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Post by Skytteflickan88 on Apr 10, 2008 8:30:44 GMT -5
I disagree though that it's never been shown before that Dawn can open more than just one portal. The point was that in opening a portal to her hell dimension, Glory would open many portals to different worlds as all the barriers separating the dimensions would collapse and bleed into our own. . Oh, i forgot about the most obvious argument. good, now i will have more ammo for future battles against dawn's-not-the-key people
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Post by Rebecca on Apr 10, 2008 10:55:58 GMT -5
But why should she only be able to open one portal to one world? I'm sure that at the right time and place and bleeding she could open up portals to all sorts of worlds. Isn't she a universal Key, able to open all sorts of dimensions at the rights time? Has it been mentioned otherwise? I can't remember it being said that she was only able to open a portal to Glory's world. Perhaps in another millenia she can open the portal again, but Glory was in a hurry. She might not be able to open anything again, but she is still the key, functional or not. It's what she's made of. unless of course, the monks created a human, dawn, to containe some of the Key's essence and that essence is gone now that Glory's dead. But i don't think that's likely. I don't think that Dawn's Key-ness is gone. Potential's probably there, given the right time, the right rituals (of course it's gotta be a ritual involving blood...), and the right place, she could probably be functional again. I disagree though that it's never been shown before that Dawn can open more than just one portal. The point was that in opening a portal to her hell dimension, Glory would open many portals to different worlds as all the barriers separating the dimensions would collapse and bleed into our own. And it is shown... although probably not too clearly by the many demon variants that make a brief appearance in "The Gift". So yes, Dawn is kind of a master key. But when she can be used... that I'm not sure has ever been resolved. But it did seem that Glory was in a hurry, as you mentioned, and there were signs that her lackeys were reading. Maybe something cliched like when the planets align, yada yada yada. It could also be argued that Glory was in a hurry because her hold in this plane was waning... and the next alignment per se would be , you know, like a few hundred years from now.
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Post by wenxina on Apr 10, 2008 11:37:28 GMT -5
True... I wasn't arguing that it was a once in a lifetime thing (and by that, I meant a one time only deal; lifetimes are tricky things to argue). Was just saying that the window(s) of time which Dawn would be useful in was never ascertained, but at least once in the S5 timeframe, she could have been used to open gateways and such. But I agree that Glory was probably in a rush because her grip was waning, and Ben was beginning to bleed into her personality. Also, if the next opportunity arose a hundred years later, no big deal for a god, but since she was bound to Ben's body, she'd die when he died of old age, so even more of an incentive to get home and wreak some pleasant chaos.
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Post by Rebecca on Apr 10, 2008 16:53:51 GMT -5
True... I wasn't arguing that it was a once in a lifetime thing (and by that, I meant a one time only deal; lifetimes are tricky things to argue). Was just saying that the window(s) of time which Dawn would be useful in was never ascertained, but at least once in the S5 timeframe, she could have been used to open gateways and such. But I agree that Glory was probably in a rush because her grip was waning, and Ben was beginning to bleed into her personality. Also, if the next opportunity arose a hundred years later, no big deal for a god, but since she was bound to Ben's body, she'd die when he died of old age, so even more of an incentive to get home and wreak some pleasant chaos. muah! exactly!
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vipertm
Innocent Bystander
We only see in others what we see in ourselves[Mo0:2]
Posts: 11
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Post by vipertm on Apr 11, 2008 21:44:56 GMT -5
Hey I was re-reading issue 3 when I came upon another cryptic message that I didn't understand and I wasn't sure if it had already been discussed but Ethan says to Buffy:
"I'm more an antique roman than a dane."
Not sure if anyone can help put meaning behind it, but hopefully we can since we're at issue 13 now and more has been revealed since issue 3.
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Post by Emmie on Apr 11, 2008 21:54:53 GMT -5
Hey I was re-reading issue 3 when I came upon another cryptic message that I didn't understand and I wasn't sure if it had already been discussed but Ethan says to Buffy: "I'm more an antique roman than a dane." I thought it was a reference to the roman numerals box XXX for room number 30 where he was being imprisoned, cleverly disguised in a Shakespeare quote from Hamlet.
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Post by wenxina on Apr 11, 2008 23:02:06 GMT -5
Was also wondering if it had anything to do with the methods in which Hamlet and oh, I don't know, any of the crazy emperors who schemed and killed each other to rule? I mean Hamlet schemed a lot, but in the end, he did kill Claudius (I think it was Claudius), his uncle face to face. Whereas the roman stabbed from the back... metaphorically speaking. I had this whole thing about "betrayal from the closest" going on, but I kinda lost steam. Thoughts?
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Post by Emmie on Apr 12, 2008 11:24:40 GMT -5
I think that quote could be foreshadowing for Ethan too. Although, looking at literary analysis of the quote points towards Ethan being trustworthy.
Horatio says to Hamlet "I'm more an antique Roman than a Dane" to show his willingness to die alongside Hamlet. This quote is about showing fierce loyalty. Ethan saying this denotes virtue if you want to read it closely.
Which is weird because Ethan is the opposite of virtuous. The literary analysis probably went right over Buffy's head, but the roman numerals meaning clearly stuck.
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Post by Rebecca on Apr 12, 2008 13:27:11 GMT -5
I think that quote could be foreshadowing for Ethan too. Although, looking at literary analysis of the quote points towards Ethan being trustworthy. Horatio says to Hamlet "I'm more an antique Roman than a Dane" to show his willingness to die alongside Hamlet. This quote is about showing fierce loyalty. Ethan saying this denotes virtue if you want to read it closely. That's a really great reading of it, especially given the fact that later on he died, presumably for helping Buffy.
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Post by wenxina on Apr 12, 2008 15:21:09 GMT -5
I think that quote could be foreshadowing for Ethan too. Although, looking at literary analysis of the quote points towards Ethan being trustworthy. Horatio says to Hamlet "I'm more an antique Roman than a Dane" to show his willingness to die alongside Hamlet. This quote is about showing fierce loyalty. Ethan saying this denotes virtue if you want to read it closely. Which is weird because Ethan is the opposite of virtuous. The literary analysis probably went right over Buffy's head, but the roman numerals meaning clearly stuck. That's what I thought when I first read the bit... but heck, you said it, Ethan and trustworthy in the same sentence... *shrug* If Joss is feeling generous, maybe he's setting up all his minor villains for redemption. I would definitely have to roll my eyes there, though. Danes are treacherous? Hmm...
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Post by CowboyGuy on Apr 12, 2008 15:24:05 GMT -5
Just jumping in here, didn't read the earlier posts....
But isn't Dracula coined the 'Prince of Darkness'??
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Post by wenxina on Apr 12, 2008 16:17:54 GMT -5
That has been bandied around, yes. But I guess we're now on the topic for even more obscure (not that Drac is obscure) possibilities. In other words, we're pulling things out of the rear. But there have been some interesting ideas, and I guess there have been a few good arguments. All in good fun, eh?
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Post by Emmie on Apr 12, 2008 17:02:23 GMT -5
Tho Ethan could have been saying that line ironically about the "antique roman" because he wasn't trustworthy but it fit the double meaning for the numbers. Then he's saying he's not trustworthy...my head hurts. There's just not enough evidence to know.
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Post by wenxina on Apr 20, 2008 19:30:22 GMT -5
So, I was in the shower today (random thoughts hit me in the shower), and the whole prince thing came up. And it hit me... has anyone considered the possibility of the Prince being Satsu? Thread's too long for me to comb through right now, but here's the brief explanation for my gender-bending take on this: this whole prince thing reeks of fairy tales. I think I pointed out in Emmie's "Opening Lines" thread that the whole thing about Chosen was like a perversion of a fairy tale. Not in the Hillary Duff in starring role way, but that it reverses several conventions. But enough about that here, go look it up if curious. Anyway, what's the traditional role of the Prince in a fairy tale? Usually to rescue the damsel in distress. Occasionally, a kiss gets snuck in to oh, I don't know... wake her up from an enchanted sleep. In that light, Satsu qualifies, even if she's not exactly butch and charming (her hair's pretty fetching though). Thoughts?
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Post by themaleslayer on Apr 20, 2008 19:39:13 GMT -5
Just jumping in here, didn't read the earlier posts.... But isn't Dracula coined the 'Prince of Darkness'?? Yeah, but what if it weren't him, though?
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Post by Emmie on Apr 20, 2008 20:00:39 GMT -5
Anyway, what's the traditional role of the Prince in a fairy tale? Usually to rescue the damsel in distress. Occasionally, a kiss gets snuck in to oh, I don't know... wake her up from an enchanted sleep. In that light, Satsu qualifies, even if she's not exactly butch and charming (her hair's pretty fetching though). Thoughts? Thoughts = Clever. She is the prince in that issue, rescuing the damselBuffy in distress with a kiss just like in Sleeping Beauty. Plus Satsu is "following" Buffy around both professionally and personally. Oh clever. Plus we see in the magician tarot card that they are inverting the gender role there, replacing the male magician with a female slayer. And isn't Buffy's relationship with Satsu an inversion of what historically is expected of her. And over on Whedonesque there was discussion regarding Xander's thrall to Dracula being humorous because it inverts the expectations of the male role. Hmm, any other gender role inversion going on in Season 8?
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Post by wenxina on Apr 20, 2008 21:23:41 GMT -5
Well, I was treating the issue as separate from the tarot deck, but I guess the themes run through it all, so agreed. However, in light of out recent conversation about what we though Scott Allie's hint was, I thought it would be a perfect time for Buffy to you know, save the prince. I guess we'll have to wait till the final panel of #15 to find out, if we even find out then. Was there ever a timeframe given for when this prince business was supposed to play out? I don't remember ever reading about it. As for the Xander/Dracula business... well, Drac did decide to make Xander his thrall when he could just as easily done the same to Anya, Willow, Tara, or just about any female. I mean, lotsa attractive young neck about, but he decides on Xander. It can definitely be taken as the whole inversion of gender roles thing, since the Dracula of legend was known to be quite the casanova with the ladies. My personal take on it... Xander's character has always been the brunt of many demon-related jokes (falling for demon chicks, etc), and so since he's comic relief guy, let's make it him. That we're flouting tradition is just icing. Gender role inversion... you mean the whole women on top power to the chicas deal doesn't count?
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Post by curiouswolf on Apr 21, 2008 22:20:47 GMT -5
My candidates for who is the prince that might be rescued:
1) Satsu, "prince" for Buffy's "Sleeping Beauty"
2) Dracula, Prince of Darkness
3) If Dawn's pregnant then maybe her baby is the prince.
4) In "The Long Way Home" Giles talks to the leader of the demon dinosaur people who were attacked by Twilight agents who acts like she is a queen. This ruler might have a baby that could be called the prince of these creatures.
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Post by Rebecca on Apr 22, 2008 1:41:00 GMT -5
I'm in favor of the Satsu theory. She did awaken Buffy from sleep and almost blindly follows Buffy. I like the allegories there.
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angelsclone
Common Vampire
Live Free || Twi Hard[Mo0:6]
Posts: 54
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Post by angelsclone on Apr 22, 2008 15:02:19 GMT -5
maybe the prince is Angel....she was warning her about Angel being in Hell.A
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