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Post by wenxina on Aug 7, 2008 18:38:30 GMT -5
In TOYL part 2. Future Willow refers to Buffy as the "princess" That would make who the prince.... Are we sure she means Buffy? There's a possibility that it refers to Melaka. Anyway, that was just me playing devil's advocate. However, if Robin's "He follows you" comment was meant for Willow, I'd add Harth to the list of possible Prince candidates, seeing that he is following Willow right now. I've a whole complicated (and somewhat nonsensical, to me, that is) explanation to back it up, but to summarize my thoughts in a somewhat cohesive manner, if time travel is a piece of cake now, in order to save the Prince (and this is a pretty literal take on it), all you'd have to do is save Harth from being turned by Icarus. Change that one event, and the entire future's different, and since vampire Harth's actions are what brings about the existence of his own time, which in turn affect the past (see Willow's ripple theory), it may be the key to changing everything. Okay, so maybe that somewhat makes sense. What I'm having trouble grasping is the whole chicken or egg deal... but then again, time travel and the sort has never been a favorite pursuit of mine.
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Post by Emmie on Aug 7, 2008 20:42:55 GMT -5
That's a pretty radical concept, Xi. I'm not sure I completely understand but I like where you're going with it.
So Harth is the prince that Buffy needs to rescue. This is the first directly quoted reference to princess we've had of Buffy occuring in this issue, yes? I know Buffy has been alluded to being a princess before through the fairytale true love's kiss. It makes sense that the prince would appear in the arc that refers to Buffy as 'princess'.
Interesting. The question is - does time travel mean we can change events in the past and present? Or is the future of Fray's world already determined by the fact that a past Buffy went to the future than came back with knowledge of the future and acted on it. Is Fray's future world inevitable?
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iloveromy
Descendant of a Toaster Oven
[Mo0:10]
Posts: 684
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Post by iloveromy on Aug 7, 2008 21:00:04 GMT -5
Time travel questions hurt my brain.
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Post by CowboyGuy on Aug 7, 2008 21:11:22 GMT -5
I also find it very interesting the Harth is Buffy in his dreams. He referenced that he remembers fighting with Willow, because she is attached to someone Buffy loves. I wonder if this all has to do with Xander.
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iloveromy
Descendant of a Toaster Oven
[Mo0:10]
Posts: 684
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Post by iloveromy on Aug 7, 2008 21:11:42 GMT -5
Could Buffy have a brother? Could Twilight be Buffy's brother? But, eh, that would be too similar to Fray/Harth. Well with the buffyverse things always seem to repeat themselves. Spike and Angel both getting souls Lovers dying. etc etc
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Post by partyking09 on Aug 7, 2008 21:27:30 GMT -5
Mickey its very possible buffy has a brother,remember when joyce dies,and they say that Hank Summers moved to spain with his secretary,yea,its safe to say its definately possible buffy has a brother.And i mean obviously the reason Joyce and Hank divorced was because Hank had an Affair,as a matter of fact buffy said that what she thinks happend,so buffy could have a brother closer to her age maybe older than dawn or around her age.
Although its very possible buffy has a brother,i highly dought thats where Joss is going,then again,like i always say..u never knw with Joss.
The Question is whos the Queen if buffy is the Princess?!! Remember in that issue back in the faith arc i think where someone,from what we thought..obviously we were wrong,called buffy the Queen,but shes the princess.whos the queen? and im doubting harth to be the prince,so who other than him could be the prince?
maybe the prince is dawn suspected unborn child!Maybe since dawn is the key and has the same blood as buffy,maybe the baby will be this very powerful being!!
i mean think about it,where else could this who dawn changing into different things go?
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NileQT87
Common Vampire
Little Funky Angel[Mo0:3]
Posts: 78
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Post by NileQT87 on Aug 7, 2008 23:13:25 GMT -5
buffy is the "queen" of the slayers (hence all the elizabeth comparisons), not the princess. that would make all of her slayerettes the "princesses"... and harth would be the "prince" in that context--the male slayer. the only other person remotely close to being a male slayer is connor (though his power is very vampire-related). harth is the male slayer minus the strength--arguably, he's even more tied to the slayer legacy than melaka is. melaka has the demon-strength side and harth has the slayer line-linked visions and dreams. if going by the chess board formula of choosing who is who--angel is the best candidate for the white "king" label in the jossverse--which makes connor a "prince" in one sense. harth is more likely with buffy's placement as "queen" of the slayers.
the other options would be that "prince" could be any of buffy's own romantic relationships--which would make the "princess" correlation make more sense.
if buffy's the "queen", the "prince" is an offspring of the "king" or "queen"--both harth and connor fit in this context. if buffy is the "princess", the "prince" is a "brother" like xander or a romantic relationship like angel, riley, spike or satsu.
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NileQT87
Common Vampire
Little Funky Angel[Mo0:3]
Posts: 78
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Post by NileQT87 on Aug 7, 2008 23:29:02 GMT -5
she's been referred to the "queen" several times as well, rather than "princess". she's "queen of the slayers", there was the portrait of queen elizabeth I during buffy's sleeping beauty incident and faith confused the "queen" that gigi was referring to as queen elizabeth II, rather than gigi's calling buffy "the queen".
the fact that there were two queens (both elizabeths) specifically shown or referred to in the first two arcs, means that there is a strong record of buffy being compared to "queens". ironically, "buffy" is a derivative of the name "elizabeth".
there was an element of "kill the queen" to gigi's plan--in correlation to how you kill the queen of an ant/bug colony and you destroy the whole colony. it seems that killing buffy might remove the slayer spell from the other girls.
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Post by xmadxscientistx on Aug 8, 2008 0:28:50 GMT -5
Well, that would be bad, because she has to die eventually. Unless she becomes a Goddess of the Slayers, which I don't see coming. Joss is more a writer of tragedies than epic tales of heroism in my opinion. I'm thinking this is going to take a Macbeth esque turn.
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Post by partyking09 on Aug 8, 2008 1:50:38 GMT -5
Guys, we are focusing on only meleka and buffy,we have forgotten about Faith. sure u all knw im like the hugest faith fan out there,but i mean if there was ever a queen,it would be her.especially since buffys being called the princess.and for the fact that faith is the original only true slayer in buffys time,buffy died twice less u forget,and while joss or any of the writers have expressed this really,i dont think we should throw faith out of the situation just yet,because as we knw we are supposed to be seeing her soon,and what a way to make another debut right?!
as far as GiGi calling buffy the queen,idk,maybe,but she could have been after faith not knwing who faith was.this is possible although i wont disagree with anyone whos against the idea,im a little sketchy on it myself.But my point is we always throw faith out of the equation always thinking that when there is something talking about the slayer or anything like that it automatically goes to buffy,and i think the writers will eventually play with our minds with this if they already arent with the Queen thing. As far as i knw Faiths the one who can actually pass down power,ala s7,i think shes the vessel because again buffys been dead twice!and when she died the 2nd time there wasnt a slayer called. think about that...
and as far as conner being a "Male Slayer" ,no! especially when we are talking about him and harth. Harth technically is a male slayer,or pat slayer,only slayers get slayer dreams and visions,they might not have been intended to be his,but they are. everything happens for a reason.and i mean even though melakas powers were split between the 2 ,the gift belongs to them both!
I personally think that if harth doesnt die this arc one day him and melaka will have to work together,his dreams/her strength.maybe dark willow will get too out of control and this might happen.....
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Post by wenxina on Aug 8, 2008 2:00:48 GMT -5
That's a pretty radical concept, Xi. I'm not sure I completely understand but I like where you're going with it. So Harth is the prince that Buffy needs to rescue. This is the first directly quoted reference to princess we've had of Buffy occuring in this issue, yes? I know Buffy has been alluded to being a princess before through the fairytale true love's kiss. It makes sense that the prince would appear in the arc that refers to Buffy as 'princess'. Interesting. The question is - does time travel mean we can change events in the past and present? Or is the future of Fray's world already determined by the fact that a past Buffy went to the future than came back with knowledge of the future and acted on it. Is Fray's future world inevitable? In response to both you and iloveromy, time travel paradox, as El Diablo put it. I'm not quite sure I understand it entirely either... just trying to think out loud. But then again, Joss isn't exactly a science fiction writer (Alien: Resurrection barely counts), so whatever. If it makes a good story, I'll take it. But until we learn more about this ripple theory, I'm gonna sit on those questions for a bit.
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Post by Wyndam on Aug 8, 2008 12:33:46 GMT -5
I still think that Xander is the prince. I don't remember the exact quote from the issue, but ever since I read that line, "Prince" just screamed Xander for me. EDIT: I went back and found the post I made on the first page of this thread: I have a feeling it is Xander. "It follows you." Who is the only male that has followed Buffy and Willow throughout everything? Xander.
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Post by wenxina on Aug 8, 2008 12:43:09 GMT -5
I still think that Xander is the prince. I don't remember the exact quote from the issue, but ever since I read that line, "Prince" just screamed Xander for me. EDIT: I went back and found the post I made on the first page of this thread: I have a feeling it is Xander. "It follows you." Who is the only male that has followed Buffy and Willow throughout everything? Xander. Hmm... so I forgot that it said "it" not "he"... which besides being gender-neutral, is possibly a hint at it not having to be 100% human per se. I dunno... I was just adding Harth to the list, just because Robin was responding to Willow's comment about not following the bit about saving the Prince. I just took it to mean that whatever it was, it followed Willow. But tis true, she could've been speaking to both Buffy and Willow.
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Post by Wyndam on Aug 8, 2008 13:00:16 GMT -5
I still think that Xander is the prince. I don't remember the exact quote from the issue, but ever since I read that line, "Prince" just screamed Xander for me. EDIT: I went back and found the post I made on the first page of this thread: Hmm... so I forgot that it said "it" not "he"... which besides being gender-neutral, is possibly a hint at it not having to be 100% human per se. I dunno... I was just adding Harth to the list, just because Robin was responding to Willow's comment about not following the bit about saving the Prince. I just took it to mean that whatever it was, it followed Willow. But tis true, she could've been speaking to both Buffy and Willow. Good point. I've never thought of it this way. I was always just going with the fact that a Prince is usually male, although I never even thought about the "it" part in relation to the fact that the Prince may not even be human. Harth is certainly an interesting guess when looking at it this way. If the comment was just addressed to Willow, then perhaps Oz could be included in the speculation as well? He's certainly not entirely human anymore and could be classified as an "it," plus he was certainly loyal to Willow in the past, PLUS he's also coming back soon. Interesting stuff to think about.
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brandonr
Potential Slayer
"That's mine." "Well you're about to get it back."[Mo0:0]
Posts: 168
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Post by brandonr on Aug 8, 2008 17:54:55 GMT -5
Taking Gigi's comment about Buffy being "The Queen" and the earlier allusions to Buffy being a Queen, along with FDW's comment about Buffy being the Princess is a bit contradictory, if you ask me. I think it's more like Buffy is the Queen, and Melaka might be the Princess, which would make Harth the Prince. The whole line about "the princess coming from the forest" or whatever it was could just be a misnomer to make us think that Willow is talking about Buffy coming from the past into the future, but it could mean any number of things: Fray coming out of her safe zone of the city to finally confront Harth; Fray getting rid of some mental road block that she and we are unaware of to confront Harth; etc etc etc.
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Post by xmadxscientistx on Aug 8, 2008 23:29:34 GMT -5
I keep thinking of Enchanted every time I hash this out.
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spurtyknowledge
Rogue Demon Hunter
I'm wired to the world.
"She told them that the only grace they could have was the grace they could imagine."[Mo0:25]
Posts: 411
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Post by spurtyknowledge on Aug 10, 2008 11:22:27 GMT -5
I still think that Xander is the prince. I don't remember the exact quote from the issue, but ever since I read that line, "Prince" just screamed Xander for me. EDIT: I went back and found the post I made on the first page of this thread: Hmm... so I forgot that it said "it" not "he"... which besides being gender-neutral, is possibly a hint at it not having to be 100% human per se. I dunno... I was just adding Harth to the list, just because Robin was responding to Willow's comment about not following the bit about saving the Prince. I just took it to mean that whatever it was, it followed Willow. But tis true, she could've been speaking to both Buffy and Willow. Hmm, I actually thought Robin's "No, it follows you" line to mean that the any future event, such as rescuing the prince, will eventually come to, "it" being time. Basically Willow wasn't able to understand the comment, and Robin is saying that it doesn't matter since rescuing the prince is determined... it follows her. Kinda like "I thought you hadn't met."/"We do later on." conversation before it. As for the Prince identity, I'm standing by either Harth, Xander, Riley, or Kenny.
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iloveromy
Descendant of a Toaster Oven
[Mo0:10]
Posts: 684
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Post by iloveromy on Aug 10, 2008 11:59:19 GMT -5
Maybe Harth gets his soul back...
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Post by wenxina on Aug 10, 2008 12:12:55 GMT -5
Hmm, I actually thought Robin's "No, it follows you" line to mean that the any future event, such as rescuing the prince, will eventually come to, "it" being time. Basically Willow wasn't able to understand the comment, and Robin is saying that it doesn't matter since rescuing the prince is determined... it follows her. Kinda like "I thought you hadn't met."/"We do later on." conversation before it. As for the Prince identity, I'm standing by either Harth, Xander, Riley, or Kenny. That's a really original take on it... and I kinda like it. And considering the non-linearity of how time works in the ToYL arc, it's a pretty radical concept (to quote Emmie ) but makes sense, as it does seem that time does indeed follow Willow, as in the events come out of the wake of her actions. Cool! Thanks for sharing your thoughts on this!
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spurtyknowledge
Rogue Demon Hunter
I'm wired to the world.
"She told them that the only grace they could have was the grace they could imagine."[Mo0:25]
Posts: 411
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Post by spurtyknowledge on Aug 10, 2008 12:25:10 GMT -5
Hmm, I actually thought Robin's "No, it follows you" line to mean that the any future event, such as rescuing the prince, will eventually come to, "it" being time. Basically Willow wasn't able to understand the comment, and Robin is saying that it doesn't matter since rescuing the prince is determined... it follows her. Kinda like "I thought you hadn't met."/"We do later on." conversation before it. As for the Prince identity, I'm standing by either Harth, Xander, Riley, or Kenny. That's a really original take on it... and I kinda like it. And considering the non-linearity of how time works in the ToYL arc, it's a pretty radical concept (to quote Emmie ) but makes sense, as it does seem that time does indeed follow Willow, as in the events come out of the wake of her actions. Cool! Thanks for sharing your thoughts on this! I think that especially now with the Time of Your Life arc, Joss is working with the concept that time is non-linear. "Ripples, child." Thank you, like the lot here, I'm really invested in season eight and can't wait to see where Joss takes it.
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