmed by Scott Allie, or Georges Jeanty at this point. As for why the Willow one-shot happened, it's actually the reverse of what you think. The one-shot was conceived to fill time, to allow a gap month between #30 and #31. Scott Allie thought that a Willow one-shot would be good, and Joss was gracious enough to write it. It wasn't part of Joss' grand plan. Willow has shown signs of kinda knowing what's in store in the future. Not a clear picture, but she's said some things that suggest that she understands how things work... that magic transcends time and space. But then again, Aluwyn more than likely transcends time and space. She knows of things in the future, as shown in "ToYL". As for Olaf's hammer, it wasn't out of the blue. It was one of the spoils from a previous fight. Fray's Scythe was destroyed but it may not be because of corruption. For all we know, Fray could've destroyed Buffy's Scythe with the same ease. I think the point was that Buffy's sense of urgency gave her the strength to do so. The Scythe is mystical, but it's never been established as invulnerable. But back to Twilight. His identity will be important. Willow's journey isn't the point of S8. It's a subplot. The one-shot was conceived to kill time, albeit do it quite nicely. But that's not saying that Twilight's identity is not tied to Willow in some way. Many theories conclude that Twilight is the future version of a known character, and thus could be tied to Willow. Right now, Willow getting her power back is probably the result of her future death. That's my pet theory. Which would be fitting, since Joss wrote that arc, and his return to address the ramifications of the arc would be more than fitting.
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Post by DorothyFan1 on Dec 30, 2009 21:15:31 GMT -5
The cover art to the issue showing Buffy finally seeing Twilight's face tells me it's a man. So unless even that cover art was a misdirection I think it's safe to assume Twilight can't be Willow herself. Plus, it's impossible for Twilight to be Willow while Warren and Amy were slicing up her brain with the art knife.
I've been pilloried on another forum for suggesting the theory that the speech bubbles on Twilight are signaling the use of a voice scrambler hiding not only the voice but the gender of Twilight.
But if you're right that Twilight is somehow tied to Willow...then this means my previous comment on Dark Willow's death is really an atonement for a transgression may still be accurate. But this assumes Twilight is somehow Willow...but this can't be. Willow's whole world is magic...so I can't believe it's her. The motivation is simply not there...and I certainly can't see Willow being evil enough to kill off Buffy's friends.
So let's hope to high heaven that Twilight is not Willow. Besides, Willow and Buffy are practically the same size in height. Twilight is much taller.
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Post by wenxina on Dec 30, 2009 21:38:03 GMT -5
I think it's safe to assume that Twilight is male. His speech text does suggest that his voice is scrambled. In fact, Twilight's speech has the same text as the vampires and other demons. Twilight may be connected to Willow in the sense that he's probably from the future, and time travel has already been established in the Buffyverse, thus far. I don't think Twilight is Willow. Again, male. Twilight's identity will be revealed in #33, so all's good.
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Post by DorothyFan1 on Dec 30, 2009 21:43:00 GMT -5
I think it's safe to assume that Twilight is male. His speech text does suggest that his voice is scrambled. In fact, Twilight's speech has the same text as the vampires and other demons. Twilight may be connected to Willow in the sense that he's probably from the future, and time travel has already been established in the Buffyverse, thus far. I don't think Twilight is Willow. Again, male. Twilight's identity will be revealed in #33, so all's good. Then according to this way of thinking...then it's probably Harth. Harth did say to Dark Willow they "fought" in the past. However, if it's NOT Harth...then it narrows it down to either Angel or Spike. But the last clue from that cover art shows Twilight unmasking himself with the LEFT hand. There are only two men who fit that description as left handed...Giles or Spike. If we have to be logical...then the evidence points it to being Spike.
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Post by wenxina on Dec 30, 2009 22:08:35 GMT -5
Harth is a viable option, except for the size issue. It's been said time and again that there has been a deliberate lack of clues as to Twilight's identity. It's not supposed to be a mystery that can be solved from clues laid down in the past, but rather a revelation that makes sense in retrospect. Hindsight's always 20/20. I've stopped trying to guess who Twilight is... much rather decide if I think the revelation makes sense after the fact. That said, can't wait for #31... more Joss-y goodness. The Willow one-shot was a nice return to form for the series, so I'm hoping #31 will continue in the same vein.
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Post by AndrewCrossett on Dec 30, 2009 22:40:49 GMT -5
I've been pilloried on another forum for suggesting the theory that the speech bubbles on Twilight are signaling the use of a voice scrambler hiding not only the voice but the gender of Twilight. It's just about certain that Twilight is using a voice scrambler. The font used for his speech suggests a strangeness to it; Buffy would have recognized his voice when they spoke in A Beautiful Sunset, since he's certainly someone she knows; and Scott Allie in a recent Q&A drew a direct comparison, voice-wise, between Twilight and Batman in The Dark Knight (who uses a voice scrambler because people would recognize Bruce Wayne's voice.) It would be plausible to think he could hide his gender that way too, but I think it's established that he's male. I don't think it's Harth because of something Georges Jeanty said in his last Q&A... that once we knew Twilight's identity, we'd need an explanation for why he's Buffy's enemy. But it's no surprise to anyone to see Harth as Buffy's enemy. I've been wondering about the Scythe issue since Scott confirmed Buffy lost it in the recent battle. We *think* we know it can't have been destroyed, or permanently merged with Buffy, since Urkonn shows up with it 200 years in the future in Fray, and gives it to Mel. But where did Urkonn get it? How did the bad guys wind up with the Scythe? Maybe it was discarded as irrelevant after the Fraypocalypse? Or maybe Buffy lost it during her victory(?) and it eventually found its way to Urkonn or his employers? Or maybe... Buffy's Scythe and Melaka's are two different objects. In ToYL, Buffy and Mel both having the same Scythe at the same time seems to violate the law of conservation of matter. I know... it's magic and Joss can violate whatever laws he wants. But it still seems odd that this could happen without causing a time paradox of some sort. (In fact, I've wondered what would have happened if Present!Willow had leaned through the portal to rescue Buffy while Future Dark Willow was still alive in that time.)
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Post by DorothyFan1 on Dec 30, 2009 23:04:11 GMT -5
Well, if there weren't supposed to be any clues we'd be able to identify Twilight UNTIL we look at them AFTER the reveal...then this tells me it's probably Giles.
I recall in the very beginning showing Giles drinking his cup of tea and I "thought" I saw what looked like an image of an Ace of Spades in the shadow in the cup. If that was a clue that we weren't supposed to pick up...then I've ruined it for Joss. I saw the Ace of Spade in the tea cup. Nobody believed me when I brought this up...but maybe that's what Joss and Scott are talking about...clues that are there...but we're not supposed to BELIEVE them.
After the reveal...then we'd all see the clues that have been left behind and then we'd have a V8 moment by giving ourselves the head slap saying "of course, it was there all this time."
Now as to my belief Willow now knows the identity of Twilight once she gets hit by that feedback loop from her own power reaching back into the past - let's keep in mind it's probable Dark Willow already knew the identity of Twilight. It stands to reason Dark Willow encoded the feedback loop with information about what happened that would be useful to Willow. The one inexplicable part of that storyline arc "Time of Your Life" was Buffy not even asking anybody...even Dark Willow if she knew the identity of Twilight didn't make any sense. Before Buffy guts her Dark Willow did say..."it's a long story" and then Buffy kills her. So what's this "long story" Willow has been keeping to herself for 200 years?
Joss has yet to explain this. I'm willing to bet this may be a big part of Season 9 once that starts rolling around especially if Willow is split from the Scoobies (which is something I've been suspecting has been in the works for quite some time.) The reintroduction of Warren and Amy really don't make any sense...UNLESS it's tied to Willow. Why? And why are Warren and Amy specifically the ones working with Twilight? Does it make any sense why Amy would be willing to work with Twilight knowing full well this character Twilight wants to DESTROY all magic? Unless we're being led to believe Amy is suicidal which is possible...it really doesn't make any sense why she's working with him.
But notice...Twilight wants to destroy magic; Amy wants to kill Willow; Warren wants revenge on Willow. Kumiko almost killed Willow. All these people are after Willow. It can't be a coincidence. It's all about Willow. And guess who doesn't like Willow? Giles. Twilight is probably him. I could be wrong...but I think I've made a pretty good case. But even so...this entire storyline arc is really about separating Buffy and Willow.
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Billie Erin
Ensouled Vampire
"I go back to December"
"I picked up a hitchhiker. You've got to when you hit them."[Mo0:0]
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Post by Billie Erin on Dec 31, 2009 7:40:39 GMT -5
I agree that it's all about Willow- there's been a lot of focus on her throughout the season with the Toyl arc and the recent one-shot right in the middle of the climatic battle scene.
If Joss does decide to eliminate a major character at the end of the season it'll probably be Willow because it seems inevitable that she will eventually become evil and although I expect Buffy to triumph over Twilight I don't think it can just be a clear cut victory- we've gone past that level of simplicity, I think that Buffy will defeat him but she'll lose Willow, making the ending more complex and realistic
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