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Post by hitnrun017 on Feb 20, 2008 13:04:50 GMT -5
Us Buffy fans DO look too deep into things. It's what I like about the fandom. There were all kinds of things in the series that made us do that. Refrences to Dawn, Buffy's death everything in Restless...
And I think that there are already a bunch of clues that it could be Buffy that betrays herself. Robbing a bank, being detatched from pretty much everyone....
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Post by Rebecca on Feb 20, 2008 14:02:31 GMT -5
Us Buffy fans DO look too deep into things. It's what I like about the fandom. There were all kinds of things in the series that made us do that. Refrences to Dawn, Buffy's death everything in Restless... And I think that there are already a bunch of clues that it could be Buffy that betrays herself. Robbing a bank, being detatched from pretty much everyone.... ...though being detached from everyone is nothing new in the Buffyverse. I don't necessarily see that as a sign she will betray herself. After Anywhere But Here I got to thinking Willow would betray Buffy. Not sure exactly why, call it instinct Now, I don't think Willow will do it just to betray Buffy in revenge for something, but I do see the rift between them in particular especially pertinent to this whole betrayal issue.
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Post by mpcuniverse on Feb 20, 2008 15:29:31 GMT -5
Us Buffy fans DO look too deep into things. It's what I like about the fandom. There were all kinds of things in the series that made us do that. Refrences to Dawn, Buffy's death everything in Restless... And I think that there are already a bunch of clues that it could be Buffy that betrays herself. Robbing a bank, being detatched from pretty much everyone.... By the way, Buffy's death was first introduced in Graduation Day Part II. Faith: "Little miss muffet counting down from the big 7 3 0"
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patrick
Potential Slayer
Wiffy 'Shipper
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Post by patrick on Feb 20, 2008 15:39:00 GMT -5
I'm voting for Dawn.
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barryshaft
Novice Witch
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Post by barryshaft on Feb 20, 2008 15:52:39 GMT -5
I see Buffy being a threat to herself as a much more likely scenario then Hank Summers appearing from nowhere and going "Mwahahaha...I'm Buffy's absentee father...I was in the show twice...Now I'm evil!!!!" And it makes a lot more sense then Xander, Angel or Giles betraying her so I don't really see how people discussing viable story options seems all that ridiculous to you? Nobody's saying Buffy is going to mysteriously, physically betray herself somehow but rather psychologically... From Whedon's past...I'd say it's more likely than a random old character popping up out of the woodworks.
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ded1
Rogue Demon Hunter
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Post by ded1 on Mar 19, 2008 19:13:50 GMT -5
While reading Antique in preparation for Wolves pt.2,some Dracula dialog got me thinking about this topic.
"These children follow you because they perceive you as powerful,mysterious.As time passes,They'll come to resent your experience.They'll view you as antiquated,obsolete.Before you know it,you'll be a joke.The world cycles...each generation must negate the generation before it."Antique
In issue 10 Anywhere But Here,when they see the image of Buffy battered,Robin's exact words are "Betrayal.The closest,the most unexpected" While she could be talking about one person,it could also be a group instead.
It would seem that Buffy has a kind of "Elite Team"[Satsu,Leah,Rowena etc.] that would follow her without question[robbing a bank would probably require that kind of loyalty,I think]. They are also concerned with how Buffy sees them [in A Long Way Home,when Satsu getting ready to go get Willow,Rowena jokes with her yet when they tell her not to embarrass them seem to take a more serious tone].Buffy,I think,would have absolute trust and faith in this "Elite Squad",she would have to.
If we apply the Dracula dialog{I'm not using it as evidence,unless it gets mentioned in the Wolves arc,but more as a point of inspiration} "Each generation must negate the generation before it" At the end of A Beautiful Sunset,Buffy and Xander talk about a connection between the mass-called slayers,she wonders why she can't feel it.Xander tells her "Maybe you don't get to.Maybe the leader,the girl who brings it all together,is the one that has to give that up" Buffy is the older generation,the mass-called slayers are the newer one. "They will view you as antiquated,obsolete" We now have the gun-toting slayers[Simone and friends].The other slayers could view this as a more efficent means to fight,and begin to question why Buffy would rather use swords and more medeval weaponry.
How will the other slayers perceive the Buffy/Satsu event? Could this be,in there eyes, a betrayal of sorts.Buffy's first flaw.
I think that a mass defection of slayers,slayers betraying Buffy,could be a real possibility.
Any thoughts?
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Post by xmadxscientistx on Mar 19, 2008 20:41:01 GMT -5
Ded1 has some good points.
I'm in the camp that Satsu is the betrayer. I'm not sure why, but I think she's distracting Buffy from something, and I think she's also insinuating herself into a position of trust.
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Post by dgryphon on Mar 19, 2008 20:56:11 GMT -5
I'm not quite sold on Satsu being the betrayer because she's not that close to Buffy. HOWEVER, depending on WHEN the betrayal is going to take place, I can totally see myself slowing leaning towards the idea that Satsu will kick the crap out of the Buffster.
It would also make me feel better about the ambiguous "Buffy using another person for sex to deal with the world" thing. If Satsu's just trying to get close to Buffy, then it's Satsu using sex, not our Slayer.
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postitnote
Descendant of a Toaster Oven
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Post by postitnote on Mar 19, 2008 22:29:12 GMT -5
Hmm...I'm not sold on the Satsu (though I was before) but I like this close read, makes me wonder if the ideas Joss develops for the whole of season 8 stemmed from this Antique story.
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Post by sagewoman on Mar 20, 2008 0:04:21 GMT -5
Mikey - great theory! I can totally see that.
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Post by Emmie on Mar 20, 2008 2:08:19 GMT -5
Or Batman. Only Batman is capable of beating the holy crap out of a slayer that thouroughly. haha this reminds me of the online fictional matchups they had last year btn all the badasses in pop culture. buffy got knocked out in the first round b/c she was facing batman...i of course voted my ass off for our slayer and continuing in this vein of unlikely 'B' villains, this is from EW: "BUFFY THE VAMPIRE SLAYER VS. BLADE THE STARS Sarah Michelle Gellar and Wesley Snipes THE PLOT Ever dedicated to destroying his own kind, fearsome half-vampire Blade gets word that a small town in California has a persistent vamp problem. He touches down in Sunnydale, where he's immediately mistaken for an ordinary bloodsucker by Buffy Summers. The two clash, exchanging gunfire and karate kicks, and then realize that they share a common goal -- and that they're both way cute. A steamy, R-rated love affair and many slayings follow. WHO WINS THE FIGHT? Blade (hey, he gets the beautiful girl)" (http://www.ew.com/ew/article/0,,331817,00.html)
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Post by Emmie on Mar 20, 2008 2:31:27 GMT -5
So the only evidence we have so far is this:
"Betrayal the closest the most unexpected"
Not unexpected - I'd eliminate Giles, Faith and Willow as possibles suspects because Buffy has been betrayed by them before, so if it happens again she won't exactly be surprised. Willow has been a bit AWOL in their friendship and, as with Anya in the episode Selfless, Buffy watches her friends who possess alot of power and have a history of the evil-doing. Buffy loves Willow and Willow is redeeming herself, but I don't think Buffy completely trusts her.
I'd eliminate Riley too b/c he's not exactly close to Buffy anymore nor was her ever the closest to her imo
I think the most likely people who qualify are Xander, Dawn, and Buffy's slayer elite trio (Satsu, Leah, Rowena).
I can't find my issue 10 to look this up, but was the betrayer clearly defined as a person?
if not, i think it would be interesting if it was her own slayer power that betrayed her in the end. the end of season 7 and now season 8 focus on the manipulation of that power and, besides the abuse of that power by rogue slayers, we haven't seen much of a mystical backlash. i'm still waiting to see how we get from 1800 slayers back to only 1 in Fray's time.
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Rachster
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Post by Rachster on Mar 20, 2008 2:48:10 GMT -5
So the only evidence we have so far is this: "Betrayal the closest the most unexpected" Not unexpected - I'd eliminate Giles, Faith and Willow as possibles suspects because Buffy has been betrayed by them before, so if it happens again she won't exactly be surprised. Willow has been a bit AWOL in their friendship and, as with Anya in the episode Selfless, Buffy watches her friends who possess alot of power and have a history of the evil-doing. Buffy loves Willow and Willow is redeeming herself, but I don't think Buffy completely trusts her. I'd eliminate Riley too b/c he's not exactly close to Buffy anymore nor was her ever the closest to her imo I think the most likely people who qualify are Xander, Dawn, and Buffy's slayer elite trio (Satsu, Leah, Rowena). I can't find my issue 10 to look this up, but was the betrayer clearly defined as a person? if not, i think it would be interesting if it was her own slayer power that betrayed her in the end. the end of season 7 and now season 8 focus on the manipulation of that power and, besides the abuse of that power by rogue slayers, we haven't seen much of a mystical backlash. I'm still waiting to see how we get from 1800 slayers back to only 1 in Fray's time. yeah i dont think it will be dawn or Giles or willow but i dont think it will be xander either i keep leaning towards satsu because Buffy knows satsu loves her and she would never expect from her but i don't think it does state that it is a person.. so that opens up some possibilities
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dane5by5
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Post by dane5by5 on Mar 20, 2008 6:11:53 GMT -5
So the only evidence we have so far is this: "Betrayal the closest the most unexpected" Not unexpected - I'd eliminate Giles, Faith and Willow as possibles suspects because Buffy has been betrayed by them before, so if it happens again she won't exactly be surprised. Willow has been a bit AWOL in their friendship and, as with Anya in the episode Selfless, Buffy watches her friends who possess alot of power and have a history of the evil-doing. Buffy loves Willow and Willow is redeeming herself, but I don't think Buffy completely trusts her. I'd eliminate Riley too b/c he's not exactly close to Buffy anymore nor was her ever the closest to her imo I think the most likely people who qualify are Xander, Dawn, and Buffy's slayer elite trio (Satsu, Leah, Rowena). I can't find my issue 10 to look this up, but was the betrayer clearly defined as a person? if not, i think it would be interesting if it was her own slayer power that betrayed her in the end. the end of season 7 and now season 8 focus on the manipulation of that power and, besides the abuse of that power by rogue slayers, we haven't seen much of a mystical backlash. i'm still waiting to see how we get from 1800 slayers back to only 1 in Fray's time. Yeah that's the kind of logical approach I had when considering the "betrayer". I think Giles, Willow and Faith are all out, as I agree that Buffy would have her doubts of trust about each one. I still think Twilight could very well be Riley, but if he isn't and Riley does return and continues a friendly relationship with Buffy I wouldn't be disappointed if he betrayed her, only because it would make for entertaining drama and could further expand the military connection. Other than Riley; Xander would be shocking and would sadden me, because I strongly agree with the other posters who said he was the moral compass of the group, Satsu would be understandable and make for some exciting conflict but I think the biggest surprise to me, the most unexpected would have to be Dawn. It would shock and sadden me and for Buffy I think it would have the biggest emotional impact, I know Dawn abandoned Buffy near the end of season seven but being betrayed by her family, by someone she sacrificed her own life for, well that would just be a kick in the pants. Not to mention it would give Dawn another whole dimension.
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dane5by5
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Post by dane5by5 on Mar 20, 2008 6:21:34 GMT -5
"No, I won't betray you. Anymore than I have..." I think a lot of issue 10 is very suggestive of Willow's mystical walkabout being a walkabout in time, in the future, particularly the 'we haven't met yet' line. I think Willow knows what's going to happen, who's going to betray Buffy, and that - by not telling her - she is in some way responsible for what happens to Buffy in the future, and that's why the demon is showing it to them. I think events will eventually link Buffy to Fray, and that Willow believes in 'the end of magic'; whatever she's not telling Buffy, I think it's for the greater good. I'm going to say that everyone is going to turn their backs on Buffy - in the way that Giles already has, and Willow seems to be distancing herself, too - until there's no one left but her and Xander. That's when Whedon will pull Xander's 'unexpected' betrayal out of the bag. And the rest of the Scoobies will save her. Yay! MB x That was very plausible. Now having read Joss' recent comments on Willow's mystical walkabout and in his words "what she brings back with her" it makes me think it's the most likely situation. What else could Willow "bring back with her" that would be more powerful than knowledge of the future. She obviously has increased power, but it was a six month trip, so maybe that wasn't that only thing she gained from her journey. It also makes perfect sense that Willow would know who will betray Buffy, and in not telling her she aids in the betrayal, which could have been a double meaning to the line "Anymore than I have..."
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iloveromy
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Post by iloveromy on Mar 20, 2008 9:20:43 GMT -5
I too, am in the camp that believes Buffy will betray herself.
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Post by KingofCretins on Mar 20, 2008 9:25:08 GMT -5
"not expected" was something that Robin told *Buffy*, not *us*. We might "expect" Giles to betray Buffy, but that doesn't mean that Buffy does.
I could deal with Giles. What I don't think I could handle would be one of the Core Four (which I now consider to include Dawn more than Giles anyway) being the source of the problem. I've really not enjoyed the idea that someone of that magnitude will betray Buffy. I think it's a bad idea. I think that if Joss were to turn Xander or Dawn or Willow against Buffy in an open way, it would break faith with a huge chunk of the audience. For a lot of fans, Xander or Willow in particular are the hero of the series, or at least both equal to Buffy herself, so why would they feel compelled to press on in a pay as you go format if they felt they had been betrayed, too?
Unless we're going with really convoluted theories that the mole and the traitor are going to be different people, we know a few important things. First and foremost, the mole/traitor is knowingly complicit in a conspiracy to *murder* Buffy. We know this as early as 8.09, when the mole/traitor knew specifically to report that Buffy was still alive -- clearly they knew that was a question they'd be asked. Ergo, they knew the goal was that she wouldn't be. And even if they hadn't, they damn well know after 8.11, when Twilight could have killed her with ease and told her he meant to do so eventually.
So, let go of this idea that it could be a Scooby and they just think they are acting in Buffy's best interests -- if this mole and this traitor are one, they are part of a murdering plot, murdering *her*. There is no coming back from that as a beloved character.
So as sad as it is, as much (to me, rather asinine) complaints would be made that it's bad sexual politics, I would much, much rather it be Satsu or Renee than an actual current Scooby. Giles if they *had* to go there, but never, never Willow, Xander, or Dawn.
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iloveromy
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Post by iloveromy on Mar 20, 2008 9:55:28 GMT -5
Did anyone ever think that there is a plot to use one of the decoy Buffys to take over as the real Buffy? Kind of like a "Man in the Iron Mask" type deal? I'm pretty new here so i'm not sure if this has been discussed before.
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kershmuckit
Potential Slayer
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Post by kershmuckit on Mar 20, 2008 9:59:54 GMT -5
Lets break this down... I'm gonna read into alot here so pardon me if i stretch a bit 'Betrayal, the closest, most unexpected' This came from the spirit guide, who as far as we know has no reason to lie. Also a vague reference to buffy 'saving the prince'. Some people have also read into the broken egg above buffy as a clue, lol, dawn the hatchling Ok so first whos close, at the moment, or more, whos not close.. Not sure about Willow, i think next issue will tell, cause there either gonna bond over satsu or grow further apart, my money is on growing further apart, simply because i think the willow/buffy riff is going to be part of a further storyline. So currently, in the not close box. Giles isn't close..., nor faith, at the moment. Neither is riley. Close people.., dawn, xander, satsu and the mini slayers. Although her and dawn aren't the best they've been. So out of these people.. Dawn, well we know she goes godzilla eventually..., we also know that she's been off with buffy, they've been bickering. Not to mention this giant thing is weighing heavy on her...(no pun intended lolz). It could be dawn, but i just can't see her being 'evil' enough to betray, i think if she did it would be almost unintentional, or a stupid mistake. Xand, really hope it isn't him. Theres not too much evidence..., theres the chance that he sent buffy to the graveyard on purpose for twilight. Also this dracula thing, a YEAR with drac. I mean, woah. Why wasn't buffy there? - why has she sent xander to go see him when she know dracula's power over him? Is she treating him badly? Could be motervation. But he's lowest on my list because i don't waaaaaaaaaaaaant it to be him. Satsu; Probably the most likely, and buffy knows Satsu loves her so it would be unexpected. Plus theres room for satsu's love to turn twisted, unrequanted feelings for buffy, getting all worked up and hopeful after being so close to her only to find she got as close as she could and still wasn't where she wanted to be emotionally with buffy. Could get very twisted. Although i think it will take a good bit more twisting for her to get to that point since right now she's a puppy as far as buffy's concerned. But these next few issues are most likely gonna contain satsu coming to terms with the fact that it was just 'one night'. Anyone would be a little angry, even if she was completely willing, i think she was hopeing she could somehow win her heart that way. The mini slayers; Buffy/satsu could cause some werid power dynamic issues..., all the stff ded1 said above, no point in repeating it. Well thats my 2c. WHO COULD IT BE!? - Er. No idea, satsu probably, unrequanted love makes you do the worst side of wacky.
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Sacred Simplicity
Common Vampire
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Post by Sacred Simplicity on Mar 20, 2008 13:51:23 GMT -5
Dawn says my instinct. Not particularly sure why. It sorta makes sence though. Dawn is humoungous, and even though she doesn't have super strength because of it, we've seen that she's quite adept at killing things. And after all that thing about blood in season 5, and the fact that Dawn is made of Buffy, she's kind of the closest. I know theres no motive yet, but something could happen in one of the later issues which tips her over the edge.
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